The convenience of streaming is fantastic. The sound is great as well. Then you have that ONE record you play and it turns it all the way you describe. It's not every record. It's not EVERY time but it's real.
My Analog Journey - Opinions Sought
When I first started out in this hobby 10 years ago, my first source was a Bluesound Node 2. Eventually I upgraded to a Lumin T2 which was a nice step up in sound quality and I’ve been happy with it ever since.
Around 2021 or so I decided I want to explore the analog side of things. With the guidance of this forum, I settled on a Technics SL1210GR, AudioTechnica VM760SLC cart, and a Herron VTPH1 phono stage.
Somewhere along the line I decided that I preferred the convenience of streaming and there my turntable sat. Collecting dust as they say.
Fast forward to two weeks ago. I decided that maybe it was time to start letting some of this gear go that I’m not using. The Herron was first up on the chopping block, but something told me I better turn this thing on and make sure it still works.
So, I hooked everything up. Dropped on Everybody Digs Bill Evans, a recording with which I’m well familiar. Well, I almost cried at how good it sounded. <Insert all the flowery audiophile language here>. The background was blacker. The tone richer, more air and separation around the instruments within the soundstage, and the imaging is more precise.
The difference between my digital and analog rig could not be more apparent. I heard someone say on this forum that you need to spend much more on digital to obtain the same results as analog; or maybe it was the other way around?
I am absolutely hooked on vinyl right now and don’t see myself turning back. Although I do see myself looking into MC carts in the not so distance future.
Thanks to everyone on this forum that shares their knowledge so freely. Comments welcome on future upgrades or anything else.....
Cheers,
Joe
48 responses Add your response
The sound quality you retrieve from vinyl versus digital is competely dependent on your components. Spending more money on the correctly chosen digital will eliminate the difference in sound quality. Sometimes, it is just swapping components to get the same sound. Unless you really like fiddling with vinyl and all the extra cost. I would sell your analog rig and carefully upgrade your digital rig to achieve the sound quality you want. |
Funny how streaming fans like to hang around here. Perhaps they think they are missing something... I have to add the obvious comment: there are recordings so good that they stand out almost whatever you play them on. But if you know that recording well from streaming it and it is that much better on a relatively simple vinyl rig, you are entitled to draw your conclusions. |
@tomic601 +1 on the Hana ML. For the money, I think it's a great cartridge.
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I'm an old guy who grew up on vinyl, CD, and reel-to-reel. I've been streaming my music exclusively for about the past four years or so. Whenever I attend audio shows or visit my local audio shops and they play vinyl or CD, of course, it all sounds just wonderful. Still, when I'm at the shows or audio shops, I just smile at the thought that, I managed to put together such an incredible sounding streaming only audio system, that's so very satisfying to me, I still have no desire to return to either vinyl or CD. But, that's just me. The world of high end audio includes vinyl, CD, streaming, reel-to-reel, etc., or whatever tickles your fancy. It's a wonderful world!!! Happy listening. |
FYI. I have an outstanding vinyl rig... top contemporary Linn LP12, Koetus Rosewood Signature cartridge, Audio Research Reference 3SE Phonostage. You can see my system under my UserID. Absolutely top rate and fabulous sounding, I’ll play a great audiophile recording... and think, wow... no way my streamer can compete with that. So I’ll find the same recording on Qobuz and low and behold... it sounds just as great... sometimes better if it was far down the list of pressings. I’ve stopped the comparisons and just listen to streaming as my great collection of albums and turntable collect dust. Since I have a 2,000 album vinyl collection, containing many audiophile recordings and mostly pristine and great albums. I may go ahead and invest another $12K on a cartridge, which will allow my analog leg to pull ahead again... it will add additional detail, not really change the tonal balance. Without my album collection I wouldn't consider putting any more money in my analog section. I'd put it in the rest of my system. |
As someone, like many here, who have gone through the various ways of listening to music from my first Sears 3-in-1 stereo system I got from Santa at age 8 to a rack system in college to a striped back system of a receiver and CD player to purely streaming for years (starting with low-quality MP3s ripped and traded with friends) while DJing in grad school, until now. As a middle-aged gGen Xer, I never really got rid of my vinyl and CDs through all my listening stages of life, I would recommend not going with the either/or approach. Keep the vinyl rig and the streaming rig. I still buy music in digital, CD and vinyl format. And enjoy listening to all 3 formats all the time. Sometimes to compare sources, sometimes for critical/purposeful listening and as wallpaper for around-the-house activities. Enjoy both for what they offer. I've made the decision that for some artists I want to collect, I choose a format. For example, I'm a big New Pornographers fan and have albums in all 3 formats but the digital copies were never great. So I choose to reinvest in getting their catalog all in vinyl. Every album came w/ a digital download so I have copies for streaming convenience. For other artists, they may only be in the digital or CD format domain so I go that route. I won't make recommendations on gear because my price range and needs are very different from yours and others on here. Some with deeper knowledge and experience in niche/boutique brands I'm only now hearing about. But I will say, don't paint yourself into one corner or the other. Be a music-first audiophile! And enjoy your collection on the vinyl and streaming set up you have. Don't limit your experiences. Variety is the spice of life!
