I have very little concern for those who want to argue against my experiences and choices.
^Maybe get the moderators to lock the thread^ then?
I cannot argue your experiences, as they are yours.
The choices are also yours.
The reasoning behind those choices, and the “data” that was the basis of that is something that could be argued.
I suppose I have very little concern for you as well. However in theory I have concern for others who would be open to discussion as to how and why we choose the things that we do, and whether there is a good process for doing that.
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I also remember Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review saying after reviewing a Mark Levinson Amp, that even though it’s measurements were similar to other amps, that it was the amp he would choose for himself...
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Hey @Holmz
Unfortunately most of those discussions do not actually provide new information, a new perspective, or new methods of evaluation and test. The arguments tend to pool around whether the scientific methods which are in the domain of common hobbyist knowledge are adequate to explain perceived phenomenon. At a certain point you have been in this hobby long enough to know it's not productive, either in learning something new or in changing minds.
I have concern for others who would be open to discussion as to how and why we choose the things that we do, and whether there is a good process for doing that.
And that's a much better discussion. It's the listener's wallet, lifestyle and value system which to me matters most.
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Or worse, discussions around random quantum effect phrases are brought up to explain what simple impedance and frequency response changes could account for.
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These alleged sonic difference between power amplifiers, are they musically significant?
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Now the site Audio Science Review pushes the same.
It is not science. Theories are tested. A good theory passes ALL critical testing. A simple listening test proves that the theory that all amps that measure the same sound the same has been thoroughly debunked.
These alleged sonic difference between power amplifiers, are they musically significant?
They most certainly are. BTW it's not alleged, you just have to listen. Long term evaluation is the only way to do that.
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These alleged sonic difference between power amplifiers, are they musically significant?
They can be! I think the mistake that Julian Hersch and a lot of the folks over at ASR were/are making is arbitrarily deciding how low distortion has to be before its inaudible. IMO/IME it needs to be considerably lower than previously thought. I think this is because the ear is so keenly tuned to the presence of higher ordered harmonics, since it uses them to tell how loud a sound is. IME when the amp is at 6dB below full power those higher ordered harmonics have to be below -100dB in order to be masked, otherwise the amp will sound harsh at volume.
Harshness is unpleasant and IMO, not worth paying for.
Alternatively the harmonics can be masked by a lower ordered harmonics- the 2nd or 3rd. In a nutshell, the differences you hear between amps is mostly their distortion signature.
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I recently was doing an A/B comparison on Preamps. One was $50k and the other $20k. The difference was so minute that I said even though the $50k was ever so slightly better, it would not warrant me to want to buy it. On the other hand, I did the same test with a $30k and $50k DAC and I ended up buying the $50k DAC. The level of detail in my mind was worth the extra $20k. Lastly, if you are talking about tube amps just changing the tubes can have a dramatic impact on the sound. So I guess it just depends but it is always great if you can do a real comparison in the same room.
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Correct spelling : Hirsch, and tested and reviewed at Stereo Review, not Audio. I immensely enjoyed reading him, as I did Harry Pearson, and some others. JH was an electrical engineer, and dedicated his life to the audio community. Look him up. Great story on Enjoy the Music. I am now listening to a chip amp ( I started a thread on it ), and it has " the least SOUND and the least PERSONALITY " of any amp I have ever owned. No question, amps have a sound ( tone )......and a personality ( everything else ). Everything has a sound, ime, although Ralph feels it is not so when you run " balanced ". This is my view from his posts. Enjoy ! MrD.
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@willgolf
“ I recently was doing an A/B comparison on Preamps. One was $50k and the other $20k. The difference was so minute that I said even though the $50k was ever so slightly better, it would not warrant me to want to buy it ‘
Really what brands / models were they ?
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Onhwy61 - These alleged sonic difference between power amplifiers, are they musically significant?
Atmashpere - They can be!
Which also means they may not be. Sometimes different is just different, not better/worse and sometimes not even musical important.
Just one more question -- are the reputed sonic differences profound or subtle.
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Just one more question -- are the reputed sonic differences profound or subtle.
More than a cable change, less than a loudspeaker change.
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That’s nice! Not everything sounds the same? I’ll buy that.
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Try going to ASR and ask who thinks Pass, Luxman and Ayre all sound the same. I can't speak for every member of any forum but from my understanding of the consensus view on ASR is not they all sound the same but that amps which measure the same and are kept within their comfortable limits would be very hard if not impossible to tell apart in an ABX listening test. I would think the 3 you mentioned sound different, could you pick which is which in a blind test? Or simply that they sound different and you prefer a certain one and could you consistently pick your preference?
