I've never had the need or felt the desire to have a dedicated listening room. After reading this post, I'm happy for myself!
If you have a nice system why do you really need room treatments?
Yeah you may need an absorption panel if your room is completely open, ie. No rug or furniture, ie just lonely single chair. But if your system can't cut it in any room then it's a system problem and you should be able to discern a good system regardless of the room. Unless you put it on the roof of your apartment building but the Beatles seemed to have survived that effort
I think people go nuts with all this absorption acoustical room treatment stuff and it looks kind of awful. Once in a while you see a really cool looking diffuser panel and I would definitely want one. But to have a system that works really well without any of the acoustical panel distractions is a wonderful thing.
190 responses Add your response
There is something out there that will get rid of almost all room problems, It's called the Townshend podiums they isolate vibration down to three Hertz, as soon as I put them underneath my speakers all that thumpy bass that was going into the floor disappeared and same with the side walls and the improvement was as if I had upgraded to much more expensive electronics they're not cheap but a lot cheaper than putting up room treatments and making your room look god-awful. |
@Emergingsoul, I am sorry to hear about your condition. That said, you could publish details of your system in a post on this thread. I’m sure it will require a word count less than many of your posts.
As regards the substance of your post, acoustic treatment can take many forms that do not require the use of dedicated treatment devices. But those devices, used appropriately do have an important role to play. I’ve come across many instances of people with expensive systems placed in bad sounding rooms, where their investment in equipment was effectively wasted and where a much more modest system combined with correct room treatment would have sounded better for less expenditure overall. |
If you listen in the near field at low to moderate volume and your loudspeakers don't produce deep bass, then you don't really need room acoustic treatments. Otherwise you probably would benefit from some form of acoustic treatment. However, there is an alternative path where you get loudspeakers that are designed to interact minimally with a room. The Swedish manufacturer Gradient did much work along these lines, but there are others. |
Allowing that emergingsoul suffers some medical/physical limitations, the noted high number of discussions started do raise some questions. Also, have not seen any description of his system offered. The few topics I have read started by emergingsoul cover topics beaten to death previously in many forums. Also appears any valid suggestions in response to emergingsoul are rejected or deflected by a tangential change of the subject. In short, seems emergingsoul is not really interested in audio, only attention. If that opinion is incorrect, post details of your system and engage in meaningful discussion. For example, if you think room treatment is a waste of time, present some fact based information. |
We will all gain something being much empathic...😊 It does not takes a genius to understand that emergingsoul love to discuss by lack of social contact and being interested by audio and music came here ... Those who come here for only accurate information are welcome... Those who come for need of social contact must be welcome ... If this forum were just about information it will be boring... We can inform ourselves anywhere on the web and in articles and in books... The main interesting thing here are the people characters...😊 To analyse some information anyway we need to know the character...
|
@emergingsoul , is the basic premise of your thread that you are asking if the love for room treatment might be based on confirmation bias? |
This is why i did not study acoustics basic before owing one... This is why most people dont really experiment with acoustics... This is why they think the opposite of truth that the greater the price tags the better the sound.. This is why they dont understand with their ears/brain in real time how and why acoustics parameters shape our sound perception .. This is why they ignore that the costlier part of any TOP system is the room acoustics... This is why they stay victims of gear marketting practices and reviewers ... This is why they are consumers not creative and passive believing audio is a "taste" for some pieces of gear ... This is why.... I will stop here ... 😊
|
@djcxxx i know that the room makes a huge difference. It’s easier to get it when the room is great and treated. But if you can’t you can still have great sound. |
ronboco, I really don't know how the podiums do it but all I can tell you is that the vibrations in the floor were gone and the vibrations in both side walls were gone and the sound stage was so much deeper wider more articulate and they give you a money back guarantee, if you don't think they improve the sound you can send them back and get all your money back, to this date no one has ever sent a pair back yet. |
Your equipment does its best to reproduce your sources and that was all it was designed to do. unless your room is a sphere, lower frequencies are going to reflect out of the corners of your room at different speeds and it can make your bass sound muddy. That is just one reason all rooms need some help. What I’m referring to here can be helped by bass traps. There are dozens of other issues you can have. Most people don’t have all of the, but everyone has some. All the best. |
Differnt strokes for differnt folks. As long as one's happy with what they've slapped together; it's right for them. For they rest of us: the bonified science of Acoustics has been with us, since man first began enjoying sound. and: https://www.britannica.com/science/acoustics/Early-experimentation
|
I should have mentioned, paying particular attention to the: Architectural acoustics portion, of that second reference url. Happy listening! |
Great info everyone. Im a pure novice but this is my take Bought some towers with active woofers (paradign founders 120h)They sounded great in the store. Got them home and was disappointed in the bass. They are in a multi purpose room with alot of hard surfaces. I added a thick area rug and some panels from GIK and holy sh....what a difference. Huge improvement! Went to axpona and after hearing all the remarkable systems I'm still pretty damn proud of mine. Room treatments are huge. I need to post an updated picture of my system as it has changed a lot. |