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I listen to streaming, CDs (got a new CD transport in the last year or so), and vinyl, and all of the formats, utilizing my well sorted system, sound astonishingly good. They don't compete with each other and seem to get along. I have lots of great CDs and vinyl collected for many decades with no desire to dump any of it to just stream...the gear doesn't care, the CDs and vinyl just sit and wait for me to listen to them and don't seem to mind my streaming (they're inanimate objects by the way), and it all provides music somehow...who knew? |
Thanks for sharing. I think Going back to vinyl triggered your love for listening to vinyl. I find different platforms can sound different depending on the source and setup. I started with 45s, then 8 track, albums, cassettes, CDs and now streaming. I find the portability and convenience factors matter the most to me. On top of that streaming has me listening to new music and new to me old music for the price of a CD or album a month. My main system now is the best I’ve ever had. It’s amazing how good it sounds streaming whatever song I want to play. I still play CDs for physical music but only stuff I can’t find online. It’s a great time to love music and stereo equipment however you choose to listen. Things members of this site appreciate and share. |
In my journey, I finally decided to stop selling gear that I liked but tired of and put back in the box. It costs nothing to keep it, it's properly stored so it doesn't go bad, and when the 'something different' bug bites me, I have gear on hand rather than adding more to the already long list of gear that has gone before. I will inevitably hook something up and think, "damn, I forgot how good that sounds." Besides, it's never a bad idea to have spares on hand. |
Thanks for the great responses, everyone! In a forum where opinions vary on almost everything, it's refreshing to see the Hana receive such widespread praise. |
@audionoobie I wasn't referring to you! You are more than welcome here. |
@dogberry ok cool, thx man! |
ghdprentice,
I am in a similar place as you are, except all of my gear is fairly modern TOTL CJ tube equipment. I too have a well appointed modern LP12 and it is sporting a Grado Aeon 3 cartridge. Although I have just North of 3K vinyl LP's my wife laughs that there are really on 50 or so in regular. The sound is wonderful. However, in the never ending search to get my digital (currently using Cary DMS 600) closer to that of my analog set up, I have earmarked $15K- $20K . That may sound lie a lot to some people, but my LP12 has that amount in it without the $6K cartridge included. I have two other TT's: a new Rega P10 with a Transfiguration Proteus D cartridge, and a Nottingham System Deck with a Koetsu RSP. At 64 years old with a progressing retina disease, I find it easier to have several TT's set up which I can swap in and out rather than changing a cartridge on a tonearm. From an ease of use, and an economics view point, digital gives a good bit more value. |
+1 for both posts from @ghdprentice . My experience is identical to his and I could not have articulated it better. I only use my vinyl rig when I have a recording not on Qobuz, which is not often, or if in a nostalgic mood to play a rare record like a red vinyl 78 of Enrico Caruso or a special edition Benny Goodman record. |
I've done serious seat-time with state-of-the-art digital source equipment (i.e. streaming & CDs) and relatively affordable good quality analogue source equipment (i.e. non-Mikey Fremer astronomically priced TTs; phono stages; carts; etc.) and continue to prefer well recorded & engineered vinyl or analogue sound over digital. Like vinyl, digital recordings can be poorly mastered & engineered, as well, and streaming sources can vary quite a bit in sound quality. So, when equalizing for such variables as much as possible (i.e. comparing apples to apples, oranges to oranges, and using clean vinyl), my ears still prefer vinyl over digital. This is certainly not to say that well sourced & recorded digital isn't as good. it's just different. To my ears, digital is almost too clean, too perfect. It's missing something, something I find difficult to describe, a feel of realism or actually being there, at the musical performance. This will seem totally