My belief is that you should be able to discern the quality system regardless of acoustical treatments. The problem is it's very difficult to play around with things given the massive weight of all the equipment. Once you get everything in place it's very difficult for you to swap in and out different options and you're pretty much stuck with what you've got.
It's not rocket science, if you have an echo room get a rug, buy some furniture and maybe stick an absorption panel on one of the walls and corners. Unfortunately most people are hard-pressed to put acoustical crap on their ceilings. Getting rid of reverbs is important and size of the room is important. If you've got a very large room you're gonna need a lot of power to fill it with sound and of course speakers can handle it. Again it's not rocket science. And if you need special gear to test the environment so you can feel more confident that's a problem, you should be able to discern it all by yourself.
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@zuesman So true about concrete. I remember seeing Tangerine Dream in concert, in 1986-7, at a small venue in Chicago. It was standing room only, on concrete floors. I remember the bass reverberating in my feet, from the concrete then feeling it in my body. It was one of the loudest concerts I have been to.
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ronboco,
actually you're wrong on that one there is a video from the owner of the company showing that when you stamp on concrete you get just as much vibration coming through the floor just at a different frequency then from wood so you would benefit just as much, I was shocked when he stamped on the floor and the little seismographs that were on the speakers started jumping up and down like crazy with the needle I didn't think concrete would transmit anything so I think you should give them a try like I said if you don't like them you can send them back and they give you your money back no one has ever sent a pair back yet.
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Having just experienced this first hand: you need to treat your room.
To be more accurate, you need to know how to determine AND hear HOW your room is coloring altering or outright changing sound, sound stage, frequencies, etc. This should be a testing process that people go thru when setting up their components and their speakers in their listening area.
I went thru this with my step father, who has been an audiophile my whole life. His incredible system and amazing top notch speakers literally sounded AND measured horribly in the room he had set up. To him though, it sounded amazing and never heard anything better. To me, it was literally unlistenable....and oddly to him, it was unlistenable as well he just didn't realize it (never listens above 65db, only listened for an hour or two).
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I can't really determine if you're making this blanket statement with sincerity or there's a level of trolling. If it's the former, I can't really take your opinion seriously if you think room acoustics have zero effect on the sound quality of a "good" hi-fi setup or that the same system can overcome bad room acoustics. I would suggest you do the following experiment before you stand firm upon the soapbox of certainty.
Take your system and set it up in the various rooms of your living situation. I suspect that the system won't be able to overcome the acoustical drawbacks of each room (bedroom, bathroom, living room, closet, garage) and be able to sound the same in each space. DSP software can only get you so far when it comes to room correction and dealing with reverb, signal delay, and non-ideal room dimensions.
If anything, the more expensive a system setup is, the more important acoustically treating the listening room and room correction becomes to take full advantage of what the system can reveal. If you're simply listening to music streaming on a portable Bluetooth speaker then yes, the room doesn't matter when it comes to the low sound quality bar you have set for yourself.
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As many are tired of hearing, I am a resolved fan of speaker’s having level controls.
Speakers leave the factory like a person put on a ship in blinders, no idea where they are going, certainly not going to perform as tested in a foam lined space.
I wouldn’t spend a nickle on room treatments until after I adjusted the speakers in THIS space.
test cd, sound pressure meter on tripod, seated ear height, listening position,
1. test cd with many separate frequency bands, individually selectable, and repeatable, not just sweeps or pink noise.
amazing bytes, $25. (several at historic low prices)
2. sound pressure meter (needs bottom tripod hole)sound pressure meter
ADJUST HOW?
3. I have two L-Pads, simple adjust mid to woofer and tweeter to mid, makes significant difference. Another space, re-do it there.
4. modern, no level controls: I just bought this DBX clone Equalizer in anticipation of results of my upcoming hearing test. Age 75, they will find something!
Amazon, returnable, easy to try, hear how silent it is.
Dual Band 31 1/3 octave frequency adjusters
Zero noise, bypass, ’0’ detents, 3u height sliders have more precision.
................................................
bypass for listening with friends and my presumed hearing aids in
engaged for me, no hearing aids, inverse of what they measure.
