I don't know the answer, but the above AI response is probably faulty. It basically says high end or premium audio accounts for half of all audio equipment sales. I suspect their definition of audiophile, high end and premium would differ from that of most participants in this forum.
How large (or small) is the audiophile market?
Just curious, how big is the total market for audiophile hardware? There seem to be a lot of manufactures vying for a a small pool of potential buyers. I've read in places that as boomers age the market is shrinking. I don't know very many young people, but none that i do know are into it. Anyone have any idea what the total market size is?
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@jtucker very small.
Apple's dongle revenue in a year can be used to pay for every company not already owned by Bose, Samsung |
In the December issue of TAS they report their subscriber numbers (it’s required for print magazines). They printed 16,250 copies a month (average for previous 12 months). Total paid circulation was 14,188. There are also about 11,700 paid electronic copies I don’t have my Stereophiles handy. Their numbers are higher but shrinking too. I’m not saying there are 26,000 audiophiles but these numbers give some indication that there aren’t a huge number of us. |
Not too many people I know indulge themselves with fine audio gear. I don't have any co workers or friends that spend on HiFi. I'm pretty low key about my hobbies in general but it's not hard to see I've spent some money on this stuff. Well worth the enjoyment it get in return though without question. I had a marathon listening session last night in my main room. Haven't done that in a while. I needed to escape for a while |
A logical starting point would be 1% of the population which is 343 million(2025) in the United States and 40 million in Canada. I would include entry level products from Emotiva/JBL/Klipsch and Chi-Fi due to the fact these are still separate components. That computes to around 3.8 million potential HEA customers in North America. Given the current trend to "shame" true HEA, a vast majority of the bottom feeders will stay complacent with budget gear regardless of financial means. Possibly 25% of the 3.8 million buyers will consider upgrading which leads to around 950,000 North American potential buyers. Factor in aspirational buyers/tire kickers and the WAF and there could be around 750,000 actual HEA buyers in the North American market. |
My perception mirrors @oddiofyl . I have a single friend who actually spends money on high-end gear. I don't know anyone else who does. In high school I was the only person who had a component system. Same thing in college. Almost the same thing in dental school. I knew a couple of people who actually had a nice system. Decades later I know only one other person who cares about audio and has a high-end system. When I am asked about hobbies or interests all I get is a blank stare after I respond "Listening to music in a dedicated listening room". I do have a few friends who like coming over to hear my system, but they are unwilling to invest in good gear for themselves. Definitely a lonely hobby. It's only Rock n Roll, but I like it, like it, yes I do. |
Outdated audiophile brands have always been a clueless bunch ---> no idea how to tap into the vast numbers of the world’s unidentified ’audiophiles". For example, Sony has been selling its XM5 Bluetooth headphones like hot cakes. Any young person who bought it and said "Omg, I am hearing things in very familiar songs that i have never heard before" is a bonafide audiophile. Such a person will be able to identify tiers of improvements in sound quality, if exposed to gear and will buy it if within financial reach. A sizable majority of the younger hometheater-ing dudes are audiophiles. But, they seem to despise the word and will never say it....probably has a lot to do with the lousy personalities who’ve propped themselves up as the face of audiophilia. |
The only real audiophiles i knew are dead... They played with the gear pieces never were really concerned and never studied acoustics... I am the only real audiophile i knew now, i used a dedicated room, and i studied how to makes it holographic with basic gear because i could not enter the upgrades race. My budget lack was my luck but i did not knew at the times.... I succeeded but it takes me 2 years full time to understand how to do it at no cost...
Most people called audiophiles here buy gear pieces without end on a race to upgrade the sound... Gear matter for sure... But acoustics matter way more than the choice between relatively good basic pieces of gear...
Most dont want to know this simple truth, because they dont have a room dedicated only to audio, they dont have the time to study acoustics... And a dedicated acoustics room done by a pro cost more than a high end system anyway... What is an audiophile? It is a fool with money who buy gear pieces one after the other or a fool with no money ready to have fun in a dedicated room whose hobby is acoustics (me)... There is rare people with unlimited budget spending money on room and gear.... They dont buy quartz to ground their gear homemade.... They bought costlier product...
