Monstrous power cables

Why not?

Compare the thick cable to the Pangea using them in your amp and/or preamp and maybe you’ll answer your own question. 

To satisfy your curiosity, purchase a Waudio cable on Amazon for about $50 and swap it in and see what happens.  It won't tell you if the $1,000 power cable is better than a $500 cable, but it should tell you if it's better to your ears than a truly budget cable.  The reason that I suggest the Waudio cable is that I have three in my system and noticed a significant difference with it for my amplifier.

I think there's an element of the size and weight that gives the impression of quality.  Maybe it's an integral part of the design and maybe it's done for esoteric reasons.  Every product has a marketing influence in the design.

If you believe that a power cable can change the sound of a component you are ready for the Men in White Coats!

Have you ever tried one?

  I have aftermarket cables. For the sake of this conversation, I changed the stock power cable on my Richard Gray power filter to a Shunyata Venom 20 amp and I could immediately tell a difference ( an improvement ). I’ll stay with my black leather jacket as it has a pocket for my Colt 45.  

Power cords make a big difference in sound… that is the why. It is best to think about plugging into your outlet as plugging lake, as opposed to plugging into a 14 gauge “hose”. I think the founder of Shunyata uses this analogy. Power does not work like a hose.

Various companies use combinations of insulators and conductors… of various size and composition. Over my 50 years of pursuing high end audio I have had a number of jaw dropping experiences with digital interconnects, speaker cables and power cords.
 

The most recent when I changed my the cord on my amplifier from an expensive Cardas to a AudioQuest Hurricane. The difference was profound. It did exactly what I needed to the overall tonal balance. The stock cord was well balanced but not as quiet and hindered the dynamics of the music, the Cardas really improved the midrange and bass… but did not improve the details as much… basically tilting the sound towards the too warm side (in most systems this is great). But the Audio Quest equally improved the details… so maintained the balance. The Hurricane was only $1,700… honestly the improvement in my system would have been worth $5K… a good value… as it should be. So, when I can I will be upgrading to the Dragon… I think $5K. I suspect it will be worth the improvement… but I’ll see. Will not happen this year.

I'm not a big believer in that.  Some common sense precautions are all I really can justify.

Jasonbourne52,

you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, obviously you have a pretty crappy system because power cords do make a difference, before you flap your gums maybe you should do some research so you'll know what you're talking about because you don't have a clue.

No need for hostilities… the reality is, everything matters. Cables DO make a difference, no question. Where that sits relative to price is up to the individual. Lamp cord works, so does a 20k cable, as well as everything in between. It doesn’t matter what it costs, if it suits your needs… so be it. Regarding the diameter of the OP’s cable, the majority of that is shielding and other “fillers/isolators” the actual wire is most likely 10 or 12 gauge wrapped within.

When a system and ourselves are Tuned to our hearing Perception (which includes having a well sorted mains supply - without any power conditioning - and an earthing mat and rod system dedicated for the hi-fi) then it is very easy to hear significant differences in the reproduced sound, when any component, including power cables and fuses, are changed.

@erik_squires I agree. Much can be done prior to the wall outlet as well as from the outlet to the gear and with minimal investment. Dedicated circuits are a must. Gear should be protected from surge with a good quality line conditioning surge protector with high current capability such as Furman Elite PF series. Furman units are used in many recording studios and are no bulls$#t. I use them in my theater rack with two 6 channel high current AB International amps. Black background absolutely silent system at idle. Same with my 2ch system. Dedicated 20amp circuit to Furman Elite. All Gear has standard power cords. Dead silent background with full dynamic range, no reduction of power and strong bass response. Ultra expensive bandaids may look pretty but with clean power on tap absolutely do not provide performance or benefits worthy of their ridiculous price. If the gullible with deep pockets are assured of promised improvements by slick marketing campaigns well let them spend thousands on a power cable that might possibly make a whopping 1/2% improvement.

Why power cords make a difference: https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables are all there to serve you and your system.  If they are so bulky or heavy as to be a pain in the ass to handle, or risk damaging your equipment, swap them out for something more manageable.  Plenty of options, and rarely only a single type to achieve your sonic goals.

