If you have a nice system why do you really need room treatments?
Yeah you may need an absorption panel if your room is completely open, ie. No rug or furniture, ie just lonely single chair. But if your system can't cut it in any room then it's a system problem and you should be able to discern a good system regardless of the room. Unless you put it on the roof of your apartment building but the Beatles seemed to have survived that effort
I think people go nuts with all this absorption acoustical room treatment stuff and it looks kind of awful. Once in a while you see a really cool looking diffuser panel and I would definitely want one. But to have a system that works really well without any of the acoustical panel distractions is a wonderful thing.
Like pulling teeth to get a description of the OP's system and room. Shocking, he has room treatment, although not sure if the room information provided is complete. At some point measurements are taken, with bass traps in a normal living room. It is not clear what was done to the room to cause a second set of measurements to be a little smoother.
If room treatment is excessive, according to the OP, but based on measurements - What is the problem??? No doubt overdone room treatment exists as does no room treatment. Personal choice!
The OP again demonstrates circular discussion, dissing room treatment, withhold system and room information, finally reveals personal room treatment along with implication of expertise regarding room treatment. Can anything from this OP be believed?
Very few residential rooms have any positive "room sound quality". The improvements with room treatment has as much to do with reducing "room sound" reverberations that distort the sound coming out of the speakers. This is really more important than modest deviations in frequency response, and will improve the sound quality of any room.
Using dirac, I did acoustical measurements and the original curve versus DSP were very similar. It got a bit smoother. The original subwoofer curve looked normal.
These measurements were done in a room that had virtually no acoustical treatments other than corner bass traps it was a normal living room with furniture.
I wish I could attached the curve pictures but this forum don't allow photos to be attached I guess.
Would love to know if other people test their rooms before and after doing acoustical panels and how the curve changes. Lots of the acoustical treatments are voodoo science with results that may not do very much most of the time and actually served to dampen the room sound quality
When you are sitting in a “modern design” restaurant with bare concrete walls, no baffles or absorption panels and cant hear anyone at the table because if all the noise, is this your ears issue or…
There is a very good and not too complicated book on room acoustic treatments - “The Master Handbook of Acoustics” by Everest. It explains everything.
when i added acoustic treatment elements, i measured everything with microphone and PC software.
Is there a question? You probably do know most people just buy absorption panels and corner base traps and just stick them in their room. Because everybody else does it. They already have lots of furniture already in the room and that does enormous improvements to transmission of sound. some chairs and a sofa and a bookcase is extremely helpful to sound. The bookcase serves as a diffuser.
Most people don't need all this acoustical stuff in their room.
Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room, a 20 x 20 thick wool rug and an assortment of furniture.
"I think people go nuts with all this absorption acoustical room treatment stuff and it looks kind of awful. ..... But to have a system that works really well without any of the acoustical panel distractions is a wonderful thing."
Response to milpai:
"Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room,"
Thanks for the details @emergingsoul. I was under the impression that you did not have any panels and had set up your system in such a way that it sounds amazing, as-is. I was trying to understand the context of your post.
I think however good the equipment is, the room physics will always play into the equation. Even with golden ration room, there have to be some nulls. So a room without acoustical treatment would be wonderful, if you can adjust to the fact that you can have less than ideal sound.
BTW, you do have a nice sized room and some very good equipment.
Big fan of Karen Carpenter, especially a live concert from 1974 performed in Japan. Remarkably entertaining and sound quality is pretty darn good. Video is called carpenters Live at budokan 1974 one hour and seven minutes, has some pre-concert footage too which is interesting. She was doing like 150 performances a year and overworked very sad situation
Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room, a 20 x 20 thick wool rug and an assortment of furniture. Not much more I can do with the room other than throw some panels on the ceiling which is 8 feet high, room size of 20 x 18. My system includes A McIntosh MC 901, Conrad Johnsen gat2 preamplifier, a lumin x one streamer dac, BMW speaker from 800 series and transparent speaker cables and interconnects. network switch from english eight, a nad av processor and a five channel mcIntosh solid state amplifier for centre and rear speakers.
@emergingsoul, Thank You for the complements. But that did not help, because seeing makes a difference and helps understand better, at least for me. And you did not mention anything about your room size, treatments, etc.
I do have Carpenters and Van Morrison albums. A couple of years ago, Spotify surprised me at the end of the year, by letting me know that I listened to 58 different genres of music. And all that time I thought I was focused on only 10-12 at the max.
Listening Space Absolutely Symmetrical? Doubtful for most I bet.
Just to clarify, AFTER measuring with test tones and Sound Pressure Mic, and AFTER trying tone controls, or dual channel 31 band 1/3 octave equalizer, if problems still exist: then I would consider room treatments.
Like others have mentioned, I have never felt I needed room treatments, current space: somewhat symmetrical, speakers slanted back and toe-in adjusted for tweeter dispersion to seated ear height. (wheels for alternate positions and alternate toe-in
Planning for success can make a big difference. I re-worked my office especially for Imaging when working, everything centered on the monitor. Had to weed/discard/move a bunch of files downstairs to achieve it, very glad I did.
