Loudness - Why has the industry stopped producing amplifiers with this feature any longer?

@lou_setriodes , add Decware Z-Rock to your list. This seems like the best solution for anyone wanting to keep their existing gear, but add contour adjustment. No longer in production, there was another unit by a company (1-man operation actually) called Delicious Decibels.

I listen 80% late at night in my living room beneath the master bedroom. After  too many complaints from my wife I tried Sennheiser HD650 phones. Ok but good for max 1 hour due to declining  comfort. Had an old McIntosh MA5100 with a Loudness switch. Subbed into my systemwhich helped but found  my Ohm Walsh 200S35s sucked at low volumes. So, now I have 2 complete systems in that room because I added Kef R300s and a Marrantz nd8006 for night use. So my late night listening is no longer issue. Now my wife is upset for different reasons....

 

 

 

Manufacturers that used Variable Loudness:
1.  Yamaha
2.  Denon
3.  Mitsubishi
4.  McIntosh
5.  Kyocera
6.  Nakamichi

Any others?

Yes back then that control used to be on all the receivers, for a little added punch.But I do feel the purists won out...or just wear headphones. 

Ask yourself why you want loudness??  More volume, better bass??  I used to run XLR to get more gain and have landed to unbalanced with tubes to get all I was looking for.  Depends on what you want to get from an upgrade.

I guess the new norm is its unnecessary. But I liked to experiment with them.

Yes, dusty, worn POTS and oxidized contacts on switches can be a problem. But that is why we have DeOxit ;-)

DeOxit has a dicey reputation in this regard. Its not exactly the best medicine if you are dealing with a part that has the resistive element on a phenelic substrate. In a nutshell its bad chemistry.

So people that are really concerned about longevity of such parts (usually collectors) use specialized vacuum cleaners to clean out the pots and see how they behave after that is done before resorting to control cleaners like DeOxit.  

Us designer types that like to make high performance circuits have different concerns. For example, I like tubes for preamp circuits and tubes tend to have some fairly high impedances that cause stray capacitances to roll off the top end. If you really want your circuit to have 3D depth and width, you have to eliminate phase shift; to do that you need bandwidth (2KHz-100KHz at a minimum; 200KHz is better). When you have a switch to bypass a tone stack you're asking for trouble in this regard. Usually the presence of a tone stack suggests two things- first that the speaker is bandwidth compromised and second that getting the sound stage right is secondary to the goals of the listener.


In high end audio, getting the system to sound like the musicians are playing in the room is a pretty serious endeavor. It is rendered impossible if a tone stack is involved. You might be able to get it sound like a good stereo, but sound like its real?- nope, won't do that.

Once I sorted this out and got competent equipment, I found that I never felt like I needed any tone controls. The key is 'competent equipment' but its also important to get the speaker placement right and have a good match between all the bits in the system.

I seem to recall the later old TacT gear allowed for user customizable settings that varied with the volume control setting.

Regarding Switch/Knob issues.  Yes, dusty, worn POTS and oxidized contacts on switches can be a problem.  But that is why we have DeOxit ;-)

However, in the digital world having such things as room control, bass management, dynamic loudness correction and the ability to juggle your system’s frequency response all by computer (no mechanical switches) are real eye openers.

I kind of agree with this, it’s the interface I have more of a problem with. Honestly, I prefer knobs. As someone who uses Roon, along with paremetrics and shelving EQ, I would really like a bass / treble knob sometimes. So, I’d like two features really:

1. A physical knob, perhaps assignable.
2. Gapless playback when EQ is changed.
   

Without this, I end up leaving Roon alone, and resort to the integrated. No complaints, but in a future all-digital world, I want knobs, not a slick touch screen. :)

Atmasphere, you aren't kidding. All the unused switches in my dad's old HH Scott preamp failed. Not worth fixing. However, in the digital world having such things as room control, bass management, dynamic loudness correction and the ability to juggle your system's frequency response all by computer (no mechanical switches) are real eye openers.
All this can be done without adding any distortion and the DSPs doing it are all operating under a 48 bit system so you can lose a few bits here and there w/o affecting the sound. It is a tweaker's dream come true and a lot of fun. If you get the opportunity you should play around with a dedicated room control processor like the Trinnov ST2 which inserts between your preamp and amplifiers. On bypass it may not sound quite as good as the system without it but engage the room control and you are in a whole new world.  