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@tomcy6 - true, but are there any print publications whose subscriber base is not shrinking? They are not much of a thing anymore. I remember when most of the people in my apartment building would get the daily paper delivered. Now I'm the only one. I've seen a number of print publications go down since the Pandemic, like the music magazine 'Q' (sister publication to Mojo, if that's even there anymore). You can bet there are many, many more who read these publications online. |
@larsman my point exactly. The market for any print magazine is rapidly shrinking, much less very fine focused and genre specific magazines. I’m surprised you’re still 12,000 or some odd subscribers at this stage. Me included of course. To address the op’s, as a teacher/professor for several decades I have known thousands of young people and so my first students are now hitting their forties. I can count maybe on two or three hands and number who’ve actively expressed interest in traditional audio file sound. In fact I was very happy to help two of my high school seniors get set up with decent vinyl playback rigs. One of them just wanted to get rid of her ancient receiver and get powered speakers so I helped her out by donating one of my unused phono stages, Darlington, which really changed the way she listened to music. The other guy I helped by installing one of my unused mm cartridges, a decent grado, which made him incredibly happy as he reported he was hearing the music like he never heard before. But most people under the age of 35 for the most part- I know I’m making a sweeping generalization here- are concerned more about the economics and Mobility factors then fidelity. Plus, just look at how many more entertainment options are available to people under 30 as compared to Gen X or boomers. It's not just a radio TV and cable, it's everything else and that everything else is much more Interactive and offers A Narrative of sorts. Some of the music my students report listening to most oddly enough is actually game soundtracks. |
As i sit here on my deck with a pair of Sony XM5 bluetooth headphones connected by lossless ldac to a Xperia flagship/whatever phone....it is easy to conclude that high fidelity has well reached the ’economics+mobility’ package. I could walk some young dude back into the music room downstairs and say, "hey, here’s the years of ocd level work performed and how much you need to spend for expanding the high fidelity experience that just happened inside your ear cavity... to a large room like this"....In response, he’s going to justifiably grab my phone+headphones and run away as fast as he could (Funny thing though...he seems to always have the cash for a 1500 dollar phone and a 2000 dollar pair of sneakers inspired by some influencer) On the same note, the sheer enormity of music catalog (spotify, amazon music, youtube music, etc) made accessible to the masses in recent times is like never before in human history. The number of music listeners with large playlists is exponentially higher than ever before. Hence, there’s no real excuse for the outdated snootyminds in audiophilia whining about their shrinking businesses... when they have no clue about market penetration..... P.S Here’s a very very 'audiophile' test track i use (composing by Adam skorupa)...that comes from a "game soundtrack". Game soundtracks are no longer the ping pong pac man crap sound...it’s something else entirely...
Adam Skorupa - Dwarven Stone Upon Dwarven Stone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz7NG7uVkHk
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The analysis is complicated by the Home Theater market. Many non audiophiles purchase expensive systems for their home because they can financially. They want loud movies, not listening sessions. Without doing any research I look only to my own family. My non audiophile brother spent a tone on money on a dedicated home theater. At least 20 grand was spent and that is non trivial. He was not ripped off, he had nice gear. Sales wise that would be viewed as an audiophile purchase, when in fact it was not. I have quite a nice system that would probably cost 30K to replace today, yet I quit the gear chasing merry go round a good while ago. Parsing out the data of true audiophiles, which I would categorize as individuals who have listening sessions and understand the market as well as their own preferences in gear, is quite difficult to accomplish. We are all guessing and using our own metrics trying to answer this question. There are many levels of financial capability to acquire increasing levels of gear as the top end has become insanely expensive. A young person starting out in adulthood in their early 20s typically does not have the means to acquire top end gear, yet the few that are audiophiles have the desire to build their system as best they can. Tracking that demographic is almost impossible. I would suggest that population of what I deem as audiophiles is rather small as much of the really expensive gear is most likely purchased by individuals who buy six figure cars and are neither car enthusiasts or audiophiles. I would like to be wrong as I love this hobby and great sound, but I believe we are just a very small niche that does not drive the market. |
I do not follow the mid tier equipment market but I do have an interest in the “high end” gear. The “tell” for me is whether the big money investors such as venture funds have moved into the market and are consolidating the small retailers. There is no evidence they are. The So Cal market consist of perhaps a dozen truly high end retailers who are small and located in less expensive retail space. |
I concur with your opinion.
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A real audiophile test soundtrack (no electronic spatial effects here only voices and instruments ): If you can differentiate after purchasing this album, between the singers and see when they walk around you and in your room and see their head turning when singing and if they comes near your right or left ears singing or speaking, your system/room is good... If not, dont upgrade your gear pieces, dac, amp or speakers, learn acoustics experriment and use it before upgrading... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CvjtOvZypmfmC4ygxSxOgm&index=46 It was my test album in my acoustic dedicated room. In non audiophile system/room the singers are in front of you on a plane or worst between speakers, not around you in 3-d in the room. |
I don't quite understand why the people here blaming AI generated information being faulty. All the 'AI' information provided by @cdc have proper sources. The only exception is for "Hi-Fi Audiophile Headphones" but here is the source for it "Impactful Marketing Research Co. on May 15, 2025." It’s even more amazing that people blaming put out their own unfounded judgments, seemingly believing their information is more reliable than market research. Where is your justification, people?