@lak,

thanks for posting this, at a minimum it‘ll force lurking luddites (aka the usual suspects) into a bit of scientific thinking

Having read the link above…written by a chap selling very expensive extension cords, I see statements like this one: The current itself cannot be contaminated . Instead he refers to effects of EMI that exist throughout the power grid.

What I struggle with is that the power cord is not in the data chain. It simply feeds electricity from the wall, or conditioner to the power supply of any given component. And this, after it has run through hundreds/thousands of feet of cheap wire. I certainly agree that interconnects have a voice as they are carrying (especially analogue) data that may be audibly flavored.

Much is written by those with golden ears and expertise far beyond we mortals. But I can simply detect no difference whatsoever…granted that such nuance is subjective. Is there measurable data that verifies exactly what information is lost or flavored in the audio chain by the type of wire in the last few feet of electricity entering the transformers?

This is just my opinion, of course. Clearly, many here with hearing capabilities far beyond mine seem to feel strongly otherwise. The good news is that I can save the $$$ others may spend on a massive extension cord and plow it into equipment that my ears can appreciate. No need for argument, insult or debate. To each his own. 

I take a middle road, and if you read between the lines of some of the more learned opinions here, they seem to lean that way too.  

In my opinion (that is the term most recommendations here should start with, however, much more commonly I see "without a doubt") it is indeed size that matters.  Amps need fast access to power for dynamics.  Don't throttle the power with a light cord.

I use generic 10 awg power cords.  I do take the ends off of them and verify they have been well terminated.  If you don't feel comfortable with doing that and want something absolutely reliable, then spend 10x as much and get a $500 power cord.  Make sure it is heavy gauge, at least 12 awg, preferably 10.  I recently bought an amp with a 2 year wait list. I was very lucky to buy it before someone else did. the seller included the upgraded power cord he had purchased.  It was a $300 cord.  I looked it up and it was 17 awg.  I feel certain the cord is why he was unhappy with the amp.  I used it on my CD transport.

Like others here say, cords are not tone control.  Once you get plenty of power to your amp, anything else you hear is likely affirmation bias.

Jerry

They can act like a “device” instead of a simple cheap 14-10g cord.

Super heavy gauge will certainly increase capacitance. You can also increase or reduce resistance. What’s the big issue here?
you can change these things inside the case (amp/preamp whatever component) as well.

I suppose it’s when to start calling them devices instead of cords??

Just wear a tin foil hat and all the cables sound the same................

Thanks for all your thoughts and external reading links.  I do appreciate all of you.

I’ve not read them all but the idea that our components aren’t at the end of the electrical chain was interesting.  I’ve never looked at it in that way.

I’ve always had a dislike for unyielding cables, be they ICs or PCs.  Or even speaker cables, for that matter.  I think this probably comes from having limited space behind the equipment rack where stiff, large cables were a chore or couldn’t be used.

I’ve also had lightweight components being tilted up in the front from the pull of the audiophile-approved power cables pulling down on them and also the small monitors connected to behemoth cables and wondering when they’d get pulled off the stands by the cables.

I’m sure you’ve all experienced this, as well.

In one of the articles where the proprietor claims a single PC can take your system from “good to amazing” I call BS on.  I’m of the camp that cables can and do make a difference but that those differences are always subtle, at best.  So subtle, as a matter of fact (or opinion in my case), that if one used unfamiliar recordings to A/B the differences in PCs their choosing correctly would be akin to flipping a coin.  And with a “good to amazing” difference each of us should be able to pick correctly 100% of the time using music we’ve never heard before.

No I use archaic devices that necessitate the use of massive transformers…

Heavy!

I’m of the camp that cables can and do make a difference but that those differences are always subtle, at best.

While I largely agree with this, I shy away from using the term “always” in audio.  While most of my cable changes have made subtle improvements, there have been a few that were not subtle.  However, I’d also submit that just because improvements may be relatively subtle relative to, say, a speaker change, that doesn’t mean they aren’t important or even indispensable once you hear them to the point you wouldn’t go back to what you had before.  That’s my experience anyway. 

I find generally, cables, cords, and interconnects typically make noticeable and important differences in the sound quality and occasionally huge differences. I have not been able to predict which is going to be huge. I have a number of very fond memories of jaw dropping changes… equivalent to a component upgrade.
 

