If you have a nice system why do you really need room treatments?

Oh, and you both hate bookshelves but wish you had them.  I’m not judging you just making some observations that make the point of the thread hard to follow.  By they way, how do you like your 901s?

Somehow I think if you have a good system in a furnished room somehow you have to validate yourself as a true audio connoisseur by putting stylish acoustical panels throughout the room. Somehow not having them makes a room seem unfinished even though it may sound perfectly fine. I think people are hooked on getting acoustical panels in their furnished rooms and may just live with them after they get them because removing them is something they probably just wouldn’t do. A diffuser panel of 3 x 5 in a furnished room room hardly does much of anything, but it can look really really cool. I would have one but I’ve never found anything that I’ve really want to put up on the wall.

I think everyone’s been conditioned to assume they should pursue acoustical panels even though many can never really discern a difference in a room that’s furnished. . Walking into a room with a nice audio system without acoustical panels and someone will say oh you need acoustical treatment.

Disagree.  If the reason is the pursuit of the best sound the system can create in that space then it has nothing to do with being conditioned to think acoustic treatment equals true audiophile.  What is the definition of sounds fine by the way?  There are plenty of videos online you can watch and hear the massive difference in the before and after.  I don’t want to treat my room using furniture, I want to use acoustic treatment designed specifically to manage issues I have in my room.  I have no idea what piece of furniture I need to add in order to manage a +3db rise at 50hz.  However, I can do some research and find acoustic treatment that can help flatten that out.

The OP has an opinion, is not forthcoming with relevant information, and shows no interest in "better understanding" as claimed.

No reason to continue this circular firing squad.

I hardly think of a room filled with furniture is considered a treated room. Certainly it offers acoustical benefits.

The title of the thread does not suggest the system would be placed inside an empty room. It merely suggests that good systems, or really good systems, may do an excellent job regardless of acoustical panels, or‘treatments’ placed about the room.

Reaching to a textbook to help figure out whether a situation sounds good or not may be helpful to some but I trust my ears to tell me what’s going on. I just feel people go nutty with acoustical treatments sometimes and somehow people are inclined to put a lot of acoustical panels all over the place. And gradually the room changes it may not always be for the better and people may not really recognize this. I’m tempted to remove the corner bass traps to see how things might change but that’s a pain to do, so for now I’m hopeful they benefit things. My curve for the subs seems perfect, I guess you could say this is a helpful confirmation but I really didn’t need to see it based on what I was hearing. I’ve learned to trust what I can hear. I still would like to find a nice diffuser panel but having trouble finding one I like, and I'm not sure how much it will really do.

@emergingsoul

"Adding an additional absorption panel in a 20 x 18 room that’s furnished is extremely hard to discern. Maybe Superman hearing would do it."

"Reaching to a textbook to help figure out whether a situation sounds good or not may be helpful to some but I trust my ears to tell me what’s going on.....My curve for the subs seems perfect, I guess you could say this is a helpful confirmation but I really didn’t need to see it based on what I was hearing. I’ve learned to trust what I can hear."

One minute you state you need Superman hearing to determine the impacts the next you’ve learned to trust what you hear. You constantly contradict yourself ,and frankly dig yourself deeper in the lack of credibility hole.

This thread was utter nonsense from the start and has only gotten worse and more pointless so why keep adding to it?  Please just let it die. 

So I guess treating a room with acoustical panels Will provide a benefit. This is news. So many great enthusiastic people have led me to rethink my position. I thank everyone for helping me overcome my fear of adopting a more liberal view about acoustical treatments.

Now if only someone could help me deal with Leaf blower noise throughout the day from neighbours who are too lazy to deal with lawn issues with a rake. And just why are we using leaf blowers in the middle of the summer when there’s no leaves? Because blades of grass somehow have taken over. Proliferating use of leaf blower noise is a serious problem. Ever noticed bird populations have declined quite a bit and a lot of it has to do with leaf blower noise throughout a community. Further if you have allergies they are probably a lot worse because of all the leaf blowers kicking up so many particles. I’d mention the environment because of the gas powered Leaf blower engines but people don’t care about the environment much anymore. They can't use mufflers because it would impact the flow of air and we wouldn't want that to happen.