I will say the 4 3-way level
Switches  on each of my Ohm F5 speakers is a godsend for helping get things tuned into a room just right.  That’s 3^8 or 6561 different combos. 

Maybe vendors would rather have people have to buy more new stuff when things don’t sound quite right which is almost always in audiophile land. 

They proclaim Tone Controls = BAD!! Ummm... but there’s this thing they invented call a SWITCH..... and you and just switch them out of the audio path.... and don’t get me started on "oh but that switch is in the signal path and it degrades the sound too..." No! It does’t.

The more transparent your equipment is, the more you hear things like switches. That in itself is a pain because if you have that transparency, then you have to pay a lot more for the switches you get so that they don't cause audible degradation.


Putting myself through engineering school I worked as a service technician repairing consumer electronics. Even when the stuff was new, the tone control defeat switch was one of those parts that was a source of failure- mostly out of disuse, just like the tape monitor switch. I had to assume that as the product ages, such switches will become more problematic.


Funny thing though, once my own system got to a certain level of competency, I didn't miss the tone controls. Even at low volumes the bass was perfectly audible.

So long as you have a variable loudness and variable volume control, this is a very useful control to have.  I'm afraid it was sacrificed to the "less is more" philosophy, along with (in come occassions) balance controls.  Purist, perhaps, but consumer-unfriendly.

I hate people who hate tone controls! Not because I disagree with them, but because they have ruined the audio world for the rest of us. They proclaim Tone Controls = BAD!! Ummm... but there’s this thing they invented call a SWITCH..... and you and just switch them out of the audio path.... and don’t get me started on "oh but that switch is in the signal path and it degrades the sound too..." No! It does’t.
As for the Loudness circuit, there is very sound psychoacoustic reason why this is a fabulous idea! Our hearing loses bass at low volumes. Gee, why can’t we have a circuit that increases bass as we turn the volume down? That would make quiet music infinitely MORE ENJOYABLE. Isn’t that what we want? Music to be more enjoyable?? Well thanks for ruining it for all of us you tone haters! Oh... and Yes, variable loudness is much better than a fixed amount.

Schiit Loki.
This 4 band tone control is marvelous. I use it as a loudness switch for low volume evening listening. For some harsh recordings I tweak the mid-high and high freq controls - but very infrequently. So once set, I just switch it in or out as needed. My Manley Stingray integrated amp allows me to do this with the remote.

It fell out of favor, when people  were told set there tone control to  neutral and loudness switch off.

I used to have an ARC SP3a that had something called a "Contour" control. Basically, it was a tuneable "loudness" control. I don't recall seeing it on any subsequent models. If the tone controls were activated you could control the curve to add more bottom end for low listening levels. I never used it all that much. Being as this was mumblety years ago, I seldom listened at low levels anyways. But I could see it as a handy tool for apartment/condo dwellers or for background level music. 
Cheers... 

I have no loudness or tone controls. I’m sure others have explained better than I can why the shortest distance from A to B is an engineers goal. 

If you MUST have a tone variability option, tone controls provide more flexibility. Loudness was a cheap way to compensate for poor circuitry and parts in cheap components. 

I have one in my Dyna PASS. That was a long time ago. Dyna was good in their day. 

hayw, bass and treble. 

My recollection is that the loudness button simply added an enhanced bass response.  Is my 20 to 30 year old recollection in error?

I will not purchased a system without the loudness switch. I have a restored Marantz 2275 and the Vincent Audio SV 237 and both have loudness switch which are available when needed. My ears like music with the low-end forward and some of the older music are not mastered by today's standards and the loudness switch bring the low-end a step up closer. There is no right way or wrong way to listen to your music. It your equipment and your ears and preference. Think about this - every artist sculpt the music to their preference and the end results is what you hear. This is also true when a classic album is re-mastered by a someone other than the original engineer. There are good and bad mastered and re-mastered music that will always change the sound. The creator controls the final results.