Luckily my restored AR-2ax speakers have level controls because left side is adjacent to a wall, right side not. To live without balance controls is something I would never even consider.
Prior Wharfedale Speakers, surprisingly old AR-2ax sounded better.
I like your room, lots of interesting stuff. We have something in common, I also have a salamander rack just like yours, except mines on casters.
Also I have a salamander rack that's 25 years old and it's wide enough for two components and deep enough to handle an amplifier without sticking out in the back. It's three levels and built like a tank. Bought it originally for a tube TV for the top. Unfortunately they don't make it anymore which really sucks. But it's an awesome awesome rack. New ones are OK.
Do you need an album from the Carpenters in your collection. Nothing wrong with Karen Carpenter. Glad to see you have plenty of Eric Clapton hope you have Van Morrison somewhere.
I lived more than 50 years without correcting any room me too ... 😊
I’ve been in audio for 60 years, and haven’t corrected a room yet.
But unlike you i discovered and learned by experiments why and how i was wrong .😁
Most of the times because most room need it unbeknownst to the lazy owner or unbeknownst to those who anyway are unable to do it because it is a living room and they are married,
It is most of the times the result of acoustics basic science ignorance coupled often to gear price fetichism upgrading obsession ... 😁
I'm not the smartest chip on the block and tend to be very slow at learning things but this thread has really been enlightening. Fortunately I have a really nice wool rug and that's very helpful if I could only put it on the ceiling. Maybe I need one of these diffusers although I may have to get a lot of them to be something meaningful since one or two probably don't do much. All I read about acoustical measurements involved dedicated rooms that don't have furniture and that's not very helpful I like to see rooms that have lots of furniture stuff going on and then hear about decisions made to do some sound panels
There are so many really smart people contributing on this website. I was able to create this lovely comment through dictation and only touching the screen a couple times. You learn to speak more clearly and consider more carefully what you're saying when you dictate because if you screw up it's a bitch to edit
My room has catheral ceiling with a balcony. My system sound great to me.If having acoustically treated room would make my system sound like ,listening with headphones. That's interesting to me .I haven't used headphones in about 50 years.Using them would have killed my hearing.As we get older pur hearing disintegrates. I grew up in NYC with loud traffic,loud subways,seating up close to the stage and getting my ears blown out.Listing to my stereo loud.If i did use headphones for those 50 years now,I would certainly be deaf and not having the pleasure of listening to my music.If you use headphones while listening to music,Beware.
As this is allegedly a settled topic I will wade in only briefly:
- audio truism #1: the room is half your system.
- when my wife and I renovated our 1865 4.5 story brick townhouse based on a Calvert Vaux #5 design from his Villas and Cottages, I turned the 390 sq ft .5 story gable-ceilinged (no right angles) attic into my dedicated listening room. I did not cover the 5”-13” of rock wool insulation in the walls and ceilings with sheet rock. I instead covered it with fire resistant burlap. So: no acoustic panels: the entire ceiling and wall is an acoustic panel. Moroccan rugs cover the floor. The room is semi-anechoic: people immediately hear the difference in the sound quality of the room as they climb the stairs and enter the room.
The problem is that homes are built with the worst possible acoustics. Walls and ceiling/floor all parallel to each other causing standing waves and their harmonics - all bad. That is the cause, breaking up those resonances is the only solution.
Sorry, but that is an incredibly ignorant view of how sound works.
A room isn't some benign bystander. Just because it doesn't have bare walls and no furniture it doesn't mean it has no impact. The dimensions of the room itself can ruin even the best music equipment by creating nulls and standing waves.
Yeah I've got an area rug that I plan to put there and see if it has any effect. Aesthetically I don't need it but if it improves the SQ I'll move it in and out as the room function changes.
That’s a great looking room and system. Consider a large wool rug in front of your system. Wool reportedly has the best acoustic properties over synthetic materials and you can adjust, position it to taste. (Aurally and aesthetically).
Oh yes. Put your stereo at any price into an untreated gym and play it really loud. If you enjoy it that way, more power to you.
I can attest to the fact that it is not fun to listen to a stereo in an untreated gym. I've been working on mine for a couple of months now & it's getting to the point where I'm happy. Just a few more tweaks.
A great sounding room is a huge head start. Good sounding rooms are more than just good sounding for the stereo system. They’re pleasant rooms to be in, to talk in, to sing or play an instrument in. That’s the good news. A properly treated room just sounds nice all around, for all uses.
If you have a room that’s edgy sounding to talk in, you can hear your foot steps cavernously echoing off the walls and ceiling, how much better can you possibly expect the stereo to sound? This kind of sound can occur in well furnished rooms that have high ceilings because there can be a lot of bare wall space above the furnishing zone.
The bass is one area that might go unnoticed in daily activity because you are not necessarily making bass sounds that appear in music. I think that’s why bass treatments and equalization can still be necessary for a stereo system in an otherwise very nice sounding room that’s simply been treated with furnishings.