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This discussion isn't about what I can hear, but what you can. I selected those three amplifiers for a reason though.
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I don’t want an amp to have a sound and the only way I know to meet what I don’t want to hear is with amps that have great measurements like Benchmark and others.
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I don’t want an amp to have a sound and the only way I know to meet what I don’t want to hear is with amps that have great measurements like Benchmark and others.
You'd have to convince me that:
- Those measurements prevent amps from having a sound
- That there is any value at all in it.
What good is neutral if it's not my favorite?
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What good is neutral if it's not my favorite?
None for you but I thought this was about once amps meet a certain threshold you can't tell them apart.
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Hey @Holmz
Unfortunately most of those discussions do not actually provide new information, a new perspective, or new methods of evaluation and test. The arguments tend to pool around whether the scientific methods which are in the domain of common hobbyist knowledge are adequate to explain perceived phenomenon. At a certain point you have been in this hobby long enough to know it’s not productive, either in learning something new or in changing minds.
I have concern for others who would be open to discussion as to how and why we choose the things that we do, and whether there is a good process for doing that.
And that’s a much better discussion. It’s the listener’s wallet, lifestyle and value system which to me matters most.
^agree^ and well said sir.
@atmasphere nailed it.
And there was a RM video where the fellow that makes test equipment (the one that Amir on ASR uses) was talking about that they need to measure “other things” to correlate what is heard.
So there is some room to go in bringing subjective things into alignment with objective measurements… and that work is on the objective side of things.
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and are kept within their comfortable limits would be very hard if not impossible to tell apart in an ABX listening test...
ABX is the worst possible way to listen to amp differences. Long term evaluation with many loudspeakers and lots of different music is the only way to evaluate amps. It takes time and effort. ABX is designed to provide poor results.
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Well tube amps certainly seem to sound different than high current soild state through Heil AMTs and I’ve done videos that easily prove this. Everything was held the same. The Vanessa tracks are within 0.1 dB and the SRV are within 0.5 dB using pink noise as a source.
Your study wasn't big enough to prove anything.
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Hirsch, Stereo Review
Proof of memory faults.
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Is this a hobby,or contest? I enjoy quality musical reproduction. The only parameters that matter is how it sounds to my ears and brain. Like any hobby,there are many ways to go at it. Many different levels of enthusiasm. Many different budgets. Many,many different philosophies. I can honestly say,the only measurement that I pay attention to is the measurement of how far apart my speakers are,and the distance from boundaries. Monetarily speaking, I spend what I feel comfortable spending. No more,no less.
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"Oh, Erik....You're just being a party pooper...." 😏
Just teasing...I'm one of those recumbent wretches that finds more variance between speakers (The Obvious) rather than the pre's and the amps.
The distinctions and differences become so subtle that it does require long form acquaintance, and that in itself seems to have tendencies to cement one's opinions about good/bad/*shrug* 'it depends...'
@invalid ...I'm running 'large' ESS amt's as well, and everything I've driven them with essentially creates the same performance with only minor differences.
One response in self I've noticed over time is that, when I've 'been away' from my pile of this 'n that, there's a 'readjustment' to my particular 'sound' as occurs.
What occurs in the interval can be a lack of music, the dependence on automobile audio, or even just my cell into my bluetoothed aids...
...which is Precisely Why I don't try to comment on anyone else's system on a 'one time trial' basis....
I Don't Hear What You Do, no.
Invite me for a weekend, and do nothing but....maybe....
We'll have to listen to what I like, which may drive you to distraction and a desire to hold me under until the bubbles stop....but, there it is...*L*
Audio as a hobby and pursuit is so tied up to personal preferences I'm awed that we can agree on some things, but are willing to be on the verge of an alley knife dance on that we don't...best done through a screen with distance...*snicker*
(I've my reservations about a meeting at an audio show that serves alcohol....*wry L*)
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@invalid "Well tube amps certainly seem to sound different than high current soild state through Heil AMTs and I’ve done videos that easily prove this. Everything was held the same. The Vanessa tracks are within 0.1 dB and the SRV are within 0.5 dB using pink noise as a source."
They sure do. 👍 The first time I heard it myself, was an unexpected pleasant surprise. :) The few times I reverted back to higher current solid state amplification, it did not take long to put the mono tube amps back into play. Fun and interesting.