The noticeable and important changes are additive… so the small important difference in a single set of interconnects is very significant when applying to all components. Also, closer to the source tend to be more important for interconnects and higher power for power cords. But it depends. Direct lines virtually always make a very important contribution.

@audiodwebe 

I bought a Pangea, AC-9SE cord a few months ago and would be very interested how it compares to the $1000 cord.

Maybe I missed it, but what is the $1000 cord you are referring to?

All the best.

JD

They don't change the sound and they are huge because a lot of humans equate size/weight with quality. In the watch world, I've read where people say they don't like watch xxx because it's titanium and doesn't feel like quality. "It doesn't have heft."

Humans are so gullible and believe such silly things with no actual proof other than, "I know what I hear."

It’s Interesting that people can be separated from their money with essentially zero scientific fact. It’s beyond placebo effect but certainly not nice to call it stupidity. Let’s have a few of these high cost cable manufactures randomly select on their honour of course, 10 people for blind A/B testing. Then have a further group of Random audiofile’s along with Company representatives set up an accurate A/B system. After solid testing results should the product show merit the company is a winner. Should the results be negative, showing zero improvement.. everybody involved gets free product. I’ll wager there won’t be a lineup of manufactures Interested. 

. 

I think it’s hard to throw 10 strangers in a room and try cables on a system they are not familiar with. I understand the folks stating show me the science, I also understand some hold their ground so tight they are not even remotely open to the idea.

I made another thread about some decade old Kimber 1126 cables I paid a fortune for a decade ago. Over the years new mono amps and things and they just wouldn’t reach. I boxed them up and to be honest I never really thought about them much anymore. Well as I said I moved my amps again. Into a rack/cabinet and those cables now reach. I’ve really been working my system and figured wow, I can use these cables now. This should really take it a little further. As I stated in the other thread it was awful, congested, over warmish. In that thread I was told I should let them run in again as new. It’s been a decade. They got a little better but I just don’t care for the system synergy. I do think that is a real thing.

I’m trying an Audioquest Water but I can tell the warmish sound is gone. I’m going to let it go for a while longer but I honestly feel the Kimber, no matter what the hell they cost, and how stupid I might of been for spending that amount back then, that these cables are not a match in my system. And I don’t think they are going to stay. So no case of it cost more, it’s better. It’s a case that I really know most aspects of my system. Better than anybody. Better than 9 others stepping in my room for a blind test.

Somebody said in another forum if you took all these things that might just be adding just the slightest improvement, enough to matter but maybe not measurable, and you apply that thought to all the little things the doubters call snake oil, that these slight improvements will all add up to truly make a difference. I sort of agree, it’s the sum of all and maybe not one standalone item. System synergy’s.

I don’t have golden ears but I have a complete understanding of how my system sounds. I know it pretty well. I can’t prove it but I know those Kimber 1126 do not belong in my current system.

Cables may be like fine tuning. I’m not sure 10 blind in a test could really pick these things out without all ten being very familiar with the before test sound. We are not swapping speakers here. We are fine tuning the existing. Those in a cable blind test are looking for some sort of change in sound like a speaker change and that will never happen.

I think it’s kind of rude to say someone’s system may not be at a level to notice but there may be a little substance there. Not all but many higher up the chain pieces have more money in caps focus on the analog section, Greater insulation from the power supply etc. Again, it’s a thing to me. Some of these pieces of gear maybe more on par where tuning maybe noticed.

So I don’t know all but for me I’ve had moments I can really tell something changed by something I did. As with the Kimber 1126 that doesn’t mean more expensive better.

Do what’s right for you and maybe be open minded.

"The electricity is carried through my house probably using 14 gauge wire."

This is the key.  Same with streaming.  If your bandwidth from the curb to the house is bad, a 1000$ router is not going to make it any better.   If the source is bad, it will not get better with a different cable to the streamer.  You don't want the power cable to make the sound be any worse, but hard to understand how it going to fix the 50 feet of Romex in the wall, and Romex don't cost much per foot.  

I don’t see the relevance of 10 people not aware of the equipment or the process or the cables to me that doesn’t matter it’s strictly the hearing, do you hear a difference yes or no!  There’s much made of science, bean counters, nonbelievers , that sort of thing. So with heavy emphasis on hearing let’s do it, is there a difference or not ?
Have an average system, and alternately a very revealing system same process same questioning, is it different or not ? 
One doesn’t have to be open-minded… let a jury decide.

