If you have a nice system why do you really need room treatments?

@emergingsoul 

We are simply after better sonics vs just the gear.  It's always been this way.  

maholl50

"I’m curious about this.

I think my system sounds pretty good but am wondering with room treatment would it sound better. Without spending a bunch of money how does one evaluate this?"

I was a room treatment denier. There I said it. I was also a cable denier. However I have now recognized that being a denier is not the way to hi fi happiness.

After some encouragement from friends in the hobby I added some sound treatments in my room, and they made a significant improvement. Total cost was about $800 from GIK. My system is posted so you can see the ceiling mounted panels. The panels on the sides are still to be mounted on the walls. 

Some people seem to just like seeing their names in print. It's one nonsensical post after another.

Something is really off with OP comments. He has started 225 posts, and has had 897 replies, in the past 3 1/2 years. Somehow conveying details of his superior system and the room it is in is somehow problematic? Hmmmm…. 

further, only a month ago he made this comment on a different post:

“Would you spend $250,000 for equipment in a room that just may not work out because of the way it's designed??  That room is gonna be an acoustical challenge it may never work out”. 

According to his logic, couldn’t you simply throw money into a system and magically make these “acoustic challenges “ disappear “?

Oh yes. Put your stereo at any price into an untreated gym and play it really loud. If you enjoy it that way, more power to you.

Absolutely--I am sure it would be much more satisfying to  sit in the gym you had treated to the hilt and listen to no system at all.

"nice" is not the same as "all it can be"

If you have a dedicated room, it need not look ugly.
I find great auditory and visual pleasure in my space. As I leave the reflective spaces in the rest of my house and enter my room, it is an "Ahhh" moment.

@timkeough1964 sums it up well.

Something is really off with OP comments. He has started 225 posts, and has had 897 replies, in the past 3 1/2 years. Somehow conveying details of his superior system and the room it is in is somehow problematic? Hmmmm…. 

It is not insensitive or unfairly treating someone with a disability to expect the same conduct as that of anyone else on this forum.  The OP has been asked repeatedly to describe his system.  A reasonable request, yet no response.  There is too much history of this OP starting a thread with a particular premise, then arguing both sides either in the same thread or another different thread.  

Too much evidence of no meaningful contribution by the OP, only stirring the pot until everyone finally realizes there is nothing new of value being offered.  OP contributions are pretty much, "Yeah, but . . ., Yeah, but . . . , Yeah, but . . .".

Sounds like a conversation with my wife.
Ow. She just hit me.

The best system in the world can not fix bad acoustics. If the room is bad, chances are no matter what you put in it, will not sound good, or better said, not live up to its potential.

A great sounding room is a huge head start. Good sounding rooms are more than just good sounding for the stereo system. They’re pleasant rooms to be in, to talk in, to sing or play an instrument in. That’s the good news. A properly treated room just sounds nice all around, for all uses.

If you have a room that’s edgy sounding to talk in, you can hear your foot steps cavernously echoing off the walls and ceiling, how much better can you possibly expect the stereo to sound? This kind of sound can occur in well furnished rooms that have high ceilings because there can be a lot of bare wall space above the furnishing zone.

The bass is one area that might go unnoticed in daily activity because you are not necessarily making bass sounds that appear in music. I think that’s why bass treatments and equalization can still be necessary for a stereo system in an otherwise very nice sounding room that’s simply been treated with furnishings.

Another issue is symmetry and stereo imaging. The 2 speaker arrangement is a fragile thing in terms of imaging. Some strategically placed treatments on top of the standard furnishings can go a long ways to improve imaging. An imaging treatment can be as  simple as an angled flat surface. I've got one of those in my office right now because there's a wall close to my right and not to my left. a 2' x 2' angled flat wooden panel centers the imaging for me.

Oh yes. Put your stereo at any price into an untreated gym and play it really loud. If you enjoy it that way, more power to you.

I can attest to the fact that it is not fun to listen to a stereo in an untreated gym. I've been working on mine for a couple  of months now &  it's getting to the point where I'm happy. Just a few more tweaks.

That’s a great looking room and system.  Consider a large wool rug in front of your system.  Wool reportedly has the best acoustic properties over synthetic materials and you can adjust, position it to taste.  (Aurally and aesthetically).

Yeah I've got an area rug that I plan to put there and see if it has any effect. Aesthetically I don't need it but if it improves the SQ I'll move it in and out as the room function changes.

Sorry, but that is an incredibly ignorant view of how sound works.

A room isn't some benign bystander. Just because it doesn't have bare walls and no furniture it doesn't mean it has no impact. The dimensions of the room itself can ruin even the best music equipment by creating nulls and standing waves.

