Are you being serious with this? Is it April 1?
Need to learn about Audio Research
Still exploring amps and preamps to go with my Magnepan 3.7i.
I've always heard about Audio Research being a great match, but I'm not familiar with the brand at all.
I'll need to shop the used market since the new gear is way out of my price range.
I am looking for a high power (100wpc +) amp and a preamp that has remote control. I'd like the preamp to be tube, and the amp could be either solid state or tube.
I don't know at what point in the model lineup remote control was added, but it appears most of the older gear did not have a remote.
Any AR experts here?
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Preamp: Schiit Freya+ (tube) or Schiit Kara ((SS)..comes with remote control https://www.schiit.com/products/freya-f Power amp: Schiit Tyr monoblocks (SS, 350 watts @ 4 ohms) or Schiit Wotan (SS, 400 watts @ 4 ohms) https://www.schiit.com/products/tyr https://www.schiit.com/products/wotan Schiit is a greater match than Audio Research for Magnepans and affordable for dudes with delicate wallets.
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Traudio, ARC is indeed one of the big names in hi-end gear. If you have a trusted tech who has experience in repairing ARC gear, I say go for it. However, if you don't, you will likely be waiting a long time for possible repairs (if needed), and you'll pay through the nose for ARC to do them. I would honestly go in a different direction...maybe Rogue, Raven, or Quicksilver. A great combo, btw, would be the Quicksilver line stage and the 100W Rogue amp. Plenty of muscle, reliable, and won't cost a fortune to repair if ever needed. |
The late Roger Modjeski (of Music Reference & Beveridge fame) started out as a tech before either of those companies existed. He said he always hated working on ARC gear. It was always way over engineered and difficult to work on. YMMV, but I think there are probably plenty of great combinations to go with Maggie speakers. What is your budget for amp & pre? |
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bojack,
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deep_333
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Originally, the two companies marketed together. This was in the era -early ’70s- when the first generation of "high end" equipment was being made. (I distinguish that era- which included JG Holt’s Stereophile, erratically published out of Elwyn, Pa. and the emergence of The Absolute Sound and Harry Pearson as two of the leading proponents of the subjective school of listening/evaluation, from what I label as the (earlier) golden era--Saul Marantz tube gear before he sold to Superscope, KLH 9s (double pairs), Quad 57s (double pairs eventually using Decca Ribbons and a Hartley woofer), old Bozak ConcertMasters, early Fisher and HH Scott tube gear, McIntosh tube gear, etc.) I was an early proponent of ARC and owned their gear starting in 1975, after having heard and compared it to other high end equipment in 1973-75. The marriage of the two was, to some degree for marketing purposes--ARC was a Magnepan distributor in the early days. It was common to see the big Tympani (IU [?]), a very large multi-panel array demonstrated with ARC tube gear and often, ARC dealers carried Magnepan. Both companies seem to have soldiered on through the years, despite considerable changes in the marketplace. ARC was one of the few to promote tube amplification in an era focused on high power solid state amps and specification battles over things like "transient intermodulation distortion" and "damping factor" and "slew rate" when the typical ARC demo consisted of playing a record and letting you hear what their gear could do. It usually impressed in its sheer musicality at the time when other systems, particularly solid state, had an electronic "glaze" and did not sound as convincingly real. I have an old "sell sheet" from one of my first ARC systems, circa 1975, that included both ARC and Magnepan product listings and prices. I seem to recall bi- and tri-amplification but only remember the really big tube amps coming from ARC a bit later. Their earlier efforts, after total redo/mods of Dynaco equipment, were typically 60-75 watt stereo basic amps. (I’m working from memory here). As mentioned, the market has changed considerably since then. There are a lot of different tube offerings, with different circuit configurations and "tube audio" became more than the tiny niche of hold outs and audio outlaws to become a recognized thing, along with greater power. I stopped on the ARC path, not because of any problem or issue with the company (though the sound of the products changed over the years, from tubey warmth, to a period of "bleached" sound, to the era of the Reference series); I went in the direction of extremely high efficiency horns and low powered SETs. Magnepans are power hogs. At least the bigger older ones were. And that means a pretty powerful tube amp. I’m not going to pretend to be current on either company’s offerings because I’m not. But I think I’ve given you a capsule history of their origins and early relationship having been there at the time. PS: not to be a pedant, but Audio Research used to be referred to as ARC because the first company to offer the "acoustic suspension" speaker and the original suspension turntable, headed by Edgar Villchur, was known as "AR." Today, I’m not sure that brand is still active. Good luck and happy hunting, there are a lot of people on this board with experience in both ARC and Magneplanar. |