Another issue is symmetry and stereo imaging. The 2 speaker arrangement is a fragile thing in terms of imaging. Some strategically placed treatments on top of the standard furnishings can go a long ways to improve imaging. An imaging treatment can be as simple as an angled flat surface. I've got one of those in my office right now because there's a wall close to my right and not to my left. a 2' x 2' angled flat wooden panel centers the imaging for me.
The best system in the world can not fix bad acoustics. If the room is bad, chances are no matter what you put in it, will not sound good, or better said, not live up to its potential.
Something is really off with OP comments. He has started 225 posts, and has had 897 replies, in the past 3 1/2 years. Somehow conveying details of his superior system and the room it is in is somehow problematic? Hmmmm….
It is not insensitive or unfairly treating someone with a disability to expect the same conduct as that of anyone else on this forum. The OP has been asked repeatedly to describe his system. A reasonable request, yet no response. There is too much history of this OP starting a thread with a particular premise, then arguing both sides either in the same thread or another different thread.
Too much evidence of no meaningful contribution by the OP, only stirring the pot until everyone finally realizes there is nothing new of value being offered. OP contributions are pretty much, "Yeah, but . . ., Yeah, but . . . , Yeah, but . . .".
If you have a dedicated room, it need not look ugly.
I find great auditory and visual pleasure in my space. As I leave the reflective spaces in the rest of my house and enter my room, it is an "Ahhh" moment.
Something is really off with OP comments. He has started 225 posts, and has had 897 replies, in the past 3 1/2 years. Somehow conveying details of his superior system and the room it is in is somehow problematic? Hmmmm….
further, only a month ago he made this comment on a different post:
“Would you spend $250,000 for equipment in a room that just may not work out because of the way it's designed?? That room is gonna be an acoustical challenge it may never work out”.
According to his logic, couldn’t you simply throw money into a system and magically make these “acoustic challenges “ disappear “?
I think my system sounds pretty good but am wondering with room treatment would it sound better. Without spending a bunch of money how does one evaluate this?"
I was a room treatment denier. There I said it. I was also a cable denier. However I have now recognized that being a denier is not the way to hi fi happiness.
After some encouragement from friends in the hobby I added some sound treatments in my room, and they made a significant improvement. Total cost was about $800 from GIK. My system is posted so you can see the ceiling mounted panels. The panels on the sides are still to be mounted on the walls.
It’s not rocket science, if you have an echo room get a rug, buy some furniture and maybe stick an absorption panel on one of the walls and corners.
I agree 100%. That is how I did for my room (few 1st reflection points treated with Aurelex). The room should be bit live than dead sound.
In below videos, good treatment won’t get rid of the sound coloration. And my system sounds cleanest. Check out many live-recordings in YT (Chantal Beautiful Life). Alex/WTA
Original music
my system
In Youtube "Chantal Beautiful Life" for more live recordings.
The change isn't perceived when multiple people are sitting in the room and they hear the same thing it's definitely not perceived It's very apparent and the speaker is vibrating not from the woofers moving back and forth but from the vibrations coming through the floor back into the speaker again you really should watch Max Townshend explain all this stuff in the videos he's posted,Google Townshend podiums and you'll be able to o watch them.
And perhaps why such a big change is perceived is because the speaker is rocking back and forth due to the pistonic motion of the woofers and the woofers are unable to perform like they should. I’m going to do a vibration test video this weekend and will post the results.
When the bass goes into the floor it comes back and comes into the speakers vibrating the speakers and distorting the sound so the needle would be jumping all over the place from the return bass coming from the floor, that's what I tried to explain to you when I put my speakers on the podiums all that bass vibration that was in the floor and the side walls was gone so what happened the sound stage got wider deeper more airy spacious and three-dimensional than it already was and the base got tighter deeper and more articulate, also the vibration doesn't go back into the stand and your equipment that's another reason everything sounds better because the equipment is performing at a much higher level.
When the bass goes into the floor it comes back and comes into the speakers vibrating the speakers and distorting the sound so the needle would be jumping all over the place from the return bass coming from the floor, that's what I tried to explain to you when I put my speakers on the podiums all that bass vibration that was in the floor and the side walls was gone so what happened the sound stage got wider deeper more airy spacious and three-dimensional than it already was and the base got tighter deeper and more articulate, also the vibration doesn't go back into the stand and your equipment that's another reason everything sounds better because the equipment is performing at a much higher level.
@jperryLook at this as an opportunity to educate people and don't assume everyone is a longtime seasoned audiophile. If the person is just trolling and has a history of that in these forums that's a different story!
I definitely want to try them someday but I think how he is doing the testing should be considered. How many people stomp around on the floor while they are listening ? You can make anything vibrate if you give it a big enough shock. What does the needle do when there isn’t any sudden shocks ? I would like to see what the floor does when there is music playing. Put that needle on the floor. Again this applies to a concrete floor. And exactly how much vibration does it take to audibly change the sound ?
One useful experiment I think audiophiles should do is to record themselves talking in a living room or kitchen or dining room. Then listen on headphones.
What you will hear in the headphones is all the room resonances your brain is actively removing while listening.
So, taking this out of audiophile land, why treat a meeting room? Well, because your brain actually works less on acoustic filtering and you'll feel less tired. Same for classrooms, and auditoriums.
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