Let me end the Premp/Amplifier sound debate ...

BTW, my point to this whole thread is that there are those of us with experience, who are confident in it, and those who lack it. The gap cannot be closed by argument. The proof is in the number of posts this thread has already.

The debate here is endless. Go get experience for yourself and then decide what to do.

The trap is that with enough discourse something better emerges, or a position that needs no defense can be defended. I don't care if you believe me or not.  You need to believe yourself.  The second worst outcome in audio is "I spent a ton of money on an amp this guy on Audiogon said was his favorite but I can't tell a difference between it and my $10 earbuds."

I thought "a straight wire with gain"  is unachievable currently but would be the most desirable scenario for ultimately the best possible sound.

The question to my mind is, always, is this an intellectual desire or a desire of the heart?  Does your heart want a straight wire with gain or does it want something engaging? Sometimes those match, sometimes they do not.

Much of our joy and passion in audio comes from pursuing loftiness.  Big ideals, and, to me, denying our passion which has no ruler to use when enjoying music.

@rauliruegas 

My point was very narrowly focused.  You made the 1980s sound like the dark ages of semiconductor manufacturing.  The reality is that it was nothing of the sort.

In those vintage years electronics were designed and builded using the active and pasive devices that existed. Designers have not " hundred " of options about and along that the today high-end meaning was non-existent so de electronics designs were manufactured with way different targets than today units

As some one who was involved in the daily design and manufacturing of electronic equipment in the mid to late 1980’s when Julian Hirsch was still very much alive and well, I can say this paragraph has been based with very little actual knowledge of the manufacturing supplies of the time, let alone the brands that flourished then either.  To give you some sort of reference, the first CD was released in 1982, but analog semiconductor electronics had been flourishing for a long time.

You make it seem as if we were still making transistors by hand.  The manufacturing of semiconductors for analog electronics was as robust as it is today. 

Ended on the opening post...

At long last, a student of logic.  @ieales 

@mapman 

Yes it did. Then it went off the rails and went somewhere else. 😂

Folks, it doesn't matter what sounds like what! I know people who's stereos would send most people running out of the listening room holding their ears because the listener has hearing damage in the high frequency area. IF YOU ENJOY X, THEN LISTEN AWAY,

I have proposed this for a very very long time.  While pundits (like me) can talk about differences, the only opinion that matters is that of the person purchasing the gear.

If you listen to my opinion, at all, you should do so only in how it may help you hear differences, not necessarily, or at all, about which is better.   Same for reviewers.  Having said this, my opinion is still a hundred times better than the price tag for deciding what sounds better. 😂

There is NO worse judge of audio sound quality or fit for an end user than the price tags.

Thanks @itsjustme

I sit corrected.

How many people in this audience do you really think even have those three amps for comparison?

Maybe no one.  But they are widely distributed. 

@dwmaggie

Because to me, they sound very different, they are popular but I like 2 of them and really don’t like 1 of them.

The Ayre is one I like a lot, but it sounds ... almost surreal, like it sucks noise out of a room. It’s a very unique experience, it’s not unpleasant at all, but I find the experience of listening to it so distinct I think many others should be able to hear it as well.

Pass should actually sound different since he adds measurable euphonic distortion.  Some like it a great deal, and I am not in that camp, but whether I like it or not, that does make it sound like a different amplifier. Pass also seems to work really well with big box/big woofer speakers for many so that’s another reason that I put this brand on the triad.

PS - I am fine with those who love Pass, and if my triad helps you find a Pass amplifier you fall in love with I’ll be happy as can be.

I'm sorry, by saying I wanted to end the debate I really meant I wanted to start one.  😈

I don’t want an amp to have a sound and the only way I know to meet what I don’t want to hear is with amps that have great measurements like Benchmark and others.

You'd have to convince me that:

• Those measurements prevent amps from having a sound
• That there is any value at all in it.

What good is neutral if it's not my favorite?

This discussion isn't about what I can hear, but what you can. I selected those three amplifiers for a reason though. 

Or worse, discussions around random quantum effect phrases are brought up to explain what simple impedance and frequency response changes could account for. 

Hey @Holmz

Unfortunately most of those discussions do not actually provide new information, a new perspective, or new methods of evaluation and test. The arguments tend to pool around whether the scientific methods which are in the domain of common hobbyist knowledge are adequate to explain perceived phenomenon.   At a certain point you have been in this hobby long enough to know it's not productive, either in learning something new or in changing minds.

I have concern for others who would be open to discussion as to how and why we choose the things that we do, and whether there is a good process for doing that.

And that's a much better discussion. It's the listener's wallet, lifestyle and value system which to me matters most.