paradoxical but maybe it's the absence of the feeling of ambient sound on vinyl, even though clean records on a good analogue system come from a totally black background. I don't feel that with digital. It's either sound or nothingness. On the other hand, maybe it's just because my ears are children of the 50s & 60s and grew up with vinyl. Maybe it's neuroaudiological conditioning. At any rate, I listen to and thoroughly enjoy both digital and analogue realms. Digital, of course, is far more convenient, especially when entertaining guests, and much less demanding of your time & attention (e.g. flipping records, cleaning styli, dusting off records, cuing up tracks, etc.). For those of you who disagree and much prefer digital over analogue, that's OK! It's still a free country ... for now anyway. VIVE LA DIFFERANCE! After all, it's really all about the love of music, isn't it? |
While I still have two turntables (cheap) I got rid of 90% of my vinyl years ago. I do however still have a CDT that I use every once in a while to listen to the 2600ish CD’s I still have. I do have about 2200 albums ripped on a NAS that I listen to every now and then, but I am really getting lazy and streaming more and more. |
OP before I became involved on analog seriously. I bought good sacd players Marantz Sacd players SA 10 and Ruby . Thinking that sacd is very close to vynil? Not until I heard a very good analog set up to my friend house . He is using Lyra delis MC with SME 10 tonearm.I knew there is something special on vynil then that digital don’t have.i fell in love on vynil . I end up spending more than 20k for my 2 turntables and phono preamps and cabling. |
I would say that I've invested a similar and decent amount in digital and analog front ends and I like and use both. To me one of the advantages of digital is that media can be less expensive with the cost of CD's vs LP's. I've tried streaming but I don't have time for exploring new music and will probably sign up for Qobuz once I retire which would also give me access to more hi res. To me digital sounds more clear, but ultimately LP's sound much better and have this added dimension that sounds more real to me. I have a lot of music on my NAS that I listen to with Roon, but given the choice I'd much rather listen to an LP. I would add my system to my profile but haven't been able to figure out how to do that. |
Soundsmith has great info about cartridges I’ve never heard the Hana ML, I see many here choose it. Someone: bring yours to Plainfield, NJ, let’s hear it here!!!!! For my 1st Moving Coil I chose and highly recommend an Audio Technica AT33PTG/II (what an odd name). Similar Microline stylus tip, but it has a stiffer cantilever made of tapered boron rather than aluminum. Half the price of the $1,200. Hana ML at $600. (eBay new $470). I wish it had threaded fittings like the Hana ML for initial mounting ease. If you play a lot, and take a long view, then Soundsmith’s retip service can be a big advantage https://www.sound-smith.com/services/phono-cartridge-repair-restoration-tip-repair Imaging: I always find and compare channel separation/channel balance specs knowing you need to read about/ascertain/judge it’s sound characteristics separately. AT33PTG/II channel sep 30 db; channel balance 0.5db. those achieved performance specs provide exceptional imaging. AT has a trade in program, I sent my worn one to them, they sold me a new one at half price, I like it’s sound so much I didn’t even consider anything else. Cantilever Stiffness: I believe my ears/experiences as well as what I have read about the benefits of light/stiff cantilevers, the pinnacle material was beryllium. A big advantage is lighter tracking, advantageous to both your stylus life and your lp’s grooves, and (readily heard and enjoyed) improved quality of bass notes. Hana ML and AT33PTG/II both track at 2.0g. Shure’s beryllium V15Vxmr tracked at 1,0g. (beryllium use for cantilevers was halted for health concerns): I just bought a Vintage AT160ml microline on beryllium to join my collection of sapphire tube, boron, aluminum. I have to concentrate to hear subtle differences between the sapphire tube and boron, the AT160ml difference is discernible easily, it is wonderful, I am so glad I took a risk and bought it based on the memories, and happily it tracks at only 1.25g.