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@deep_333 you do realize that the only reason most young people have a large playlist is because they don't have to pay for it, they actually expect it to be free. |
@lanx0003 I don’t blame AI "personally". AI reads what’s out there and summarizes it, but can’t properly recognize groups and concepts. Are the sources useless? Well, I looked at them and they seem to be, for the most part. AI put out categories in a list such as Home High End Audio and Premium Audio as two distinct categories and it did the same with headphones. Panasonic (Japan) as premium audio. Only 3 of the 11 companies have any relationship with audiophile stuff. Totally misleading. I could go and on on what’s wrong with the AI answer. The audiophile market is defined by what audiophiles consider what it is. An obvious joke is Bose, it’s huge but it’s not audiophile, so let’s not add their revenue to the sum. Again, AI can read but it can’t judge. Yet. I should add that the businessresearchinsights seems to have been written by AI. It is, every single word - a useless word salad. I feel stupider after reading it. |
With appropriate source i can put any non sense out... A.I. is not a source of information we can trust blindly because it is "sourced"... We must think because between the wiki or A.I. definition of what "timbre" is for example and the real acoustics problems related to "timbre", there is an abyss... Now listen what Sabine Hossenfelder say about A.I. and science research and "sources". : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVkCfn6kSqE
It is quite evident the average dude will idolize A.I. as arbiter of truth and quote it for any discussion as definitive truth ...
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Yes, I concur, @gano. Don’t get me wrong—I see AI as a tool to help locate useful information, provided it’s deemed reliable. That’s all. I do recognize that there are many mistakes in AI-generated information. |
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I apologize but i did not target anyone and certainly not you...I was speaking in general...
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It is very cheap but as i can judge (i am no specialist at all) well designed but without on/off button which is not really an annoyance for me... The cleaning effect is immediately audible in my low cost system...It drive my speakers/dac 12 volt and my secondary headphone amp (5volt).. |
I cannot help you here because i only used my hearing not electronic equalization of the room to tune my room and many mechanical tuned resonators that work on large band frequencies for absorption and reflection... It was not esthetical and not perfect but it was spectacularly good but it takes me too much time and effort and i will not recommend it to everyone save those who want to learn acoustics by -playing with it but i learned so much doing it i will do it again... Anyway my speakers at the times did not go much under 50 Hertz.. I fixed my bass by the placement of the resonators and their dimensions and adjustment...
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Stats don't lie but none of my kids or thier friends want anything with with wires.they don't have the disposable income especially in past 4 years.first kid under orange man 1.9% interest on the house next kid 7% on older less square footage.kid now masters degree can't get one too much money and youngest just grad college miffed she can't find one pays rent .told her to ask her oldest brother what his mortgage is? Less than her rent. Mmm .were old and going 6 feet under and not being replaced.enjoy the music while you can. |
high quality audiophile components is a niche market. How many $100,000 speakers are sold? How many Wadex pieces are sold? Very few. If you looked at the article, their premium products included: List of Top Premium Audio Companies Panasonic (Japan) Source: https://www.businessresearchinsights.com/market-reports/premium-audio-market-110100 I could be wrong but I don’t think is would be going to Volkswagen, Bose, pioneer, or Acura for my audio system. If you looked at the article, they claimed high end was for music, movies and gaming. I’m not sure but I don’t think I would find a pair of $800k Wilson’s for a gaming system. This is a hobby, a niche hobby, that very few people participate in. I think there are more $100k Porsches in our club than there are $100k amps in a 5 million population city. |
You don’t believe Pioneer/TAD is audiophile enough, eh? Well...Forget TAD and their six figure speakers... i have some relatively higher end PA from regular ol’ Pioneer that can smoke the daylights out of most apparently "high end" rigs (sonically). In fact, that’s the only rig on wheels i’d be happy to bring to a audiophiliac phallus measurement contest like axpona....., just to confuse everyone.
There’s a guy nearby where i live with the full KEF Reference system for his multichannel gaming, music, etc whatever that sounded rather immaculate to my ears. Let’s see, that’s around 25k for the front left/right speakers alone. Again, some apparently lowly hometheater working stiff ended up with something that killed so many ’experienced’ audiophiles around here sonically. So, never say never, i suppose...they may work up to it. On the same note, no one’s all that interested in that godforsakenly ugly incoherent naked Chronosonic emperor. Feel free to hang on to it by yourself. At least, the Magico equivalent had some other merits.