Based on my friends experience, simple 3 tone control adjustment from his phone, eq should be a more specific curve
...................................
another use: find better/best positioning and measure results of various toe-in angles as well as slanted back to aim tweeter to seated ear height, and alter initial room reflections
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I’m curious about this.
I think my system sounds pretty good but am wondering with room treatment would it sound better. Without spending a bunch of money how does one evaluate this?
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@zuesman
Im sure you are correct that the podiums are better than the iso acoustic footers. They do get outstanding reviews from most everyone that uses them. My 2 channel system is in the basement on concrete so I think the benefit would be negligible. I may try them someday just to see how they sound though.
Regards
Ron
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I concur with asvjerry completely :
One could at minimum engage in some DSP magik with a furnishing shuffle, a 'to taste' rug, and pleasing fabric hangings that mask some absorption materials..
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I concur with Hilde45 completely :
Seriously, improving sound does not require an elaborate listening room or a Ph.D. in acoustics. It's a hobby which requires a little knowledge and effort. Like fishing. Like golf. Give me a break -- it's not that hard. If one doesn't want to try, then that's their call. But it's not the fault of the hobby.
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One could at minimum engage in some DSP magik with a furnishing shuffle, a 'to taste' rug, and pleasing fabric hangings that mask some absorption materials...
Viola'! A 'freshened' space with a new 'audio-positive' stance...
The SigOther(s?,,,,*L*) will love it....or at least, pause to listen before it all gets moved back.....
...and I've been watching too many 'DIY home makeover/reno' shows....
...so I'm going to go lie down now....
,,,,avoiding what happens beyond 1:35
(....love the "High & the Mighty" whistling....)
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the real world means no dedicated listening room, probably the majority here....
A lot of people using room treatments have no clue as to where to even place them, rendering them useless or even detrimental.
Many people -- not everyone -- have a room for a couch and TV. They just don't use it for audio. They could. They don't. So, there's that.
A lot of people using room treatments could figure out where to place them if they tried, just a tiny bit.
Seriously, improving sound does not require an elaborate listening room or a Ph.D. in acoustics. It's a hobby which requires a little knowledge and effort. Like fishing. Like golf. Give me a break -- it's not that hard. If one doesn't want to try, then that's their call. But it's not the fault of the hobby.
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We cannot change or hide the basic truth about audio because it is impossible for most to realize it completely... 😊
And then only speaking of gear price tags upgrades as the solution for all people (because they dont have a dedicated room )
Or could we not as all marketing reviewers does to sell ? 😁
the real world means no dedicated listening room, probably the majority here.
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Some of us live in the real world, with unappreciated nagging wives etc...I know of no women who is into any of this audiophile jazz...the real world means no dedicated listening room, probably the majority here. If you do have one , then consider yourself blessed. In a real home setting, your gear is typically stuffed in your living room where ever you can fit it. Room treatments are sorely lacking as that needs wife approval status, ain’t happening. Room Is neither too reflective or absorbing, not scientifically determined. It is based on what is in it, ie hard and soft furnishings, soft pillows, wall to wall carpet, tapestry, curtains, drywall and drywall/studded cement walls, large sectional couch, record shelves, cd shelves, low ceiling, listening space maybe 16x14, open on right side to rest of room, doorway to right to another adjacent room, etc etc....not perfect, but sounds ok to me. I sit only 7 feet away from speakers, of which are point source tannoy toed in at ears. There Is space behind the listening spot, the speakers are a tad more Than 1 foot from front wall (all i can do) and spaced equidistant to my listening spot. Speakers are situated on the longer wall. That’s my reality. Most speaker manufacturers do not anticipate you placing their speakers in an anechohic chamber. A lot of people using room treatments have no clue as to where to even place them, rendering them useless or even detrimental. Unless of course you hire some acoustical experts.i think I'll live in my real world for now.
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@ronboco - shouldn't be that surprising - I'd assume I'm not the only one here who does not live in a big house with a number of rooms, one of which can be purely an audio room. Some people live in apartments or smaller houses and do not have the luxury of all these extra rooms.