Is the OP trolling us? Or does he earnestly know that little about sound and acoustics. Either way, I'm dumber for having read that post.

 The problem is that homes are built with the worst possible acoustics. Walls and ceiling/floor all parallel to each other causing standing waves and their harmonics - all bad. That is the cause, breaking up those resonances is the only solution.

As this is allegedly a settled topic I will wade in only briefly:

- audio truism #1: the room is half your system.

- when my wife and I renovated our 1865 4.5 story brick townhouse based on a Calvert Vaux #5 design from his Villas and Cottages, I turned the 390 sq ft .5 story gable-ceilinged (no right angles) attic into my dedicated listening room. I did not cover the 5”-13” of rock wool insulation in the walls and ceilings with sheet rock. I instead covered it with fire resistant burlap. So: no acoustic panels: the entire ceiling and wall is an acoustic panel. Moroccan rugs cover the floor. The room is semi-anechoic: people immediately hear the difference in the sound quality of the room as they climb the stairs and enter the room.

See

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

My room has catheral ceiling with a balcony. My system sound great to me.If having acoustically treated room would make my system sound like ,listening with headphones. That's interesting to me .I haven't used headphones in about 50 years.Using them would have killed my hearing.As we get older pur hearing disintegrates. I grew up in NYC with loud traffic,loud subways,seating up close to the stage and getting my ears blown out.Listing to my stereo loud.If i did use headphones for those 50 years now,I would certainly be deaf and not having the pleasure of listening to my music.If you use headphones while listening to music,Beware.

I'm not the smartest chip on the block and tend to be very slow at learning things but this thread has really been enlightening.  Fortunately I have a really nice wool rug and that's very helpful if I could only put it on the ceiling.  Maybe I need one of these diffusers although I may have to get a lot of them to be something meaningful since one or two probably don't do much.  All I read about acoustical measurements involved dedicated rooms that don't have furniture and that's not very helpful I like to see rooms that have lots of furniture stuff going on and then hear about decisions made to do some sound panels

There are so many really smart people contributing on this website. I was able to create this lovely comment through dictation and only touching the screen a couple times. You learn to speak more clearly and consider more carefully what you're saying when you dictate because if you screw up it's a bitch to edit

I’ve been in audio for 60 years, and haven’t corrected a room yet. 

@tonywinga 

+1on beautiful and wool rug.

I lived more than 50 years without correcting any room me too ... 😊

I’ve been in audio for 60 years, and haven’t corrected a room yet.

But unlike you i discovered and learned by experiments why and how i was wrong .😁

Most of the times because most room need it unbeknownst to the lazy owner or unbeknownst to those who anyway are unable to do it because it is a living room and they are married,

It is  most of the times the result of acoustics basic science ignorance coupled often to gear price fetichism upgrading obsession ... 😁

Sorry... I learned it the hard way ... 😊

@emergingsoul ,

Why don't you post your system pics and show how it is done? Maybe we all can learn something from you!

@milpai 

I like your room, lots of interesting stuff.  We have something in common, I also have a salamander rack just like yours, except mines on casters.

Also I have a salamander rack that's 25 years old and it's wide enough for two components and deep enough to handle an amplifier without sticking out in the back. It's three levels and built like a tank.  Bought it originally for a tube TV for the top.  Unfortunately they don't make it anymore which really sucks.  But it's an awesome awesome rack.  New ones are OK.  

Do you need an album from the Carpenters in your collection. Nothing wrong with Karen Carpenter.  Glad to see you have plenty of Eric Clapton hope you have Van Morrison somewhere.

@emergingsoul  "As far as me getting by with all my audio equipment I certainly don’t do it myself."

Sounds like you have someone who could set up a virtual system page for you

Listening Space Absolutely Symmetrical? Doubtful for most I bet.

Just to clarify, AFTER measuring with test tones and Sound Pressure Mic, and AFTER trying tone controls, or dual channel 31 band 1/3 octave equalizer, if problems still exist: then I would consider room treatments.

Like others have mentioned, I have never felt I needed room treatments, current space: somewhat symmetrical, speakers slanted back and toe-in adjusted for tweeter dispersion to seated ear height. (wheels for alternate positions and alternate toe-in

Planning for success can make a big difference. I re-worked my office especially for Imaging when working, everything centered on the monitor. Had to weed/discard/move a bunch of files downstairs to achieve it, very glad I did.

Luckily my restored AR-2ax speakers have level controls because left side is adjacent to a wall, right side not. To live without balance controls is something I would never even consider.