I haver at least a decent system (see my profile and decide for yourself). My modest addition of some acoustical treatment in 2023, consisting of some absorption panels and some diffuser panels yielded a surprisingly pleasant and budget friendly improvement (the cost of the absorbers and diffusers was less than the cost of just one of the balanced interconnects I use between various components). 

YMMV

And the Academy Awards blathering and whining goes to

How does the OP go from a statement like this…

Somehow I think if you have a good system in a furnished room somehow you have to validate yourself as a true audio connoisseur by putting stylish acoustical panels throughout the room. Somehow not having them makes a room seem unfinished even though it may sound perfectly fine. I think people are hooked on getting acoustical panels in their furnished rooms and may just live with them after they get them because removing them is something they probably just wouldn’t do. A diffuser panel of 3 x 5 in a furnished room room hardly does much of anything, but it can look really really cool. I would have one but I’ve never found anything that I’ve really want to put up on the wall.  I think everyone’s been conditioned to assume they should pursue acoustical panels even though many can never really discern a difference in a room that’s furnished. . Walking into a room with a nice audio system without acoustical panels and someone will say oh you need acoustical treatment.

to a statement like this in 14 hours with only two cynical posts in between???
 

So I guess treating a room with acoustical panels Will provide a benefit. This is news. So many great enthusiastic people have led me to rethink my position. I thank everyone for helping me overcome my fear of adopting a more liberal view about acoustical treatments.
 

These extreme opposing viewpoints over such a short period of time are concerning and almost schizophrenic like.  I’m off this nutty merry go round, and participate further at your own risk.  Peace out.

I'm old school and will never care for the room treatment.  Will there be an improvement? I don't know  My ears are my ears, and if it sounds good I'm happy.  I have a Luxman 590AXII with Silverline Sonata II, I use the Emotiva HC1 monoblocks to switch up here and there to compare, I can say difference of $8,000 is barely notice.

Seriously you are complaining about leaf blowers? Then you attempt to add credence by discussing bird numbers. Perhaps you can get a grant. Please no more!

@audition__audio 

 do you not recognize that use of a leaf blower which can be easily heard within someone's home is terribly disruptive to listening.

Thankfully no one uses them at night. People have no idea how awful it is to listen to these things all the time and yet they use their leaf blowers to pristinely clear away grass blades from their driveways because they're too lazy to use a broom.

It's a huge problem that's driving away birds and increasing pollen count. 

My family talks about putting me away all the time. But I won't go. 

These extreme opposing viewpoints over such a short period of time are concerning and almost schizophrenic like.

+1!

Then do what I did and move to the country. Some state or city is banning gas powered blowers in favor of electric. They walked through the seas of homeless people getting this petition signed.

Op despite your operating under the misery loves company mantra it’s not welcomed

@facten 

+1

You know it. 

@emergingsoul You are the one with threads and posts whining about anything and everything with no loss for the melodramatic.

Run REW (Room EQ Wizard) or the equivalent and find out what your room really does.

You may be lucky and have a listening position that is accidentally perfect. My daughters bedroom is like that.

All it needed was some bass absorption on the floor (provided by two 2.5’X2.5’ 8" inch panels just placed on the ground about 3 inches from the wall behind her subs and speakers (some BW 701s and equivalent BW subs). She literally has a perfectly testing system for dispersion/standing waves/pressure -- the whole thing -- at her listening area with zero effort. It happens.

My actual listening room (a literal bomb shelter; not joking) was not so easy and had awful echos, dead areas, and all sorts of weird stuff that required a lot of both testing and treatment.

Seriously you are complaining about leaf blowers? Then you attempt to add credence by discussing bird numbers. Perhaps you can get a grant. Please no more!

I remember a member who went by @jumia  who was going off about leaf blowers for a while.  Actually, his posts resembled the posts @emergingsoul makes.    @emergingsoul  , were you @jumia in another life?