r o n b o c o, As good as the ISO acoustic Gaia are the Townshend podiums are on a whole different level better if you go on the forum here you'll see that people that have tried both have said that, they said that the Gaia's were very good but the podiums were on a whole different level better and if you put your speakers on these you'll notice how much better they'll sound than the Gaia, the Gaia don't isolate down to three Hertz like the podiums do that's why there's no vibration in the floor or the sidewalls I hope you'll try them you'll never go back to the Gaia. |
@ronboco - shouldn't be that surprising - I'd assume I'm not the only one here who does not live in a big house with a number of rooms, one of which can be purely an audio room. Some people live in apartments or smaller houses and do not have the luxury of all these extra rooms. |
Some of us live in the real world, with unappreciated nagging wives etc...I know of no women who is into any of this audiophile jazz...the real world means no dedicated listening room, probably the majority here. If you do have one , then consider yourself blessed. In a real home setting, your gear is typically stuffed in your living room where ever you can fit it. Room treatments are sorely lacking as that needs wife approval status, ain’t happening. Room Is neither too reflective or absorbing, not scientifically determined. It is based on what is in it, ie hard and soft furnishings, soft pillows, wall to wall carpet, tapestry, curtains, drywall and drywall/studded cement walls, large sectional couch, record shelves, cd shelves, low ceiling, listening space maybe 16x14, open on right side to rest of room, doorway to right to another adjacent room, etc etc....not perfect, but sounds ok to me. I sit only 7 feet away from speakers, of which are point source tannoy toed in at ears. There Is space behind the listening spot, the speakers are a tad more Than 1 foot from front wall (all i can do) and spaced equidistant to my listening spot. Speakers are situated on the longer wall. That’s my reality. Most speaker manufacturers do not anticipate you placing their speakers in an anechohic chamber. A lot of people using room treatments have no clue as to where to even place them, rendering them useless or even detrimental. Unless of course you hire some acoustical experts.i think I'll live in my real world for now. |
We cannot change or hide the basic truth about audio because it is impossible for most to realize it completely... 😊 And then only speaking of gear price tags upgrades as the solution for all people (because they dont have a dedicated room ) Or could we not as all marketing reviewers does to sell ? 😁
|
Many people -- not everyone -- have a room for a couch and TV. They just don't use it for audio. They could. They don't. So, there's that. A lot of people using room treatments could figure out where to place them if they tried, just a tiny bit. Seriously, improving sound does not require an elaborate listening room or a Ph.D. in acoustics. It's a hobby which requires a little knowledge and effort. Like fishing. Like golf. Give me a break -- it's not that hard. If one doesn't want to try, then that's their call. But it's not the fault of the hobby. |
One could at minimum engage in some DSP magik with a furnishing shuffle, a 'to taste' rug, and pleasing fabric hangings that mask some absorption materials... Viola'! A 'freshened' space with a new 'audio-positive' stance... The SigOther(s?,,,,*L*) will love it....or at least, pause to listen before it all gets moved back..... ...and I've been watching too many 'DIY home makeover/reno' shows.... ...so I'm going to go lie down now.... ,,,,avoiding what happens beyond 1:35 (....love the "High & the Mighty" whistling....) |
I concur with Hilde45 completely :
|
Im sure you are correct that the podiums are better than the iso acoustic footers. They do get outstanding reviews from most everyone that uses them. My 2 channel system is in the basement on concrete so I think the benefit would be negligible. I may try them someday just to see how they sound though. Regards Ron |
As many are tired of hearing, I am a resolved fan of speaker’s having level controls. Speakers leave the factory like a person put on a ship in blinders, no idea where they are going, certainly not going to perform as tested in a foam lined space. I wouldn’t spend a nickle on room treatments until after I adjusted the speakers in THIS space. test cd, sound pressure meter on tripod, seated ear height, listening position, 1. test cd with many separate frequency bands, individually selectable, and repeatable, not just sweeps or pink noise. amazing bytes, $25. (several at historic low prices) 2. sound pressure meter (needs bottom tripod hole)sound pressure meter ADJUST HOW? 3. I have two L-Pads, simple adjust mid to woofer and tweeter to mid, makes significant difference. Another space, re-do it there. 4. modern, no level controls: I just bought this DBX clone Equalizer in anticipation of results of my upcoming hearing test. Age 75, they will find something! Amazon, returnable, easy to try, hear how silent it is. Dual Band 31 1/3 octave frequency adjusters Zero noise, bypass, ’0’ detents, 3u height sliders have more precision. ................................................ bypass for listening with friends and my presumed hearing aids in engaged for me, no hearing aids, inverse of what they measure. Based on my friends experience, simple 3 tone control adjustment from his phone, eq should be a more specific curve ................................... another use: find better/best positioning and measure results of various toe-in angles as well as slanted back to aim tweeter to seated ear height, and alter initial room reflections
|
I can't really determine if you're making this blanket statement with sincerity or there's a level of trolling. If it's the former, I can't really take your opinion seriously if you think room acoustics have zero effect on the sound quality of a "good" hi-fi setup or that the same system can overcome bad room acoustics. I would suggest you do the following experiment before you stand firm upon the soapbox of certainty. Take your system and set it up in the various rooms of your living situation. I suspect that the system won't be able to overcome the acoustical drawbacks of each room (bedroom, bathroom, living room, closet, garage) and be able to sound the same in each space. DSP software can only get you so far when it comes to room correction and dealing with reverb, signal delay, and non-ideal room dimensions. If anything, the more expensive a system setup is, the more important acoustically treating the listening room and room correction becomes to take full advantage of what the system can reveal. If you're simply listening to music streaming on a portable Bluetooth speaker then yes, the room doesn't matter when it comes to the low sound quality bar you have set for yourself.