I read all the posts here and it talks about the same subject as a post I started last week.  I will add this to it as well.

I now have two high end sound systems now, over 100 K invested, of which 10 K in cables.  In Montreal I have mostly Transparent speaker and interconnects with a Simaudio amp and recently Q concept 500 speakers.   In the chalet, now our main home, I have new Raidho X3 with Devialet amp and Luna Red usb and speaker cables. 

My problem here is with power cords. Here are my findings:

The Audioquest Blizzard with the Raidhos make them sound less lively than a cheaper power cord.  The same setup with the Q concept worked fine ( I had them at the chalet for a month)

The Q concepts back in Montreal  replace Wilsons Sophia 3 . Now the sound is too bright. No distortion, but too bright nevertheless.  So I took out the DR Acoustics Red fire ( 5 K) and swapped home made Furutech heavy gauge. ( 200 $). And guess what: the balance of the speakers was back to normal. Could have more separation in instruments, but at least you can listen to the music and not the equipment.

I am not an engeneer, bus I said to myself: if the DR are more revealing, why noy try them with the Raidhos.  Well, I just did and ....   it works !!  The Raidhos are now as good as they were in the store.

In tis swap, the impact of the power cord was as big as one qurter turn in the old treble knobs. Much bigger impact than interconnects , digital and even speaker cables.

Finally, I want to point out that I went to a lot of live concerts in my life: Pink Floyd, ELP, Police, Sade etc, as weel as many symphonies in Montreal, Paris, Vienna, Milano, Carenigie hall etc.  

My criteria for any music, live or reproduced is: does it make my hair raise on my arms and the top: on my neck.

My exprience with 4 power cables fron 50 to 5000 $ made that happen in both systems.  

Conclusion: experiment with power cords. If your hair stays down, do not buy.

Have fun.

Power cords make a big difference in sound… that is the why. It is best to think about plugging into your outlet as plugging lake, as opposed to plugging into a 14 gauge “hose”. I think the founder of Shunyata uses this analogy. Power does not work like a hose.

But there is a lake at the power plant.
The amp has capacitors in it that also creates a lake inside of the amp.

Unless the internal capacitors are drooping, then how would the cord affect them?

@1971gto455ho

Just so happens that I was a practicing scientist when I began my pursuit of high end audio… before graduate school. Within a year I realized that the published technical parameters were grossly insufficient to account for most of what we hear in electronically reproduced music. It isn’t that this is beyond the realm, companies use science and engineering as a foundation to producing good sounding equipment. It is that the number of variables become overwhelming quickly. So, many variables quickly send designers to experimentation quickly… basic material science.

This is something I know something about. I worked as an inventor (electrical mechanical engineer) after college. I was given the task of designing a new system. The first few days I used physical and chemical properties to design. Then, realized how I would need computer simulation. I just went out and bought dozens of materials and used them in a prototype to see how they functioned. Hundreds of time more efficient.

Basic science is fantastic when using a few variables… but throw in dozens or hundreds for the sake of creating audio components and it become too time consuming.

Let me suggest you forget your vendetta against all of us stupid gullible people that will spend $5K on speaker cables or interconnects. Just go out and listen to some insanely expensive systems. Forget the price. Just listen. If they don’t sound fantastic to you. Great, go home and enjoy your system. If they do sound amazing… like they did to me… start investigating why.

I did. What I found is that they are systems and every component matters. You can find a good sounding system with just great components, but you will not find great sounding systems without every aspect carefully chosen and optimized. If you simply put together “good measuring” equipment like ASR is likely to recommend you will have yourself a very poor sounding system.

Great speech but it adds up to nothing… pure conjecture. There are volumes Written on this topic by many engineers and scientists. The best that can be said for most of this wire if you will, is Super fat casings on some form of 12 Gauge wire with pretty ends. The hope of noise suppression to some degree ? Of course what dummy wouldn’t believe that the cable at the very end of your electrical circuit will correct all that’s negative…. Add to that adjust your specific sound values ? 

Cheers 
 

+1@1971gto455ho, I agree pure conjecture.

Mike

@audiodwebe

Have you considered that your dealer knows what he is doing and actually recommended a good power cable choice based on the price/performance of your power conditioner?