Plus two on the leaf blowers. Damn them to hell I say.

@immatthewj  More likely an AI programmed to be make illogical, whiney, rambling, irritating posts that dismiss facts and logic provided by those trying to be helpful.   

@immatthewj 

You are so funny. Isn't it clear I love attention as well as learning so much wisdom offered by so many talented people who participate on this forum.

Wow. I cannot believe this thread is still chugging along.

As for leaf blowers, what is there to like? Carbon pollution, noise pollution. Horrible inventions. What happened to good old rakes? 

Leaf blowers exist to make mundane tasks easier and to save time. They are a great invention for those that use them.

@audition__audio

During the fall they make sense otherwise a lot of people would probably be dying from heart attacks. However during the summer when there’s no leaves it makes more sense to use a broom to quickly disperse errant leaf blades.

I believe it’s terribly inconsiderate to be revving leaf blowers sometimes two or three of them at the same time and serenading your neighbours with disturbing noise. It may not bother the person using it but it certainly bothers the people who have to listen to it.

I find people generally pretty inconsiderate a lot of times. We’re only here for like 70 years while being gradually replaced by others so why not make it somewhat pleasurable for other people while here.

What’s really ridiculous about this repeated whine of yours is that you act like they are running blowers 24/7. It takes all of a few minutes for clean up once a week.. Surprised that you aren’t calling for everyone to get on their knees and hand clip the lawn versus using mowers. The horror of it all.

Emerging well I think you just need to deal. You simply do not have the right to complain about others using such devices. Further, you dont have the right to determine when, how and for how long such devices should be used. Dont let an irritant become an obsession.

@audition__audio

Well this is enlightening. My family can complain to me about playing my hi-fi too loud and maybe they have no right to do this. My neighbour plays a leaf blower too loud and it interferes with my phone calls inside my house I have no right to complain about that.

Further I have no right to complain about how wrong it is not to be able to complain about something.

The world according to those who use leaf blowers. Tom Hanks needs a new movie and I think this is a perfect fit.

@immatthewj 

You are so funny. Isn't it clear I love attention as well as learning so much wisdom offered by so many talented people who participate on this forum.

@emergingsoul  , I wasn't intending to be funny.  For quite some time I thought that your postings resembled @jumia  's posts, and then you did the leaf blower post, and the only other posts I read complaining about leaf blowers was from @jumia, so I was just asking if at one time you had gone by that screen name.  That's all.

@immatthewj 

When you're famous you have to use aliases. I'm not famous, I'm just another nobody.  I think we've all gotten used to leaf blowers and no one cares anymore.

I'm in a room right now and all the tested curves look fine and I've done it all with out acoustical stuff except for corner bass traps.

Funny thing is, I've had people over and they say how come you don't have any acoustical panels and then they look at me really strange when I say I don't really need them.  I think we've just gotten used to assuming you need acoustical panels all over the place so it looks like everybody else.  

Treatments consist of corner base traps extending up to the ceiling, a couple absorption panels throughout the room, a 20 x 20 thick wool rug and an assortment of furniture.

So I guess treating a room with acoustical panels Will provide a benefit. This is news. So many great enthusiastic people have led me to rethink my position. I thank everyone for helping me overcome my fear of adopting a more liberal view about acoustical treatments.

I'm in a room right now and all the tested curves look fine and I've done it all with out acoustical stuff except for corner bass traps.

Funny thing is, I've had people over and they say how come you don't have any acoustical panels and then they look at me really strange when I say I don't really need them.

That is rather confusing.

I am also confused.

1) the room largely determines how any system at any price will actually sound

2) those with a goal to get the best sound possible will care and others less so

3) some rooms may require little or no tweaks for acoustics and others may be a total disaster. I have measured and tweaked acoustics in 5 different rooms in my house and they cover the range from little or no tweaking needed to well short of a total disaster but some serious issues to address to make things sound their best.