I have owned one or more Audio Research components for over forty years. Never needing any adjustments or repair. Over time as I better understood what music really sounds like and more able to afford top notch equipment moved to all Audio Research. You can see my system under my user ID. Audio Research produces some of the best, most reliable, audiophile equipment in the business and has been a trusted name for fifty years. |
I used to own one of the ARC amps from what many consider the 'golden age' of ARC...the mid to late 80's. This amp was the ARC D70Mk2..and it was one of the best sounding amps I have ever heard. Today, this amp would still be competitive with some of the best on the market. BUT...and here's the thing, it was as noted above, not that easy to work on if it had an issue, and more importantly, it had a criminal protocol if one had to bias the tubes. ( which was required every so often!) Criminal as to the potential risk for electrocution! Today's ARC's are far superior ( but not necessarily in SQ), but they come at a cost. |
My experience pretty much mirrors @whart I well remember hearing the big Maggies with all ARC setups, one of my early references for high end sound, this in 1970's. I only owned a single ARC piece, this SP9MkIII, very disappointing, one of their 'bleached' out offerings.
I too migrated towards horns and SET amps, this gradual move over a number of decades and experience with a variety of amp topologies. I don't doubt you'd find some more recent ARC offerings to match well with the Maggies, my issue is the more powerful the tube amp the greater chance for reliability issues and expensive repairs due to added complexity. High power tube amps put out a lot of heat, heat is the enemy of reliability. |
This is no way to buy audio equipment. If you're looking to fail and be unhappy with your system, this is a good way to do it. You have a pair of Magnepan 3.7's. Look at the recommendations you're getting. All are completely different and everyone knows they're right. Its very easy to go out and buy good components. The problem is you can buy all good components but the system can sound like crap because they don't work well together. The 3.7's are not forgiving speakers to work with. You can't rely on other peoples opinions. If you happen to get it right, it will be completely accidental. The only way to move forward that makes any sense is to go back to when you auditioned your speakers. What kind of electronics were they using, and what makes you want to buy something different? You need to have some type of reference before you start. And if this was an impulse purchase, you may want to cut your losses now and just get a speaker that's more forgiving to work with. |
@sns Great point about heat being the enemy of reliability. Not only that, but also the fact that the more heat an amp gives off, the quicker the room heats up. In certain climates that is very undesirable. Living in S.California, I do not want a heat engine in my listening room. |
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My history with ARC dates back to 1973, when I got one of the systems @whart referred to above: a pair of Magneplanar Tympani T-I’s bi-amped with Dual 75 and Dual 51 power amps, an SP-3 pre-amp in front (I now own a pair of the Tympani T-IVa’s, a magnificent loudspeaker. But it requires a huge room, which I currently don’t have, so they’re boxed up). That was obviously a long time ago, and modern ARC electronics are very different from the 70’s stuff. Some people have no problems with their pieces of ARC, others do. If you go with ARC, buy from a local authorized dealer, one with at least some experience with the company’s products. Owning ARC can be like owning an Italian sports car. How loud do you listen, and how big is your room? One way to go is to get a tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp. You’ve probably heard Maggies benefit from a high current amp, and the MG3.7i is no exception. A fair number of people have found happiness with the Sanders Magtech amp mated with their Maggies. If you add a pair of subs to the 3.7's, that will greatly reduce the amount of power you need for the Maggies, and increase their sound quality (if the subs are good enough). Removing the bottom octave (20Hz-40Hz) from the speakers and their power amp cuts the power needs in half!
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@daveyf: When I was living in Palm Desert (115-120 degrees fahrenheit in the Summer) my system included a pair of Atma-Sphere M60s, with a total of 16 output tubes. It's a great sounding amp, but they put out a LOT of heat! Roger Modjeski recommended 18" or more of clearance above his power amps, to prolong tube and electronics parts lifespan.