By the way, I am not the dealer, and have no idea who the dealer is.

I didn’t buy from a dealer, but from another music lover either here, on the ‘gon, or US Audio Mart.

From what he told me, the dealer had three different cables available for audition and the previous owner went with what sounded best to him.

@audiodwebe Few years ago I had RS Dmitri with its https://sigsound.com/running-springs-audio-mongoose/ 20A power cord and I have also tried its other, more expensive https://sigsound.com/running-springs-audio-crown-jewel/ power cord that my friend had with its RS (Jaco?) conditioner. The moongoose power cord is in fact Cardas Golden Reference cord and at the time I remember reading that internal wiring in RS is all from Cardas copper.

The reason I am writing this is because manufacturers have their house sound, not only with Ic and speaker cables, but with their power cables as well (at least few that I have tried extensively, like Cardas, Nordost, Shunyata and many others) and that ’first’ cable going from wall to conditioner will have a major influence on the ’flavour’ of your system.

The 'size' or the thickness does not mean a thing (in this case) At the present, I am using AN Kondo power cord in my tube preamp that has the smallest diameter of all I have tried, but it gives me the sensation of the deepest stage, like no other has.

Do not know what other power cables and gear you have, but the cable that previous owner had with RS might be great with his system, but you need to understand is it best for yours too.

There are some gear brands that are known for ’liking’ certain cable brands, in broad sense,like Spectral and Mit, Ayre and Cardas, or Burmester and Nordost, and so on, but there is not an clear advise that anybody could give you, which cables to use, since there are many factors (choice and combinations of gear you have and your individual taste)

I believe that power cords, or even better, the combination of your gear and their power cords have a major impact on the type of the sound you will end up with and in my case, choosing ones that are ’best’ is something that takes time and patience...and best advice I can give you is to try any one you can get to understand their ’flavour’...and than pick the ones you like best...

Not to add more to possible confusion, but sometimes the single ’best’ one is not the ’best’ one in grand scheme of things....its like cooking....sometimes some ’great’ flavour could become too dominant...but, that is a ’next level’ story...

Methinks what’s really missing in this thread is a reflection on litz vs. solid core. To my ears solid core (Acoustic Revive, Nordost et al) wins out every time in direct comparison with location accuracy, transparency and impulse response. Those who believe that cables don’t matter should get their ears checked or check into another hobby.

Methinks what’s really missing in this thread is a reflection on litz vs. solid core.

When navel gazing on cables, I usually find lints.

@audiodwebe thanks for the info on who recommended the cable to you.

Next questions: How does it sound? Are you happy with the package (power cable and power conditioner)?

Thanks for the info, alexatpos.  The cables that came with my Maxim is just slightly larger in diameter than the Crown Jewel.  I think I’ll remove the tape at some point to see what the connectors look like and to see in the manufacturer’s name is on it.

waytoomuchstuff, my system sounds quite nice to me.  But I’ve not swapped the cable to the Maxim with another one.  I do know (now that I’ve thought about it) that I have the generic cable that came with my PurePower 2000 sitting around somewhere.  I upgraded(?) that PC with a shorter run of the Pangea PC.  

Did I notice a difference when I did that?  Nope.  But then I didn’t really do an A/B test since the PurePower has a few large batteries it cleans and stores the power into.  With no power coming into it it’ll still provide juice to the components for about ten minutes or so.

But I’ll be honest here:  99% of the time I interact with my stereo I’m not wearing my audiophile hat.  I just listen to and enjoy the music.  That also oftentimes happens when I change cables or or even components.  I seldom A/B test listening for the differences.  My motto is if the new item doesn’t immediately make me want to remove it, or I notice I’m not enjoying the music as much as before the swap, I normally just leave it in place.

I have lots of tubed gear, both for 2-channel stereo and headphone listening.  And whenever I buy a new (to me) piece of tubed gear I always buy extra, and in some cases, many extra sets of tubes for “tube rolling”.  When I’m buying all the extra tubes I’m normally wearing my audiophile hat.

My tube rolling goes like this:  I’ll listen to a few minutes of my test tracks a couple of times so that the sound is fresh in my memory.  I’ll swap out the tubes and will notice a difference.  Then after a few minutes my ears have adjusted to the difference and I’m right back to just listening to, and enjoying the music again.

