Hi,
too many damaged speakers? An extra circuit? More manufacturing cost? Out of style?
Amp design followed a different approach after 70's with less is better, i am not sure though that was a consumer demand.
On the other hand an amp/speaker combination should be pleasing even at very low volumes too. |
hi,
plus if you have tone controls they can do same job and better as they work in all volume settings. |
|
The problem with a loudness function is that there is no way to set it up right. The idea is based on the Fletcher-Munson curve, which is variable depending on sound pressure. So the loudness has to be variable, the problem is knowing how to set it. With **all** loudness controls that are essentially a tap on a volume control with an emphasis network, there is a correct setting of the control with a particular speaker, and with a particular source. So if you have two sources that are at different output levels you'll need to have a different volume control setting to obtain the desired volume, but now the loudness emphasis is different. Obviously they can't both be right, and if you don't happen to be sitting the correct distance from the loudspeaker with which the amp was designed, it will never be right.
Now some amps had in addition to a volume control, a loudness control too, so you could variably set the emphasis; the problem here is knowing where to set the control. About all you know there is that if you have the volume set lower, you might want the loudness set higher?? But the reality is that you can't have any idea, not without doing a lot of measurements...
Obviously the result has been since their inception that loudness settings are a gimmick and nothing more. So high end stuff omits it since its entirely useless and only causes colorations.
|
Thanks for the thoughts petg60 - Your logic makes sense. I can see manufacturers cutting costs on non-essential items to remain competitive. And, I do use the tone controls on my system without loudness. Doesn't have the same effect but helps.
Thanks atmosphere - appreciate the detail. I've had loudness variable type (on a McIntosh 4300V receiver) and the switch type on my current McIntosh C41, as well as many vintage Pioneer/Concept models in my youth. It definitely colors the sound once the volume is increased. But at low volumes I still find it adds value to the music. |
It is a feature I have seen recently in AV receivers and perhaps processors, but it wasn't labelled loudness. It is all done digitally of course. With many people having all digital systems, it does not make sense in the analog domain. At low listening levels, even digitized vinyl would be hard to argue against versus the alternative (not loudness compensation).
|
@atmasphere : Yamaha and Denon have both implemented variable loudness controls. (Not sure if Denon does anymore).
While I applaud your neurotic insistence on exact settings, the toggle switch Loudness button on my Luxman's sounds really great.
|
The reason it mostly went away was a big trend towards hair-shirt purism in preamps and integrated. Tone controls, balance control, and loudness (button or variable) all were eliminated at the altar of the fewest possible stages and connections. This is reflected in Japanese mid-fi components where there's a "straight" or "direct" button that bypasses the tone controls they still incorporate. Undoubtedly there's a market for a preamp with a variable loudness control, though obviously not to everyone's taste. |
Although I eschew "loudness controls" as well as mostly eschewing the word "eschew" (except for this), I don't understand why "measurement" is needed when you can simply LISTEN to the results of applying a control. I have a Loki EQ that's almost always bypassed except for the rare recording that really needs sonic first aid, but otherwise seemingly 99.999% of what I listen to needs (or personal taste dictates a determining action) nothing as far as EQ is concerned...some recordings require me to smoke pot, but that's another story. |
ebm is probably right ie most people never understood or used it. |
I am with you twoleftears,
What is really funny, is the people, companies, etc. that eschew this so called "purism" are the first to say Vinyl is the the very best consumer audio format (ignore R-R). What is vinyl? ... it's a minimum of two equalizers, or two compressor/decompressors depending on your view with a variable frequency channel mixer, and a host of other "analog" effects. It is about as far from "pure" as you can get. It takes some serious cognitive dissonance to believe that is pure, but a loudness or equalizer is not. Some of this is a side effect of believing things not true, like being able to detect small phase differences, etc.