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r o n b o c o,
As good as the ISO acoustic Gaia are the Townshend podiums are on a whole different level better if you go on the forum here you'll see that people that have tried both have said that, they said that the Gaia's were very good but the podiums were on a whole different level better and if you put your speakers on these you'll notice how much better they'll sound than the Gaia, the Gaia don't isolate down to three Hertz like the podiums do that's why there's no vibration in the floor or the sidewalls I hope you'll try them you'll never go back to the Gaia.
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Great info everyone. Im a pure novice but this is my take Bought some towers with active woofers (paradign founders 120h)They sounded great in the store. Got them home and was disappointed in the bass. They are in a multi purpose room with alot of hard surfaces. I added a thick area rug and some panels from GIK and holy sh....what a difference. Huge improvement! Went to axpona and after hearing all the remarkable systems I'm still pretty damn proud of mine. Room treatments are huge. I need to post an updated picture of my system as it has changed a lot.
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@zuesman
I suspect you have your system on a suspended wooden floor to notice such a difference. Our home theatre is on such a floor and we have isoacoustics footers under all speakers and subs. They did tighten up the bass nicely.
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I should have mentioned, paying particular attention to the: Architectural acoustics portion, of that second reference url.
Happy listening!
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To say the room is not important is like saying the croissant is not important- its all about the butter.
That is not a good analogy--not even close.
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@emergingsoul
Your equipment does its best to reproduce your sources and that was all it was designed to do.
unless your room is a sphere, lower frequencies are going to reflect out of the corners of your room at different speeds and it can make your bass sound muddy. That is just one reason all rooms need some help. What I’m referring to here can be helped by bass traps. There are dozens of other issues you can have. Most people don’t have all of the, but everyone has some.
All the best.
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ronboco,
I really don't know how the podiums do it but all I can tell you is that the vibrations in the floor were gone and the vibrations in both side walls were gone and the sound stage was so much deeper wider more articulate and they give you a money back guarantee, if you don't think they improve the sound you can send them back and get all your money back, to this date no one has ever sent a pair back yet.
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@djcxxx i know that the room makes a huge difference. It’s easier to get it when the room is great and treated. But if you can’t you can still have great sound.
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@ozzy62
Thank you for that, that was sweet😍
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I doubt that vast majority here has dedicated listening room.
This is why i did not study acoustics basic before owing one...
This is why most people dont really experiment with acoustics...
This is why they think the opposite of truth that the greater the price tags the better the sound..
This is why they dont understand with their ears/brain in real time how and why acoustics parameters shape our sound perception ..
This is why they ignore that the costlier part of any TOP system is the room acoustics...
This is why they stay victims of gear marketting practices and reviewers ...
This is why they are consumers not creative and passive believing audio is a "taste" for some pieces of gear ...
This is why.... I will stop here ... 😊
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@zuesman
How do the podiums get rid of all the bad reflections in an untreated room ?
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Simply because room isn't recording studio unless you fully dedicate it to listening.
I doubt that vast majority here has dedicated listening room.
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@emergingsoul , is the basic premise of your thread that you are asking if the love for room treatment might be based on confirmation bias?
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We will all gain something being much empathic...😊
It does not takes a genius to understand that emergingsoul love to discuss by lack of social contact and being interested by audio and music came here ...
Those who come here for only accurate information are welcome...
Those who come for need of social contact must be welcome ...
If this forum were just about information it will be boring...
We can inform ourselves anywhere on the web and in articles and in books...
The main interesting thing here are the people characters...😊
To analyse some information anyway we need to know the character...
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Allowing that emergingsoul suffers some medical/physical limitations, the noted high number of discussions started do raise some questions. Also, have not seen any description of his system offered. The few topics I have read started by emergingsoul cover topics beaten to death previously in many forums. Also appears any valid suggestions in response to emergingsoul are rejected or deflected by a tangential change of the subject. In short, seems emergingsoul is not really interested in audio, only attention.
If that opinion is incorrect, post details of your system and engage in meaningful discussion. For example, if you think room treatment is a waste of time, present some fact based information.
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@thecarpathian
I dictate I could not possibly type all the words I share. But dictation is not a perfect science so it's very frustrating to use it
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If you listen in the near field at low to moderate volume and your loudspeakers don't produce deep bass, then you don't really need room acoustic treatments. Otherwise you probably would benefit from some form of acoustic treatment. However, there is an alternative path where you get loudspeakers that are designed to interact minimally with a room. The Swedish manufacturer Gradient did much work along these lines, but there are others.