Mitsubishi used a variable loudness knob on several of their receivers too, I always liked that feature over the loudness switch.  If you got a loudness button or dial, you end up using it.  For many more years than not, I don’t have loudness & I don’t miss it either.

You could try one of these. It also has a defeat switch for when your audiophile friends visit:

http://www.deliciousdecibels.com/the-delicious-one.html

I have always been a huge fan of the Loudness Switch for the reason the OP describes. I find a way to incorporate or replicate in all my systems.

Below are my solutions to add "Loudness" capability to my multiple systems:

• System 1: 70’s Vintage Technics Rig w/Reel-to-Reel with "Tape Loops" (x2) and NO factory Loudness switch, oddly = I run an external Technics Parametric EQ via the tape loop "Set to replicate the Fletcher-Munson curve and correct for my room". When I want this enabled, I flip the switch to monitor Tape 2 where it resides. :-)
  
  
• System 2: McIntosh C52 based. I purposely sought out this Pre-Amp because of its EQ, which toggles on/off via front switch. Like above, I replicate the F-M Curve and a hint of Room Correction. I purposely bought this Pre-amp for this explicit purpose and late night listening.
  
  
• System 3: Schitt Loki EQ. Just like above, I use this in my Office system with powered monitors to emulate the Loudness curve.
  
  
• System 4: Computer - Amarra and/or iTunes. I just do it in Software. iTunes actually has a per-programmed "Loudness" setting.
  

Call me old school, but give me this (eq) functionality/capability over using e$oteric cables ’for tone control’ any day. If I want brighter, darker, or tighter sound, I turn a few knobs to my liking.  If a recording sucks and FLAT isn't cutting it, turn a few knobs.  :-)

Bring back the "Tape Loop"!!!!

There are some preamps out there with bass & treble adjustments on the remote. Emotiva makes one.
My old Luxman preamp had both a loudness button and bass & treble controls.
I end up doing a lot of low-volume listening with my Maggies....not a good combination...but bass & treble controls make it enjoyable. 
Have you considered a Schitt Loki equalizer?
https://www.schiit.com/products/loki

I use the loudness on a McIntosh tube tuner, for me it gives the music depth and body, fills out the sound, something is missing without it. 

I haven’t owned a single piece of gear for either home or car audio that doesn’t have a "loudness" feature (it is sometime cleverly renamed) ; and I never will. A true variable Fletcher-Munson is where its at. I like the fatness/punch and warmth it provides at low volumes.
And for what it’s worth - a lot of "purist" are not really purists anyway. How many are running Dirac, or Audyssey, or ARC ? Shouldn’t they be physical treating their room rather than using processing to flatten their response? Room correction processing is just the new/hip thing - so they are ok I guess.... I say use it all - what ever gets you to the experience that puts a grin on your face and that warm fuzzy feeling from head to toe when your system is singing just the way you like it......

"...with a well judged contour..."

Wow. Now I remember that some brands had "contour" switch.

I think Grundig was one of them, but am not sure anymore.

Like Vermonster, I have sold the Yamaha variable loudness concept for years, and he explains it perfectly.  [They actually did make one stereo receiver model with VL on the remote (it had 2 motorized pots), as Jovian notes...this shoulda been the default design].  But I want to mention the approach taken by Crown Int'l with their IC-150 preamp.  Like most pushbutton loudness buttons, it grossly overcompensated, making it a glorified bass boost at all levels...BUT...in the manual they explained its proper use...with the VC set to 2PM (where its effect disappeared), the user was to lower the input gain controls on the amplifier (which theirs had) to set the inflection point where the ear heard full range...thus calibrating the loudness button properly, making it much more effective.  Also, McIntosh has a variable loudness knob on their C-20 classic tube preamp...and it's the best one I've found, with a well judged contour and that's based on 1960s research on frequency dependant hearing perception.

geoffkait,

">>Sure, if it was a digital volume control, which it probably wasn’t. Goodie for you anyway."

I have no idea what kind of volume control it was (mostly SONY CDP 790 and then a few ES models), but it was very usable when plugged into a no-volume-control devices. It even gave you remote control for volume.

glubson
The only problem is that I could never figure out how not to mess it up. 