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Why does it always come down to "what is better"? Neither are better or worse just different. I go back and forth between vinyl and streaming. No cd player, but have 2000 cd's in boxes in the garage, my collection is digitized on an HDD. Also have around 2k records. When I want to really listen to something, usually it's a record. When I want background music, or not sure what I'm in the mood for, it's streaming. Sound quality always comes down to the source recording. Some of my records sound better over streaming, some streaming sounds better over vinyl. For me, vinyl listening is usually more emotional, more focused. Downside of records will always be the time investment, also that everything is a wear item. Everything needs to be clean/cleaned, storage of LP's, the entire analog, manual process. Listening to vinyl is deliberate, streaming is always more convenient. |
Viewing your virtual system, it is so much easier to offer advice, my comments are based on concentrating initial soundwaves, controlling/eliminating too soon reflections, for two reasons: the purer imaging you will experience, and once rear sound waves minimized: move the TT into the top of the stand in the recess behind/between the speakers, away from it’s current side position. Perhaps also cover the recess surfaces with absorbent material, or a sliding curtain/panel to cover the recess during play. My advice is to consider changing your speakers, getting rid of the rear ports and then: what makes enough bass that you would not need subwoofers? If subwoofers, I would recommend front firing, not bottom firing, a stereo pair as you have now, as any mono note’s overtones become directional rather quickly, giving imaging clues to the origin of the fundamentals. I love JSE Model II’s, and for your space their smaller Model 1’s would sound terrific, I helped my friend with his in a NYC Apt, and my son has a pair, they include both of Richard Modafferi’s patents. JSE Infinite Slope Model 1 Review Here’s two pairs, 1 black, 1 wood veneer, both would need replacement tweeters (easy), new grill cloth (easy). Either local pickup you would pay UPS Pack and Ship yourself, just have seller drop them off unpackaged/ After you fall in love with them, change them to 3 wheels, not 4, (anti-tip rear corner blocks) have a woodworker cover them in a beautiful veneer or ...... they would look as good as they sound. add it all up, still not a lot of money and good luck equalling their amazing sound, the Infinite Slope Crossover is amazing. .....................................................
Joseph Audio still uses Modafferi's Infinite Slope Crossover System impedance indicates whether the speaker presents a "hard" or "easy" load on the amplifier. True 8 ohm speakers are less amplifier and cable sensitive, and partner well with a broader range of amplifiers, including tube designs.Crossovers: Asymmetrical Infinite Slope Crossover at 2 kHz.Constructed of specially selected components, Each individual network is precisely adjusted, resulting in a virtually perfect match to the original prototype.The steep filter slopes ensure good acoustical behavior in the crossover regions, with a minimum of acoustical interference, along with low distortion and wide dynamic range. Driver acoustic responses are in-phase throughout the crossover regions. |
@elliottbnewcombjr I really appreciate your input. Right now I'm pretty knocked out by these little Elacs. I've had more than a dozen or so speakers come through this room - some costing upwards of $9k - and this is some of the best sound I've experienced. |
@bipod72 great post. As one just getting into vinyl (i’m set on dig rig) I’m still in very early stages deciding on weather to make the jump as it is very $ to match a good dig rig, but your approach is really spot on. One doesn’t need one format/medium, it’s not a competition between formats. Use them all (if you can). I like the idea of compiling some albums on vinyl that the counter part in other formats are just plain crap and vice versa. There’s more to it than that of course, but no reason to be strictly all one format. Having invested a ton into dig and a good size local library, I’m enjoying the alternate format, shopping for albums, learning all about the analog side of things etc.. no doubt vinyl rig is or can be depending on one’s goals. |
It's not streaming fans liking to hang out on the analog forum, it's people who browse All Recent posts. That's the way I browse the Audiogon forums and I rarely pay attention to the specific forum something is posted to. So don't let it bug you, it's all good. |
Great to hear everyone commenting has an opinion (usually) based on their experiences (and Most sound interesting and positive). The OP has made a “turn” in The Road, doesn’t sound like his First and guaranteed to not be his Last… …and the entire Hana Line still represents Great value (I have 4 Friends, all with different Hana models)
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I have a very nice vinyl setup, Technics SP10 MkII, complete rebuild, 100lb custom plinth on Steelpoints, sits on 100lb component stand, Jelco TK-850L (knife edge bearing, 12"L), Korf ceramic headshell, Audio Technica ART9XA cartridge, Zavfino Gold Rush tonearm cable, Thoress phono stage. Grew up with vinyl, have over 3k albums, historically vinyl was my gold standard for sound quality. Started streaming aprox. 10 years ago, went through a number of streamers, interface and network equipment over those years to the point where I've optimized streaming such that sound quality is competitive with ripped cd's (over 3.5k) and my vinyl setup. Not saying vinyl and digital have exact same sound qualities but my digital doesn't have the digital artifacts that set it apart from my vinyl. Not difficult to get the resolution/transparency with digital, hard part is getting presentation correct, clocking is critical throughout the entire chain, timing errors are the cause of much of those digital artifacts.