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@emergingsoul
Just when I think I've read the most ridiculous post yet, you go and prove me wrong again.
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The room doesn‘t have to look awful. Corner traps and diffusers come in some artistic looking designs. Balance is the key. Too much and the music will sound lifeless. Furniture also makes for good absorbers. And the room looks less lonely than a single chair in the center.
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@Emergingsoul, I am sorry to hear about your condition. That said, you could publish details of your system in a post on this thread. I’m sure it will require a word count less than many of your posts.
As regards the substance of your post, acoustic treatment can take many forms that do not require the use of dedicated treatment devices. But those devices, used appropriately do have an important role to play. I’ve come across many instances of people with expensive systems placed in bad sounding rooms, where their investment in equipment was effectively wasted and where a much more modest system combined with correct room treatment would have sounded better for less expenditure overall.
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There is something out there that will get rid of almost all room problems, It's called the Townshend podiums they isolate vibration down to three Hertz, as soon as I put them underneath my speakers all that thumpy bass that was going into the floor disappeared and same with the side walls and the improvement was as if I had upgraded to much more expensive electronics they're not cheap but a lot cheaper than putting up room treatments and making your room look god-awful.
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I've never had the need or felt the desire to have a dedicated listening room. After reading this post, I'm happy for myself!
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Okay. I'll give this a shot:
As long as our ears are still analog, we'll need to deliver music via mechanical means. These changes in sound pressure, essential for the reproduction of music, are projected into a space and interact with anything and everything they come in contact with. These objects create additional in and out of phase signals (coloration) and refraction/reflection (blurring) and other artifacts. A quick demonstration of basic acoustic principals could involve: 1) speaking normally, then 2) cupping your hands around your mouth and speaking the same information. A more advanced and room specific demonstration would be to position yourself in the center of the room and speak normally. Then, position yourself next to a wall and repeat. And perceived differences would demonstrate how "the room" is affecting the sound.
Helpful?
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Speakers are measured without the effect of a room for a reason. The room can change and color how it sounds.
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It would be sheer luck to have a room that doesn't need treatment, unless a person doesn't care, or doesn't know.
The cost of room treatment for me was $1100.
It is hard to integrate room treatment with living areas. I have a room that I can do what I want.
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Hi - I assume you are not out to take the mickey out of the rest of us so,
It’s about a really nice system in a room and you should be able to discern the qualities of a really nice system in room.
in order to do that, you have to hear the qualities of the system. Not all closed spaces are ideal for music --
It has to do with the acoustics of the venue - but then, you are a musician so you know that! Concert halls are "treated", often to great expense, in order to improve acoustics - no doubt you know only too well how much better some venues sound than others!
Your listening room is a mini concert hall; the recording (and mastering thereof) and the system reproducing said recording, try to provide a sonic simulation of the recorded (and mastered) musical event. I am sure you realise that too.
If the room acoustics aren’t good, you won’t hear the system as well and won’t perceive what the system’s real performance can be. (Likewise, if your speakers placement is mediocre.).
Your statement seems to be more a personal philosophy than anecdotal or otherwise :). Regards.
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To say the room is not important is like saying the croissant is not important- its all about the butter.
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@emergingsoul ,
I am sorry for the difficulties you are experiencing at present and I mean no disrespect, but you keep writing really long posts explaining why it's difficult to write really long posts.
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If you can't get a dedicated listening room or install acoustic treatment, whatever the reasons may be, then by all means, try to make it up with equipment alone. However to try to talk yourself in believing that a properly setup room is unecessary because of esthetics is laughable at best. It's like preferring wall "art" that matches your furniture. I'm all about substance over fluff, but it's just me. Obviously everybody is different. What matters most is to enjoy your system no matter how you do it. My house of stereo may look like a mess to some, but it's a beauty to me.
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The room is part of the "system". How can you have a "nice system" if you don't understand that?
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I was surprised to see that so many members here with six figure systems and decades of experience don’t have dedicated rooms. Most actually.
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I see I see yes
the earth is also flat because I see it is flat in my little world!
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