Prior Wharfedale Speakers, surprisingly old AR-2ax sounded better.

@emergingsoul , Thank You for the complements. But that did not help, because seeing makes a difference and helps understand better, at least for me. And you did not mention anything about your room size, treatments, etc.

I do have Carpenters and Van Morrison albums. A couple of years ago, Spotify surprised me at the end of the year, by letting me know that I listened to 58 different genres of music. And all that time I thought I was focused on only 10-12 at the max.

@milpai

Big fan of Karen Carpenter, especially a live concert from 1974 performed in Japan. Remarkably entertaining and sound quality is pretty darn good. Video is called carpenters Live at budokan 1974 one hour and seven minutes, has some pre-concert footage too which is interesting. She was doing like 150 performances a year and overworked very sad situation

Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room, a 20 x 20 thick wool rug and an assortment of furniture. Not much more I can do with the room other than throw some panels on the ceiling which is 8 feet high, room size of 20 x 18. My system includes A McIntosh MC 901, Conrad Johnsen gat2 preamplifier, a lumin x one streamer dac, BMW speaker from 800 series and transparent speaker cables and interconnects. network switch from english eight, a nad av processor and a five channel mcIntosh solid state amplifier for centre and rear speakers.

Thanks for the details @emergingsoul . I was under the impression that you did not have any panels and had set up your system in such a way that it sounds amazing, as-is. I was trying to understand the context of your post.

I think however good the equipment is, the room physics will always play into the equation. Even with golden ration room, there have to be some nulls. So a room without acoustical treatment would be wonderful, if you can adjust to the fact that you can have less than ideal sound.

BTW, you do have a nice sized room and some very good equipment.

You have a 20x20 rug in an 20x18 room?🤔

Ops Opening thread post:

"I think people go nuts with all this absorption acoustical room treatment stuff and it looks kind of awful. ..... But to have a system that works really well without any of the acoustical panel distractions is a wonderful thing."

Response to milpai:

"Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room,"

Anyone surprised?

@facten - No!

Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room, a 20 x 20 thick wool rug and an assortment of furniture.

??????????????????

@immatthewj 

Is there a question? You probably do know most people just buy absorption panels and corner base traps and just stick them in their room.  Because everybody else does it.  They already have lots of furniture already in the room and that does enormous improvements to transmission of sound. some chairs and a sofa and a bookcase is extremely helpful to sound. The bookcase serves as a diffuser.

Most people don't need all this acoustical stuff in their room.

When you are sitting in a “modern design” restaurant with bare concrete walls, no baffles or absorption panels and cant hear anyone at the table because if all the noise, is this your ears issue or… 

There is a very good and not too complicated book on room acoustic treatments - “The Master Handbook of Acoustics” by Everest. It explains everything.

when i added acoustic treatment elements, i measured everything with microphone and PC software.

Using dirac, I did acoustical measurements and the original curve versus DSP were very similar.  It got a bit smoother. The original subwoofer curve looked normal.

These measurements were done in a room that had virtually no acoustical treatments other than corner bass traps it was a normal living room with furniture.

I wish I could attached the curve pictures but this forum don't allow photos to be attached I guess.

Would love to know if other people test their rooms before and after doing acoustical panels and how the curve changes.  Lots of the acoustical treatments are voodoo science with results that may not do very much most of the time and actually served to dampen the room sound quality

Very few residential rooms have any positive "room sound quality". The improvements with room treatment has as much to do with reducing "room sound" reverberations that distort the sound coming out of the speakers. This is really more important than modest deviations in frequency response, and will improve the sound quality of any room.

Like pulling teeth to get a description of the OP's system and room.  Shocking, he has room treatment, although not sure if the room information provided is complete.  At some point measurements are taken, with bass traps in a normal living room.  It is not clear what was done to the room to cause a second set of measurements to be a little smoother.  

If room treatment is excessive, according to the OP, but based on measurements - What is the problem???  No doubt overdone room treatment exists as does no room treatment.  Personal choice!

The OP again demonstrates circular discussion, dissing room treatment, withhold system and room information, finally reveals personal room treatment along with implication of expertise regarding room treatment.  Can anything from this OP be believed?

Acoustics has nothing to do with "vaudoo science"

You are misguided completely...

But if you think that some panels on a wall solve all acoustics problem you are right ... They do not... But that does not means that acoustics is a superstition created by audiophiles.. Read a book ... 😊

Lots of the acoustical treatments are voodoo science with results that may not do very much most of the time and actually served to dampen the room sound quality

@mahgister Totally agree with you here.

@texbychoice

I did post some details within this thread about my system. You don’t have any details on your system and I’m not really interested.