It's almost like the low-fat craze. Never really was any evidence for it, but people blinded believed it, followed it, and got less and less healthy. At least with the THD wars we found out early it was not the be all and end all.
|
wolf,
I would have one advocacy for measurement. Every few years, someone brings up the very good, but 0 traction idea of playback calibration, usually including reference tones and reference playback level so that the user can listen at the volume level intended to achieve the most accurate playback as intended.
|
I agree with twoleftears--I think that most of the industry went purist on us. I particularly miss balance controls, especially now that I've lost a lot of hearing in one ear. |
The amplifier used in the Mapleshade room at CES with the (then) new Gallo reference speakers was a single volume amp designed and built by Pierre’s partner Ron Bowman. No volume control, no tone control. Yeah, baby! |
|
Simply because it is not needed. Preamps & amplifiers can work at low volumes if they are designed correctly. |
....and there's always an 'outboard eq' that could be pressed into the mix to provide a remedy as desired.
Outboard, in the computer, octave, parametric....the 'loudness' switch basically acted like a parametric 'bump' in the lower frequencies.
Yes, it's not just 'a flip of the switch', but if you miss it, you Can have it back. *S* |
I imagine manufacturers stopped including it to cut costs, figuring correctly that most wouldn't complain. Like erik, I have it, use it when appropriate.
|
Just for kicks... Check out Luxman integrated and control amplifiers. They have well designed Loudness circuits. |
I sold Yamaha hi-fi in mid 70's. They taught the concept based on the Fletcher-Munson curves and it worked well. You set your maximum comfortable volume first, then turned it down with the loudness control. (Variable, not just a switch). I bet somebody to write an accurate digital version that could be an add-on feature for a miniDSP unit. |
As others have noted, loudness controls (and tone controls) are out of fashion.
So, remember - loudness / tone controls = bad
All other manner of changing the audio quality of your system -- speaker wires, cables, etc. = good.
|
Many AV receivers have the loudness control disguised as the Audyssey “Dynamic Volume Control” selection. While I never use it is there.... I generally just turn it up slightly to improve the perceived balance or live with the idea that there are other people I need to actually need to consider.
If you use subs or full range speakers then put them on isolation/decoupling platforms and that will drastically reduce the transmission of the bass frequencies through the walls of your listening space allowing you to turn it up a bit to compensate.
Or, (gasp!) use tone controls if you have them and upping the bass and treble by a couple of clicks on each end when listening at lower volumes.
Above all experiment... try things... be creative... don’t stop until you have something that works for you!
T
|
What's wrong with headphones? I won't use them because they sound so good I get carried away (and lose hearing in the process). Consider them if you've more self control. |
For a few years , starting In the early 90s I had a Yamaha rx570 with a variable tone control, and Paradigm 9semk3 towers. The combo could sound thin and lifeless at low volumes; the variable loudness control worked wonders. In my second system I have a vintage restored Tandberg 1055 with a well implemented loudness control. Very useful at low volumes, and seems to automatically compensate with volume . I use it without guilt.
My main system has a tube hybrid Audible Illusions pre with 2 gain and 2 volume controls, and a high current SS amp, driving Maggies. For whatever reason this system plays very well at low volumes. Maybe its the tubes , maybe the high current, but it needs no "loudness" compensation.
High end audio has definitely gone "purist" for at least the last 30 years, and has eschewed tone and loudness controls. I understand the concept of a pure signal path, but I don't get my shorts in a bunch about using a loudness control if it makes things sound better for late night listening. If you like it, use it.
Come to think of it, and this is just my speculation: a lot of audiophiles listen at quite moderate to low volumes for normal listening. Both myself and my closet audio buddy are case and point. Maybe that plays into the designs of some high end equipment builders, thus helping negate the need for controls.
|
I miss having a loudness button...it made a definite positive change when listening at low levels.