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Because we have heard it with our own ears so many times it has become commonplace to us, but it is in truth quite miraculous that you can send an electrical impulse (or whatever it is) through a wire from one box into two other boxes and the sound of an orchestra comes out. Since the thing is magical altogether it’s not really hard to believe that different magicians can do the trick differently.
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I don’t think many people will argue if there are / are not sound differences between amps, given a certain minimum price level. We can quickly agree there are ... who knows simply because some amps may deliberately have been built to not sound 100% "neutral’.
It’s more that some equipment is (highly) overpriced. Which in my definition is the case when the price is multiple factors over the net worth of the sum of the components used. Of course this is deliberate, targeting a certain public with deep pockets.
Also there’s the law of the reduced added value. I don’t think an amp priced 10.000 sounds five times better than a 2000 one. Those last eight thousand may render you some very tiny nuances, if any at all.
The amp’s casing may be a ’work of art’, which might be worth the extra 8000 to some. Your resemblance to expensive ’jewelry watches’ is spot on.
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Why limit yourself to amp/preamp. While certainly not ‘ending the debate’ the same applies to in no particular order: dacs, cartridges, streamers, cd-players … The acknowledged measurements of performance are at best a limited subset of parameters for human hearing acuity. Another point of note: the substantial impact of improvements to the mains supply (starting with a separate line, improvements via better grounding, power filtering and conditioning, whether by active or passive mains conditioners, power strips and cables or additional devices such as Shunyata, Lessloss, Furutech NFT et al) is never included in any measurements.
Any well sorted system is the result of multiple fine tuning steps extracting maximum synergy from its components. This is again totally ignored when putting individual units onto the ‘scientific’ test benches.
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Do not forget the component synergy of a complete system, right from electricity supply to brain. The matrix of possibilities is massive. A small change is system set up will change the sound of a system in favour of one component, e.g. amplifier brand over another.
A-B testing in your own system at home is useful for finding the sound that YOU are listening for. A-B testing in any other situation is not very helpful, save to possibly allow one to make a shortlist of products to audition at home.
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Before Julian Hersch who is/was no more than a pundit, there was Peter Walker who designed amplifiers, good ones, in the 1950s.
He said 'an amplifier is a straight wire with gain', defining his belief that 'all well designed amplifiers sound the same'.
Each of us may opine on how different today's top amplifiers sound to his Quad 33 and 303.
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Strangely enough, only yesterday was I reading through the Restek website (the manufacturer of my pre-amp). What CEO Adrianus Elschot writes makes a lot of sense (copy/paste the German into Google Translate): while they do measure their equipment not only during the design phase but also during the manufacturing process, they also listen to each unit extensively.
Elschot states that measurements allow for an objective evaluation of product quality and product consistency and minimises sample variation In addition, each unit is listened to by several employees, on different days, and in different locations because each such analysis is dependent on the listener's mood and form on the day. Of course this business model can only work for small-scale manufacturers.
This combination of objective measurements and subjective evaluations both during R&D and during manufacturing makes for a very compelling argument that one needs both in order to make a judgement on a piece of equipment, whether it be as a manufacturer, a reviewer, or a customer.
As an aside, I believe Restek, Krell and other high-end manufacturers who encourage the sustainability aspect of our hobby by ignoring the trend towards planned obsolescence and offering servicing and updating of older gear deserve a shout out.
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The only amps that don't have a sound are those that are turned off.
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@willgolf
Please tell me the $50K DAC was the Lampi Pacific.
I was at an audiophile club demo day a few years ago where they had Pure Audio Project speakers with the field coils driven by a prototype Lampi integrated and the Pacific DAC. I fell in love with a track by Jessica Williams that was played, Heather. I have yet to hear that reproduced the same way since. Expensive DAC but clearly audible excellence.
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Room, different levels of hearing, monetary investment, system synergy...so many factors go into this topic. I have 8 mid-level amps and none are significantly different to me. Number 9 just showed up and it may prove me wrong. Too soon to tell and my "measurement system" is 100% subjective.
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I could tell electronics that were rated & tested similarly sounded different in high school w/ my large advent speakers & Pioneer vs Kenwood vs Marantz receivers.
The extreme example of this is tube vs solid state power amps. Even though the tuned amp rated more or less the same as a similarly spec’d transistor unit, we all know they will likely sound quite differently. Generally speaking the tube may suffer a bit in the frequency extremes the really good & often expensive ones often don’t) but have a richer & fuller midrange with more air & space which could be called imaging.