4) trained ears may suffice in some cases but to get it right for sure it helps to measure what you have first before taking action

5) Everything in the room affects acoustics to some degree. Room modes in the bass region are the toughest issues to address completely but some combo of traps and DSP can be applied to make things better. Other specialized room acoustic solutions like panels, etc. might be used to address any issues that cannot be solved in a particular room otherwise. Start with primary reflection points on walls, floor and ceiling based on speaker and primary listening location, Dispersion pattern measurements for a particular speaker model can help determine how to best apply, if needed.

6) DSP including room correction features in your system are your best friend when it comes to tweaking any system as needed to correct for issues associated with room acoustics!!!!

7) These days vendors integrate DSP into hardware (example:miniDSP, Anthem, NAD, Arcam, others) and software (example: Roon).

8) Once that is done (addressing room acoustics) you might then take the next step and tweak the sound from there to personal preference. Or just forget about room acoustics and the complexities of addressing those properly and just DSP to personal preference away as needed, for example using graphic or parametric EQ capabilities in DSP like that available in Roon. Either way (done right) should land you in a better place regardless of how good or expensive your gear is otherwise.

@mapman

Outstanding comment above.

I have an AV processor and I use that for DSP that seemed helpful for all the various speakers.

For two channel listening I have roon and it’s tougher to use the AV processor to facilitate and measure the room and I guess I could insert mini DSP to do two channel listening measurements when I use my preamp but it’s very cumbersome.

Overall the original curve I got when I use the AV processor didn’t seem bad at all and then to use the DSP function within roon the concern is it would degrade the quality of sound. And then every single recording and music you listen to has different characteristics and there’s no way you’re gonna do a perfect DSP set up.

Just wish the user interface to test the room and provide curves for all those various tools was a hell of a lot easier to use

@emergingsoul

Thank you for the kind words.

TO measure rooms, take a look at Room EQ Wizard freeware you can run on a laptop. It’s fairly techy but worth the time to get a handle on. THere is lots of info on how to use it on teh internet. I’ve used it to measure then auto-create convolution filter files that can then be used in Roon DSP for room correction. There is a cookbook for how to do that out there on teh internet. ITs covered in Roon forums if you do a search there.

Here are some easy tricks to try with Roon DSP parametric EQ that I think are useful in many cases, especially for cases of older ears and listening at lower volumes.

1) roll off bass levels below the frequency that your speakers tend to normally roll off in your room. Your amp will thank you by lowering its load and allowing it to do a better job with the frequency your speakers actually cover well.

2) If you measure and detect bass modes, Provide a bump in the right direction to help level that out. This is not a substitute for room treatments to address bass issues but can help if targeted properly.

3) try a 3db (or more or less maybe) boost from 4-6khz centered at 5 khz. This adds a bit of edge to the sound that older ears in particular may appreciate, especially at lower volumes. Think making your lower efficiency speakers sound more like a quality pair of high efficiency horns. You will probably not have to turn the volume up as much as well for things to sound sharp and clear.

4) For older ears in particular, consider a treble boost starting at around 10khz or higher, depending on the particular ears used. A hearing test can help establish how well high frequencies are heard, but it is pretty much always the case that as our ears age our ability to hear up to 20khz as one may have done easily when young is no longer a reality.

5) If you are not listening on-axis, consider measuring the distance to each speaker from listening position (in centimeters) and set up Roon DSP speaker correction accordingly for a more coherent sound at your off-axis listening position. You might also decide to add a db boost or decrease to left or right speaker. This is DSPs way of providing a balance control like the analog kind that pretty much all hifi gear used to have.

6) If you are listening well off axis from tweeter direction, additional treble boost at higher frequencies may be desirable.

Roon DSP makes it very easy to apply each of these in separate filters that all work together and then tweak each as needed to fine tune the results. Make sure the DSP does not introduce clipping as indicated in Roon as the music plays. It’s a good idea to use headroom management in Roon DSP to protect against that. I find I tend to like having headroom mgmt active in most cases anyway, but that may be a personal preference thing. If Roon indicates clipping (red indicator) during playback with DSP enabled, individual filter overall volume levels can be lowered as well to avoid.