|
Buy a McIntosh preamp they actually have different levels of loudness. So much freedom! |
I have (among others) a vinatge Sansui AU-517 integrated amplifier but I've never use its loudness switch. I even prefer to listen to it flat, though I always used loudness buttons of Sansui and Pioneer amps in my youth.. Tastes and listening habits tend to change... |
I mean "I've never used"... |
I had a Yamaha receiver for my office system that had the variable loudness. As Vermonster said, you turned up the volume to the maximum you were likely to ever listen and then used the rotary loudness control to decrease the output to the desired level and it would increase the loudness compensation as the level decreased. It worked very well except for one problem. The remote had a volume control but no loudness control, so you couldn’t use the feature with the remote. Good idea poorly implemented.
|
Thanks to everyone for the responses. It seems that of those that responded, more are not in favor of the feature. That would support the reason why the feature has virtually disappeared from the market (exceptions were noted).
Thanks again |
4+ years ago I had a Parasound A23, which had VC on the back for each channel. It helped in my non-symmetrical room
|
I had a Denon integrated amp many years ago with a loudness button---loved it at lower volumes. I'm looking into getting a new integrated soon and the Luxman integrated is my #1 choice since they still have a loudness button. I wish the new Yamaha's had them. |
I have tone controls on my main integrated but still use a Schiit EQ to pull out a little midrange. I run Klipsch speakers, so they can be a little bright, which I knew when I bought them. That is the closest I can get to a loudness curve.
The current gen of Yamaha integrateds still have variable loudness too. Looking at one since the R900 in my office is dying a slow death-of-a-1000-broken-solders-and-switches.
-Geoff
|
Also, it becomes necessary to protect people from themselves. In this case, many people may have just left the loudness switch in the on position regardless of volume. This could result in damaging a speaker or at least distorted sound. When I was in the army from 1975 to 78, this was the golden era of receivers. Everyone had one! Guys would blast them all night and weekend long! People were returning them damaged to the PX left and right. (The PX asked no questions. All were covered under warranty). Getting rid of the loudness switch was maybe one small way of dumbing the receiver down. There was a standing joke in the army; They used to write "TGIF" on the inside of our boots. Toes go in first! Joe |
bluorion122 posts06-06-2020 5:54amI
had a Denon integrated amp many years ago with a loudness
button---loved it at lower volumes. I'm looking into getting a new
integrated soon and the Luxman integrated is my #1 choice since they
still have a loudness button. I wish the new Yamaha's had them.
The Luxman integrated amps are great, far beyond the inclusion of the Loudness button. |
I usually listen to music at low levels (SPL) and miss the equalization that a Loudness control provides. Unfortunately, any alteration of the sound is frowned on by the audiophile community, despite the need defined by the Fletcher-Munson curves. |
"ebm is probably right ie most people never understood or used it." I suspect those who have it use it but are ashamed to admit it in front of others. Of course, not many have it. I never use tone controls, but I do use loudness button at times. |
"...a single volume amp designed and built by Pierre’s partner Ron Bowman. No volume control, no tone control." That is how some of us used CD players with variable outputs. We did not need amplifier's volume control. |
bluorion,
Yamaha integrated amplifiers have a little bit of a different approach to "loudness button". It is not even a button and it is variable. From what I understand, and that is very questionable, it does not boost some frequencies but lowers some others. You turn it up or down as you see fit, not just on/off, so it should be helpful with atmasphere’s concern.
The only problem is that I could never figure out how not to mess it up. In my experience, it is worthless. Your experience may be better, those engineers have not put it there for nothing.
EDIT: It seems that Yamaha amplifiers you may be considering (higher-priced) do not have loudness control. There is a loudness control on lower-priced ones (model 801, etc.), but you lose meters. So you are stuck with Luxman and, maybe, Accuphase. Which is not a bad spot to be stuck at, by the way.
|
glupson"...a single volume amp designed and built by Pierre’s partner Ron Bowman. No volume control, no tone control." That is how some of us used CD players with variable outputs. We did not need amplifier’s volume control. >>>Sure, if it was a digital volume control, which it probably wasn’t. Goodie for you anyway. |
glubson
The only problem is that I could never figure out how not to mess it up.