If measurements were all that mattered in sound reproduction, then why should anyone buy anything more expensive than the Benchmark line of nice & reasonably priced solid state stuff? John Atkinson says these measure as good as anything he’s tested, especially their preamp.
My theory of product value in most things is you don’t always get what you pay for but you very rarely get what you don’t pay for.
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I can't begin to comprehend someone spending $50,000 for a DAC. I wonder if they should spend their money instead on a tube amplifier. They must have a very understanding wife to spend that kind of money.
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Or enough money Larry that price is irrelevant. I remember reading an interview a few years ago with a designer of an incredibly expensive tube amp. He said he hoped to sell 2 or 3 a year worldwide for 3 or 4 years…
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He said 'an amplifier is a straight wire with gain', defining his belief that 'all well designed amplifiers sound the same'.
@clearthinker When he said that, apparently no 'well designed amplifiers' existed- they all sounded different! On top of that, the 'straight wire with gain' thing is false!
Starting in the late 1950s with Mac and EV, there has been a move to drive loudspeakers with a voltage source. This is the idea that an amplifier that can make constant voltage regardless of the load impedance. This was done to improve 'plug and play' since prior to that speakers had level controls to adjust the speaker to meet the amplifier's voltage response (those controls were not there to adapt the speaker to the room).
A straight wire (regardless of gain) cannot do this. So 'thanks' Peter Walker, for creating one of the longer standing myths in audio.
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Lost in your logic is quality of the build. Yes you can buy an amp that will sound great for a low price point but with an inferior build quality how long will it last and how dependable will it be? I can buy a entry level suv that can get me down the road the same as my Lexus but now I have to wear a kidney belt from the terrible ride, turn up the am radio to overcome the road noise, and then account for the additional time in the repair shop. Then I also drive my Lexus worry free each and every day not having to think each day what will break next. My enjoyment of music is the same knowing my system will perform day in and day out the way it has for the last 20 years. Dependability is part of the enjoyment. You want the budget option that is fine with me but I want more and will stick with my logic.
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I'm sorry, by saying I wanted to end the debate I really meant I wanted to start one. 😈
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I'm sorry, by saying I wanted to end the debate I really meant I wanted to start one. 😈
Nothing wrong with that. I chimed in with my two cents but amps aren't something I really think about much anymore. I mostly listen to active speakers and half the time don't know what amp they are using.
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Erik, I would like to know the reason you choose those 3 amps. Thank you.
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@dwmaggie
Because to me, they sound very different, they are popular but I like 2 of them and really don’t like 1 of them.
The Ayre is one I like a lot, but it sounds ... almost surreal, like it sucks noise out of a room. It’s a very unique experience, it’s not unpleasant at all, but I find the experience of listening to it so distinct I think many others should be able to hear it as well.
Pass should actually sound different since he adds measurable euphonic distortion. Some like it a great deal, and I am not in that camp, but whether I like it or not, that does make it sound like a different amplifier. Pass also seems to work really well with big box/big woofer speakers for many so that’s another reason that I put this brand on the triad.
PS - I am fine with those who love Pass, and if my triad helps you find a Pass amplifier you fall in love with I’ll be happy as can be.
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AHOFER.... Wow thanks for the link. Brings back some great memories.
IME over the past 40 + years, particularly this level of Audio. I have witnessed people (them) at the $30K level are concerned with the look the build and the sound.
Blindfolded you may not hear the difference , however the right room and lighting will make all the difference in the world . Remember if it wasn't for them those beautiful looking DAC's and Amp's might not be available
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I think the three brands chosen are an excellent choice for the discussion as they are all excellent but different...I like all 3 ...
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If you wonder if capacitors sound different, build a two way and experiment for yourself.
But all you will know is they sound different in that configuration along with the rest of the system and the room.
Nothing can be evaluated in exclusio.
Flaws in one system may be ameliorated by defects in another. Grunge monsters may prefer a completely different set of flaws to an opera lover.
While both are excellent, swapped, the Class D woofer amp and tube mid range are pretty unlistenable. Either full range into a different loudspeaker are PDG!
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I think that too many of you end up listening to your equipment rather than your
music out of pure boredom, or the thought that there will always be something better out there that makes your already excellent system sound maybe 1% better. Its a rabbit hole that knows no bottom,and the people lined up to find said bottom is astonishing.
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