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"I didn't audition this pair specifically, but I've heard them in the past and have always wanted a pair. That's a fairly risky choice on your part. You did say you're on a budget. Either way, its your decision to make. I would ask you 1 question, though. How many hours a day to you think about your system? Most of us spend hundreds of hours just doing research and thinking about all the different options to consider. I can tell you that a lot of audiophiles would kill to have a real dealer only 2.5 hours away. But that's no one's business but your own. If you can only go by reviews and opinions, here's my thoughts. Don't even think about getting tubes. Especially ARC. I've owned several pairs of Magnepans and components from ARC and both brands can deliver good sound. The problem is Magnepans tend to push amps hard and ARC is known for pushing their tubes hard to get their high power ratings. You can have an ARC tube amp for a long time and never have problems, or it can blow up like my VT-100 did, and pieces flew out of the top of the amp and hit me in the face. And the speakers I had on the amp were not hard to drive. There are also a few things to consider that I don't believe anyone else has brought up. There's reasons why Magnepan owners opt for powerful solid state amps over tubes. Here's 2 of them. Amps sound different depending on how hard they have to work. An amp can sound great on an easy to drive speaker, but when you push it hard, it can sound terrible. People making amp recommendations are doing so based on their experience, not yours, with your equipment. Also, planar speakers are able to overcome some weaknesses that are sometimes associated with solid state amps. A typical, decent quality solid state amp can sometimes sound lacking on traditional speakers. Adding a tube amp can open up the sound and make everything sound bigger and more lifelike. The drivers on planar speakers are huge, not like smaller, point source sounding speaker drivers. This forces the scale and image size to be much bigger. The speaker is able to do what you would typically rely on the electronics to do. If you want to use tubes and do it the right way, you can, but it will cost you. Given what you're trying to do on a budget, I would be looking at solid state. Belles is a great choice, US made, excellent build quality and price. Parasound is another great solid state option. Historically, Bryston, but their prices have been going up a lot in recent years. There are plenty of other, as well. If you would consider a class D amp, give The Cable Company a call. They specialize in lending out demo units of everything they sell. Big tube and SS power amps are hard to send out for demos, but they will send you some class D options. They're also very good to deal with. Even though they are a shipping based retailer, they have some of the best customer service you'll ever come across.
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@bdp24 Living in Palm Desert pretty much guarantees that you will be using AC during the summer months. When you add a tube amp like you owned with that many tubes, you will be running AC full bore. Not what i want to hear ( or feel) in my listening room. |
Audio Research (AR) was really the main brand to originally be used for Demo's of the Magneplaner's. AR and Magnepan had a collaboration when they first started selling their speakers. I remember going to audio shops back in the 70's and those 2 brands were always together and sounded magnificent. I think AR is an excellent brand but not necessarily the best value for the money as they are very expensive. You can still get excellent sound with other brands for your 3.7i much cheaper. |
ARC in the 1970’s was at that time relatively reasonably priced. In ’73 the SP-3 pre-amp was $595, the D-75 $995, the D-51 $695. It was when the Mark Levinson brand appeared that the price wars started, as well as "all out" assaults on advancing the state-of-the art, such as the SP-10 pre-amp, and D-150 and then D-79 power amps. For a long time ARC had both somewhat modestly-priced entry level products (LS pre-amps. I paid $2995 for an LS-2B in the 90’s) and premium models (the Reference line) with premium prices. Now even the LS pre-amps carry a hefty price tag.
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Agree that tube pre + SS amp is a good “warm” direction to go from the Hegel H390. A GanFet amp, which is similar to a warm sounding SS, may be a good option. Krell K-300i integrated has “150Wpc into 8 ohms and 300Wpc into 4 ohms, with its iBias technology allowing the amp to deliver up to the first 90W in class-A (warmth) —"without the excessive heat and power consumption of traditional Class-A designs,- (Stereophile)
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Good decision. There are many maggie owners who have had a tube amp on the tweet/mids and a solid state on the bass panels but you don’t have that biamping option with the 3.7’s, not without much more extensive modification at least.