I have a bass trap in the corner otherwise minimally treated room .

I’m a big fan of getting rid of reverbs so one absorption panel is on the far wall but so hard to determine what it really does in the scheme of everything else in the room. Speakers are pulled forward quite a bit and I do know this really helps.

All I’m saying is that lots of people just throw around a few acoustical panels in their rooms and because it’s a furnished room for most people I would guess most people are hard pressed to discern a difference. For those who have dedicated listening rooms that’s a whole Nother animal since furniture is minimal. If I had a decent looking diffuser panel I’ll probably put it on the damn wall. But I’ve never seen anything I really like looking at because most of them are pretty ugly and you need a lot of them.

@emergingsoul

"I have a bass trap in the corner otherwise minimally treated room .

I’m a big fan of getting rid of reverbs so one absorption panel is on the far wall"

A week ago you mentioned plural of both

"Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room"

"’i’m a big fan of getting rid of reverbs so one absorption panel is on the far wall but so hard to determine what it really does in the scheme of everything else in the room"

On the surface it would seem that you should be able to hear the differences in the room as furnished with and without the panel(s)/traps{s)  Is there something that prevents that? Also, would you not be able to take measurements with your dirac with and without to gauge the impacts?

Why is everybody so dependent upon what dirac says? Adding an additional absorption panel in a 20 x 18 room that’s furnished is extremely hard to discern. Maybe Superman hearing would do it.

Maybe on the dirac curve they’ll be a slight change but in all fairness I think people go a bit neurotic when it comes to sound treating their rooms especially when they are furnished.

@emergingsoul

"Why is everybody so dependent upon what dirac says?"

Well, you stated this in a prior post hence the question I raised

"Using dirac, I did acoustical measurements and the original curve versus DSP were very similar. It got a bit smoother. ....Would love to know if other people test their rooms before and after doing acoustical panels and how the curve changes."

Care to explain, or simply deflect as ususal?

"Adding an additional absorption panel in a 20 x 18 room that’s furnished is extremely hard to discern. Maybe Superman hearing would do it."

Seriously?

"in all fairness I think people go a bit neurotic when it comes to sound treating their rooms especially when they are furnished."

But supposedly you have "Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room" Or , is it this version "I have a bass trap in the corner otherwise minimally treated room .I’m a big fan of getting rid of reverbs so one absorption panel is on the far wall"

This entire thread is a mess. OP doesn’t have treatment but does have it.  Why are people dependent on Dirac, by the way I use it too.  It’s all over the place.

I hardly feel that corner bass traps and very modest absorption panels in a furnished room is a serious effort to acoustically treat the room.

If the room was more open, and lots of rooms aren't, it would be helpful to put all kinds of panels in a room otherwise it would be an echo chamber. The best thing I have in the room is a very thick wool rug and the couch.  And other clutter that provides good diffuser relief although I wish I had a couple bookcases but I hate bookcases in a room. Everybody has bookcases and most people don't even read the books.

The point of the entire thread was to better understand whether there's a benefit in doing room treatments given a furnished room which already inherently does a lot of this.  And for those who still feel inclined to put acoustical treatments in a furnished room I'm not sure it would really be helpful and actually maybe harmful. Openess of a room is a wonderful thing as long as you don't screw it up with all kinds of acoustical stuff on the wall. 

The point of the entire thread was to better understand whether there's a benefit in doing room treatments given a furnished room which already inherently does a lot of this. 

@emergingsoul  Did you investigate any of the sources of technical information offered?  If so, your question posed should have been answered long ago.  I see no indication you have anything but opinion to offer that is based on your room as a single example.  I see no indication you are open to better understand.

Have you listened in rooms you consider excessively treated?  Do you have actual measurements to present of untreated, treated, or your room before and after?

And for those who still feel inclined to put acoustical treatments in a furnished room I'm not sure it would really be helpful and actually maybe harmful.

Proof???

I hardly feel that corner bass traps and very modest absorption panels in a furnished room is a serious effort to acoustically treat the room.

It may not be but it’s still treatment as well as your rug.  You treat the issues you have in the room and not every room requires the same level of treatment.  A lot of your responses as well as the thread title make it sound like you think if the system is good then it shouldn’t need treatment in any room, only to find out you have treated your room to manage issues you have.  You can over treat/dampen a room for sure but I’m not sure most folks on this site are doing that.  They are doing just enough to sort out issues.  I guess it’s just between your thread title and opening comment that you make no mention of any treatment then it turns out you have some and have done some measuring (I think both of those things are good to do).  That’s what made it seem like you’re all over the place.