It might just be that I take my audiophile hat off too quickly.  Or maybe my hearing just sucks.  Or I don’t focus hard enough.  Or most likely, I’m a Lazy Audiophile (if there is such a thing).

So many times I’ve danced with my speakers an inch here, a half-inch there, a quarter-inch over yonder and even an eighth-inch movements all over the place going from my chair to the speakers back to my chair over and over and over…

After many hours or days of this madness is when I’d get tired of it and throw in my Bose 901s!  Because with the Bose, they sound pretty good no matter where I put them and I listen to them differently than my other gear that I dance with.

Hello Audiowebe. Have you ever watched a salesman present one of these thick, not-so-flexible cables to a male, particularly senior, potential customer? It's a psychodrama of the free enterprise kind. I spent an afternoon in a stereo emporium in the early days of big cabbles. He grips it about 18 inches from the end and lets the rest dangle straight down. He hand is about waist high and cable points upward at somewhere around 10 to 40 degrees. Get the picture? The communication is instant and unconcious, but the optic nerve is pulsating with excitement as the man reaches for his wallet. All the while the salesman is talking about maximum power delivery. etc. To a neutral observer over 21, it is a hilarious spectacle.

Like another member (pun intended), I use power cords I found on Amazon for around $50. The improvement was immediate. The wire was 12 gauge. I think it's the shielding that does it. I am  former wire skeptic. So I experimented and discovered that speaker wires make a difference. Then, I discovered HUGE differences in USB cables (the one I use cost $150 and it's made in Canada). Then, I discovered that interconnects matter too. The ones I use are always gong on sale for 40 -60% off. 

I noticed a response from an obvious wire skeptic. Friend, try an experiment. It'll cost you $50 or so and that's a very low price to pay to avoid embarrassing youself in the future. Get one of those $50 Amazon power cables. Put it on your integrated amp or power amp. Listen continuously for two hours at least while the cable breaks in (yes cables break in). Well, I'll be snookered!

If you don't upgrade your cables, they may mask any improvement a new component (costing $1000s!) would make because poor cables prevent you from hearng the improvement the new device gives you. If wire doesn't make a  difference, why do medical devices often use gold wires to couple nerve signals to medical devices? The next time hospital folks put stickers on you chest, just tell 'em, "Good ol' 14 gauge line cord is good enough for me!"  Stop spouting your inexperience and start hearing what yor system would like to do for you. Don't we spend $$ on this stuff so we can hear beautiful music? Your system is better than you think. Keep Smiling1

Honest question. Can someone explain how a expensive power cord is going to over come the 50 to 100 feet of Romex (about 1 $ per foot) that runs from the breaker box to the outlet? I can understand if the stock power cable was worse then the Romex, thus creating a bottle neck, but it seems to be the very long run of inexpensive Romex that will be the ’weak link’, were the electrons to care. And, I am all for listening, but it must be a blind test. Even with that, it would be interesting to know the science behind how that last 6 feet of cord overcomes all the ’ sound’ from the 100 feet of crappy Romex.

@12many

I would refer to Shunyata… the founder has a good video on the subject. The point is that power is like a lake not a hose. The reality of us that have experience is that a high end power cords are the most effective at improving sound… the second is to replace low quality Romex with a 10 gauge direct line or better. Depending on your power grid, a power conditioner can be at the beginning or end of the list.

One thing to notice is that great sounding audio equipment invariably has a large amount of technology and weight dedicated to power… it is the foundation of high quality sound.

With as decent power supply in an amplifier, then there is also a “lake” inside of the amp.

If the gullible with deep pockets are assured of promised improvements by slick marketing campaigns well let them spend thousands on a power cable that might possibly make a whopping 1/2% improvement.

Have you ever heard top gear and what that, even the small percentage you are referring, is capable off.

Even with that, it would be interesting to know the science behind how that last 6 feet of cord overcomes all the ’ sound’ from the 100 feet of crappy Romex.

Why should not be the first six feet?

The ’size’ or the thickness does not mean a thing (in this case) At the present, I am using AN Kondo power cord in my tube preamp that has the smallest diameter of all I have tried, but it gives me the sensation of the deepest stage, like no other has.

True, especially for Kondo where there is magic in all of his cables (and not only).