|
Having just experienced this first hand: you need to treat your room. To be more accurate, you need to know how to determine AND hear HOW your room is coloring altering or outright changing sound, sound stage, frequencies, etc. This should be a testing process that people go thru when setting up their components and their speakers in their listening area. |
ronboco, actually you're wrong on that one there is a video from the owner of the company showing that when you stamp on concrete you get just as much vibration coming through the floor just at a different frequency then from wood so you would benefit just as much, I was shocked when he stamped on the floor and the little seismographs that were on the speakers started jumping up and down like crazy with the needle I didn't think concrete would transmit anything so I think you should give them a try like I said if you don't like them you can send them back and they give you your money back no one has ever sent a pair back yet. |
@zuesman So true about concrete. I remember seeing Tangerine Dream in concert, in 1986-7, at a small venue in Chicago. It was standing room only, on concrete floors. I remember the bass reverberating in my feet, from the concrete then feeling it in my body. It was one of the loudest concerts I have been to. |
My belief is that you should be able to discern the quality system regardless of acoustical treatments. The problem is it's very difficult to play around with things given the massive weight of all the equipment. Once you get everything in place it's very difficult for you to swap in and out different options and you're pretty much stuck with what you've got. It's not rocket science, if you have an echo room get a rug, buy some furniture and maybe stick an absorption panel on one of the walls and corners. Unfortunately most people are hard-pressed to put acoustical crap on their ceilings. Getting rid of reverbs is important and size of the room is important. If you've got a very large room you're gonna need a lot of power to fill it with sound and of course speakers can handle it. Again it's not rocket science. And if you need special gear to test the environment so you can feel more confident that's a problem, you should be able to discern it all by yourself. |
One useful experiment I think audiophiles should do is to record themselves talking in a living room or kitchen or dining room. Then listen on headphones. What you will hear in the headphones is all the room resonances your brain is actively removing while listening. So, taking this out of audiophile land, why treat a meeting room? Well, because your brain actually works less on acoustic filtering and you'll feel less tired. Same for classrooms, and auditoriums. |
I definitely want to try them someday but I think how he is doing the testing should be considered. How many people stomp around on the floor while they are listening ? You can make anything vibrate if you give it a big enough shock. What does the needle do when there isn’t any sudden shocks ? I would like to see what the floor does when there is music playing. Put that needle on the floor. Again this applies to a concrete floor. And exactly how much vibration does it take to audibly change the sound ? |
@jperry Look at this as an opportunity to educate people and don't assume everyone is a longtime seasoned audiophile. If the person is just trolling and has a history of that in these forums that's a different story! |
When the bass goes into the floor it comes back and comes into the speakers vibrating the speakers and distorting the sound so the needle would be jumping all over the place from the return bass coming from the floor, that's what I tried to explain to you when I put my speakers on the podiums all that bass vibration that was in the floor and the side walls was gone so what happened the sound stage got wider deeper more airy spacious and three-dimensional than it already was and the base got tighter deeper and more articulate, also the vibration doesn't go back into the stand and your equipment that's another reason everything sounds better because the equipment is performing at a much higher level. |
When the bass goes into the floor it comes back and comes into the speakers vibrating the speakers and distorting the sound so the needle would be jumping all over the place from the return bass coming from the floor, that's what I tried to explain to you when I put my speakers on the podiums all that bass vibration that was in the floor and the side walls was gone so what happened the sound stage got wider deeper more airy spacious and three-dimensional than it already was and the base got tighter deeper and more articulate, also the vibration doesn't go back into the stand and your equipment that's another reason everything sounds better because the equipment is performing at a much higher level. |
ronboco, The change isn't perceived when multiple people are sitting in the room and they hear the same thing it's definitely not perceived It's very apparent and the speaker is vibrating not from the woofers moving back and forth but from the vibrations coming through the floor back into the speaker again you really should watch Max Townshend explain all this stuff in the videos he's posted,Google Townshend podiums and you'll be able to o watch them. |
I agree 100%. That is how I did for my room (few 1st reflection points treated with Aurelex). The room should be bit live than dead sound. In below videos, good treatment won’t get rid of the sound coloration. And my system sounds cleanest. Check out many live-recordings in YT (Chantal Beautiful Life). Alex/WTA Original music my system In Youtube "Chantal Beautiful Life" for more live recordings. Other |