>>>>No surprise here. 🤗
|
geoffkait, ">>Sure, if it was a digital volume control, which it probably wasn’t. Goodie for you anyway." I have no idea what kind of volume control it was (mostly SONY CDP 790 and then a few ES models), but it was very usable when plugged into a no-volume-control devices. It even gave you remote control for volume. |
Like Vermonster, I have sold the Yamaha variable loudness concept for years, and he explains it perfectly. [They actually did make one stereo receiver model with VL on the remote (it had 2 motorized pots), as Jovian notes...this shoulda been the default design]. But I want to mention the approach taken by Crown Int'l with their IC-150 preamp. Like most pushbutton loudness buttons, it grossly overcompensated, making it a glorified bass boost at all levels...BUT...in the manual they explained its proper use...with the VC set to 2PM (where its effect disappeared), the user was to lower the input gain controls on the amplifier (which theirs had) to set the inflection point where the ear heard full range...thus calibrating the loudness button properly, making it much more effective. Also, McIntosh has a variable loudness knob on their C-20 classic tube preamp...and it's the best one I've found, with a well judged contour and that's based on 1960s research on frequency dependant hearing perception. |
"...with a well judged contour..." Wow. Now I remember that some brands had "contour" switch. I think Grundig was one of them, but am not sure anymore. |
I haven’t owned a single piece of gear for either home or car audio that doesn’t have a "loudness" feature (it is sometime cleverly renamed) ; and I never will. A true variable Fletcher-Munson is where its at. I like the fatness/punch and warmth it provides at low volumes.
And for what it’s worth - a lot of "purist" are not really purists anyway. How many are running Dirac, or Audyssey, or ARC ? Shouldn’t they be physical treating their room rather than using processing to flatten their response? Room correction processing is just the new/hip thing - so they are ok I guess.... I say use it all - what ever gets you to the experience that puts a grin on your face and that warm fuzzy feeling from head to toe when your system is singing just the way you like it......
|
I use the loudness on a McIntosh tube tuner, for me it gives the music depth and body, fills out the sound, something is missing without it. |
There are some preamps out there with bass & treble adjustments on the remote. Emotiva makes one. My old Luxman preamp had both a loudness button and bass & treble controls. I end up doing a lot of low-volume listening with my Maggies....not a good combination...but bass & treble controls make it enjoyable. Have you considered a Schitt Loki equalizer? https://www.schiit.com/products/loki |
I have always been a huge fan of the Loudness Switch for the reason the OP describes. I find a way to incorporate or replicate in all my systems. Below are my solutions to add "Loudness" capability to my multiple systems: - System 1: 70’s Vintage Technics Rig w/Reel-to-Reel with "Tape Loops" (x2) and NO factory Loudness switch, oddly = I run an external Technics Parametric EQ via the tape loop "Set to replicate the Fletcher-Munson curve and correct for my room". When I want this enabled, I flip the switch to monitor Tape 2 where it resides. :-)
- System 2: McIntosh C52 based. I purposely sought out this Pre-Amp because of its EQ, which toggles on/off via front switch. Like above, I replicate the F-M Curve and a hint of Room Correction. I purposely bought this Pre-amp for this explicit purpose and late night listening.
- System 3: Schitt Loki EQ. Just like above, I use this in my Office system with powered monitors to emulate the Loudness curve.
- System 4: Computer - Amarra and/or iTunes. I just do it in Software. iTunes actually has a per-programmed "Loudness" setting.
Call me old school, but give me this (eq) functionality/capability over using e$oteric cables ’for tone control’ any day. If I want brighter, darker, or tighter sound, I turn a few knobs to my liking. If a recording sucks and FLAT isn't cutting it, turn a few knobs. :-) Bring back the "Tape Loop"!!!! |
|
Mitsubishi used a variable loudness knob on several of their receivers too, I always liked that feature over the loudness switch. If you got a loudness button or dial, you end up using it. For many more years than not, I don’t have loudness & I don’t miss it either.
|