That should work out, let us know how that compares to the Hegel. What would the pre be with it though? |
I attended the Southwest Audiofest in Dallas this weekend and visited the Audio Research room. They are releasing some new products in a couple of months. I don't recall all of them but there will be two solid state amps, a couple of tube amps and I think a new integrated amp. I think all of these will be at the "lower" end of their price range of products. I still own a the LS-15 line stage which is nearly 30 years old. I had it modified/upgraded about 10 years ago and it is still sounding sweet. I am curious about one of their newer SS amps. I also owned their 100.2 power amp a number of years ago but regrettably sold it. I've been impressed with the quality of their products and customer service. |
I bought my ARC gear in the 70s after William Z. Johnson brought the SP-1 preamp and Dual 75 to Milwaukee for an audition. Those days are long gone! We treated Bill to a prime rib dinner to thank him, and bought the units through Opus-2 stereo store in Memphis, Tennessee. At the time, I had KLH Nine speakers and later Infinity Servo Static -1s (with an ARC Dual 51 bi-amped driving the tweeters). Still have those amps and preamp to this day, along with a double pair of KLH Nines. Great sound all these years later! ARC amps from that era are still available and serviceable by ARC. |
I just got back from the southwest audiofest-great show by the way- and the ARC Folks did a nice program on the history and future of the company. It was very interesting. ARC featured some brand new solid state products in its room that maybe haven’t even hit the market yet. Affordable pricing on these new products |
I had 3.7’s a few years ago. As has been referenced I heard them at the dealers paired with ARC and they sounded great. That was indeed a classic pairing. I bought them but I couldn’t afford the ARC at the time so I went with classe integrated that sounded good but really didn’t have the power needed. I eventually bought a Pass int-250 which sounded lovely and had the necessary power to play these power hungry speakers. That purchase was started with reading I believe absolute sounds best of show review of the 3.7 with pass amps. I called Reno hi-fi which was the big Pass dealer at the time. He steered me to the Int 250 when I couldn’t quite pay for the recommended pass based on the review ( they were 16-18k ) and the 250 was around 10k. It was a great choice which served me very well.You should get subs which will take the speakers to another level. You don’t mention a budget but you can find used integrated 250s for 4 to 6 grand. |
If you do a search you can find Mike Fremer's video tour of the ARC factory. With the recent acquisition by Acora little if anything has changed. Dave Gordon can be seen in Fremer's video doing listening-tests of each and every Ref Series amp that leaves the building and he is using.....Magnepans just as ARC has utilized for sound testing for many decades. l I am a long time ARC owner and fan. I believe that the preamp is the heart and soul of a top tier audio system and few will argue that ARC has built a reputation for building some of the best preamps out there. I fully accept the argument that ARC amps can be a pain and arguably don't sound special but please keep in mind that if you want to guaranty optimum synergy between preamp and amp, you have to think hard about pairing an ARC preamp with an ARC amp. And....the latest series of Ref amps feature self-biasing (finally) and soft-start circuitry (finally!!!) which makes then more reliable than ever. Also consider that not all tube preamps and amps are fully balanced from input to output and ARC preamps and amps are in the Ref Series and also keep in mind that all ARC gear continues to be built entirely by hand in the MN factory. My biggest criticism of ARC is that they went all-in with the KT150 tube which has not proven to be a reliable tube due to terrible QC at the New Sensor factory. I also join with the others above that ARC charges outrageous amount for matched sets of replacement tubes and for service. Perhaps that is why they are once again coming out with SS amps. |
@traudio That can happen if the power supply for the class D is under-built. FWIW there are class D amps now that challenge the best tube amps for smoothness and detail without glare. |