>>>>No surprise here. 🤗

glupson

"...a single volume amp designed and built by Pierre’s partner Ron Bowman. No volume control, no tone control."

That is how some of us used CD players with variable outputs. We did not need amplifier’s volume control.

>>>Sure, if it was a digital volume control, which it probably wasn’t. Goodie for you anyway.

bluorion,

Yamaha integrated amplifiers have a little bit of a different approach to "loudness button". It is not even a button and it is variable. From what I understand, and that is very questionable, it does not boost some frequencies but lowers some others. You turn it up or down as you see fit, not just on/off, so it should be helpful with atmasphere’s concern.

The only problem is that I could never figure out how not to mess it up. In my experience, it is worthless. Your experience may be better, those engineers have not put it there for nothing.

EDIT: It seems that Yamaha amplifiers you may be considering (higher-priced) do not have loudness control. There is a loudness control on lower-priced ones (model 801, etc.), but you lose meters. So you are stuck with Luxman and, maybe, Accuphase. Which is not a bad spot to be stuck at, by the way.

"...a single volume amp designed and built by Pierre’s partner Ron Bowman. No volume control, no tone control."

That is how some of us used CD players with variable outputs. We did not need amplifier's volume control.

"ebm is probably right ie most people never understood or used it."

I suspect those who have it use it but are ashamed to admit it in front of others. Of course, not many have it.

I never use tone controls, but I do use loudness button at times.

I usually listen to music at low levels (SPL) and miss the equalization that a Loudness control provides. Unfortunately, any alteration of the sound is frowned on by the audiophile community, despite the need defined by the Fletcher-Munson curves.

bluorion122 posts06-06-2020 5:54amI had a Denon integrated amp many years ago with a loudness button---loved it at lower volumes. I'm looking into getting a new integrated soon and the Luxman integrated is my #1 choice since they still have a loudness button. I wish the new Yamaha's had them.

The Luxman integrated amps are great, far beyond the inclusion of the Loudness button.

Also, it becomes necessary to protect people from themselves. In this case, many people may have just left the loudness switch in the on position regardless of volume. This could result in damaging a speaker or at least distorted sound. When I was in the army from 1975 to 78, this was the golden era of receivers. Everyone had one! Guys would blast them all night and weekend long! People were returning them damaged to the PX left and right. (The PX asked no questions. All were covered under warranty). Getting rid of the loudness switch was maybe one small way of dumbing the receiver down. There was a standing joke in the army; They used to write "TGIF" on the inside of our boots. Toes go in first! Joe

I have tone controls on my main integrated but still use a Schiit EQ to pull out a little midrange. I run Klipsch speakers, so they can be a little bright, which I knew when I bought them. That is the closest I can get to a loudness curve.
The current gen of Yamaha integrateds still have variable loudness too. Looking at one since the R900 in my office is dying a slow death-of-a-1000-broken-solders-and-switches.
-Geoff

I had a Denon integrated amp many years ago with a loudness button---loved it at lower volumes. I'm looking into getting a new integrated soon and the Luxman integrated is my #1 choice since they still have a loudness button. I wish the new Yamaha's had them.

4+ years ago I had a Parasound A23, which had VC on the back for each channel. It helped in my non-symmetrical room

Thanks to everyone for the responses.  It seems that of those that responded, more are not in favor of the feature.  That would support the reason why the feature has virtually disappeared from the market (exceptions were noted).

Thanks again

I had a Yamaha receiver for my office system that had the variable loudness.  As Vermonster said, you turned up the volume to the maximum you were likely to ever listen and then used the rotary loudness control to decrease the output to the desired level and it would increase the loudness compensation as the level decreased.  It worked very well except for one problem.  The remote had a volume control but no loudness control, so you couldn’t use the feature with the remote.  Good idea poorly implemented.

I mean "I've never used"...

I have (among others) a vinatge Sansui AU-517 integrated amplifier but I've never use its loudness switch. I even prefer to listen to it flat, though I always used loudness buttons of Sansui and Pioneer amps in my youth.. Tastes and listening habits tend to change... 

Buy a McIntosh preamp they actually have different levels of loudness. So much freedom!

I miss having a loudness button...it made a definite positive change when listening at low levels.