Bottom line is both my digital and vinyl fully immersive, each completely satisfies both the music lover and audiophile in myself. Digital and streaming has improved a great deal in recent years, no need to put up with digital artifacts, optimizing every single link in digital and/or streaming chain required to get there.
In regard to keeping both vinyl and digital setups. If I didn't have a large number of albums I'd give up the vinyl. Having to provision funds for both vinyl and digital setups means I've had to forego some upgrades in the past. With only a single format one can use all their audiophile funds on the one format. At this point in digital and streaming development it can provide everything a music lover and audiophile seeks. |
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. As expected, there are three points of view: Analogue > Digital, Digital > Analogue & Digital = Analogue . As always, the devil-is-in-the-details. Which Vinyl and which Digital are key, along with the equipment, cables, etc. I enjoy both formats, yet have a clear preference >>> I recently had the opportunity to spend two days at the 2024 CAF show and discovered that I could easily walk down the halls and identify which rooms were playing a digital source and which rooms were playing an analogue source. The sonic signatures are so obvious that I encourage everyone to give it a try... It was very reassuring to discover that my hearing was still sensitive to the SQ of both. With that being said, to my ear I always preferred the SQ of the analogue systems (vinyl or tape). It was a 'no contest' verdict. A great digital source (CDs for me) is very enjoyable (and convenient), with great 'meat on the bones' sound, but a great analogue source provides more harmonic structure and sonic micro-dynamics. In these many years only a ~$150k dCS based system has fooled me. Until I can afford that level of digital, I remain in the Analogue Camp. Happy listening to everyone,
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One thing I find interesting and is a pretty consistent theme on these types of threads/subjects, many of the indiv getting out of vinyl are the ones that have been at it for decades and decades. I suppose the whole ritual and $ looses its appeal to convenience after some time? Not at all criticizing that if that’s the case. Just interesting to see how many are getting out of it and how many are entering it are - again just a perception. Personally, I have spent all my energy on room, setup, learning the dig side of things etc…one day something sparked my TT interest (not for wishing to better my dig or due to being bored with dig, far from it) just the mechanical / physical aspect of it. The more I researched it (and have fantastic friends/resource with vinyl experience) I thought hmmm that would be cool to add another format/ method to my rig. Thats where I’m at currently. The one obvious thing about considering a vinyl rig is the $. For me to add this medium is finding the right balance of not too cheap and not too $ with regard to SQ. Not trying to match my dig side but just getting something that’s fun and enjoyable. I have no expectations of surpassing my dig |
I gave up on analog for the most part long before the house burned last april. That said, I understand that for some people, analog is a ritualistic thing...cleaning the record, getting up every 20 minutes to turn it over, putting it away in its protective sleeve, etc....but in terms of pure sound quality, playing records is like listening to a box of rice crispies with milk on them. You know, snap, crackle, pop. The inky black background that is available on CD just trumps what analog can do IMHO. And the fiddle factor is much less with CDs than it is with records. Streaming is even less fiddling than CDs. I am likely going to be all in all digital going forward. I don't see myself buying a new turntable and buying vinyl. Too much money and trouble. CDs I will buy...movies, I will buy. Records, their time to shine is over it is a dead medium as far as I am concerned. |