I have been a customer of Magnepan and ARC since 1978. I currently on a set of 3.7x Maggies. ( I LOVE THEM!! ) I currently drive my Maggies with both a set of Bryston 7BSST Monoblocks and an ARC VT130SE Amp. Here is my 45 years of experience with driving Maggies: In the 70s ARC and Maggie were "made for each other" because Jim Winey (Mag) and Bill Johnson (ARC) were besties and neighbors. Both men were cutting edge innovators. ARC gear is "over engineered" as one person posted- which I take as a compliment. Kind of like Mercedes S class cars are "over engineered". ARC gear is not for a novice. At least the older models aren't. Tube biasing was challenging on the early ARC units. Of course MANY audiophiles were technically capable back in the day. Not so now. (Think of millennials with a 4 speed). The newest ARC gear is self-biasing and easier on the tubes. Pretty much zero maintenance. As for ARC service I learned that your local guitar amp repairmen (findable through The Guitar Center at the mall) can and do perform service on ARC units. My local guy loves working on them because they are what he calls "Massive American Cool" As Maggies go your 3.7i are not as current hungry as the early Maggies. IMO You need 200 tube watts. I love the tube smoothness and holography on the mids/highs. I can't hear a difference between tubes and solid state on the bass. You can get a set of ARC Reference 250s used these days between 6-8K of 9-10K for a set of Reference 250SE. (Don't be fooled by the asking prices. Gear sells for 25-35% of retail these days) If I were your HiFi counselor I'd say the REF 250s would thrill you for decades. I'd use a used Ref 5 or 6 preamp as they are arguably "straight wire with gain" and don't color tamper with the input signal. I absolutely love my 3.7s. When I use my Bryston T-10 8-way line array cone speakers I feel like I'm sporting with a hot new girl while thinking of my favorite girl. In the end your system should make YOU happy. Work toward that while ignoring the "noise" of other's opinions. Mine included.
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I don't quite agree with this, fwiw. The Ref 6 when running balanced does something to the input to make it more spatially dense and atmospheric. You can go round and round as to whether it simply preserves something in the recording lost by other preamps or adds something-I believe it is the latter. Then again, I always thought the "straight wire with gain" is one of the most meaningless cliche's among the thousands in audio. Two preamps can be "straight wires with gain" and yet sound completely different, particularly if one if solid state and one is tubed. |
It's hard to argue with you here Smith. There is a little magic in the Ref 6. To my ear the 5SE sounds better- but I like French Vanilla and you may like Rum Raisin. Alternatively, a Ref 5 or 6 are most like a straight wire compared to many- ie: a McIntosh which colors quite a lot. I like their house sound but it does indeed color densely. |
It’s nice to read about folks who owned the gear (from) back in the early days. I guess I’m getting up there- audio history is fascinating to me, and there is so much cool, offbeat equipment that is lost to time. I’m glad ARC is still around. Special tip of the hat to @kisawyer2 for a great first post! |
Another longtime ARC pre user here; the LS7 in my system has been its heart and soul since 1997(!). Never replaced a tube, and I turn it off only when I'm going to be gone from the house for more than a couple of days. I use a Classe CA-D200, a class D model they made a while ago (200WPC @ 8 ohms, 400 into 4 ohms). Love the combo with my ML ESLs (not Maggies, but they love power nonetheless). |
@fsonicsmith
This phrase was coined by Quad founder Peter Walker, who built valve and solid state amplifiers and separate pre-amplifiers, as well as electrostatic loudspeakers. Far from a cliche, it was his design goal for power amplifiers. On the other hand, his pre-amplifiers had multiple controls to allow the user to ameliorate playback of poor recordings, and were never "straight wires with gain". He was incensed when a journalist suggested his valve designs sounded different from his solid state designs, and organised the best controlled comparison I have ever read about. These is a topic here Audiogon Discussion Forum
I cannot find the original paper, but three Quad models were involved (add the 405). The speakers were Yamaha, at the insistence of the journalist who later withdrew from the listening sessions - and audio journalism! This listening panel comprised renowned British audiophiles and the tests were staged over two days. Each blind test randomly compared two amplifier types (which could also be the same) and each panel member was asked to rate the sound quality the same, better or worse. The results were statistically inconclusive for all panel members - nobody could reliably hear a real difference. The amplifiers had much lower distortion than the speakers! |
ARC amps are designed with no fuses in the circuits, so when a tube blows (not uncommon in tube amps), it takes with it a "sacrificial" resistor. That means a trip to the dealer (or ARC), unless you are handy with a soldering gun.