Here’s some of your answer... https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pRdcXfldd-k
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KEF (U.K.) These are top end audio companies who can compete with anyone. BTW - to see where audio market is going head over to Head-fi. The fact that the RAAL 1995 Immanis ($10K headphones) are lusted after gear on Head-Fi tells me that cohort cares deeply about audio quality in an OCD way. When that younger cohort moves up in their careers and housing, I think they buy other audio gear. One big difference is that music (and audio reproduction) is no longer a central part of societies interest. This 70's audio joke would not register with today's younger generation (has me in stiches every time). |
Just for comparison - Rolex are reputed to make about a million watches a year and to hold 30 percent of the luxury watch market - so market size, about 3.5 million sales per year. I would hazard that there are a lot more luxury watch owners than audiophiles. I've posted here several times about the fact that the audiophile demographic is very imbalanced, gender-wise and shrinking. But the company demographic is ageing rapidly too so it my decline as the customer based does too. |
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This is my complete post and sentence which was truncated ...
Honest people when they quote someone put them in context and dont truncate the sentence to do their own bidding and insinuation... My complete sentence describe this hobby in general as relating to an alternative : we go blind in an upgrade expansive race or we think and try to understand acoustics...( we are all deep in this alternative me and all others audiophiles) My sentence was there to describe a central problem of this hobby not mocking anyone... Anybody in this hobby has played with the upgrades race... Even me... Then read a post COMPLETELY and read the intention of the poster correctly before insinuating something of your own making...
So why are you here truncating my sentence to turn it into a sarcasm against all people instead of describing a central dilemma in audio... I dont see how your post is a constructive post and not an attack or insinuation against me ? |
Of my university friends only a handful were/are into hifi. One is a designer at Bose, the rest are engineers or engineering PhD profs or research scientists. None are on the constant hunt for the next big set of gear. They made fairly substantial purchases and stuck with them until they failed and then researched the next purchased and stuck with that. None subscribe to forums or magazines. |
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i am perhaps an imbecile but you are bad faith... I answered to someone who truncated my post to suggest i came here to insult people... What are your part here between him and me ? You gave a good advice though... Why not ignoring my posts yourself as you advise others instead of insulting me without end with NO ARGUMENTS for many months now ?
«Indians dont need mirror but stupidity do» -- Groucho Marx
For the economist Cipolla who wrote a free book on this matter, a stupid person is precisely someone who attack someone else with not benefit for him and even at his own expanse for no useful reason.. I think deep33 correspond to this description ... Why attacking me with NO ARGUMENTS for almost a year now if you are not a stupid person ? Is it because i know how to tune a resonator as i did for 2 years in my room ? You wrote to me it is impossible to do...Since then you rage reading my posts... Incredible stupidity and free sarcasms for no reason save ignorance... Please go with your own advice ignore my posts...
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@mahgister you accomplish the impossible. You are successfully uniting people who are otherwise in fierce disagreement about pretty much everything in life. But we all/mostly all agree that you are ruining these conversations by constantly berating people. And I am leaving out the nonsense part. |
I posted opinions motivated by arguments and articles.. I never insult people... But i answer to people like the last two one, one truncated my post to imply i am here to insult... The other insulted me for months with no arguments... And now you enter this game saying that i am hated by all which is false... I just posted here today about music in the jazz thread and nobody insulted me there ...I posted ARGUMENTS....go and read them... It seems not all people as you just did judge me harshly as you do... I dont berate people i gave ARGUMENT...With reference and articles or videos... For example : What is "timbre" ? What is a resonator ? What is musical time ? (right now in the jazz thread i discuss about this with intelligent non insulting people unlike the two above here... Why did you feel the right to post this about me ? A hunch? Where did i insulted you ? If i did not insulted you why have you the right to say that everybody is against my posts ? My defect is this : i answer to those who attack me... I plead guilty... But i am polite with polite people... And i gave arguments not sarcasms as deep33 ...Go and read all the posts insults he gave me since 6 months... Come back after and if you think his insults are motivated demonstrate to me why he has any reason to insult me without end, and i will quit audiogon.. If not shut up... You did not add anything positive as a rational argument... I love people and i hate nobody even those who insult me with no reason... But i answer them as i just answer your unmotivated disrespectful post who fall from the sky because stupidity act as a magnet and gangstalking someone please to some..
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By gawd, we're cranky.... I'm just a 'phile of sorts that's so used to doing the improbable with next to nothing that I'm at the point of doing the impossible with nothing...just to make the attempt, to occupy my remaining time, with the little I can amass to try to do so. As was quote in a sort of context; "If there be self-made hells, we all must live in them." At least, it keeps me warm and occupied.....*S* |
I think the audiophile community has shrunk drastically. In my metro area we have one audio shop. Its out of a guys house and he sells very boutique audio gear. The population in this region is well over a million people. On a personal note...I've had some Audience cabling for sale now for a couple of months. Its priced very fairly, and I can't even get an offer. Its getting harder and harder to sell used gear.
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Gee, you'd think the moderators would have noticed such behavior. How did they miss it? Perhaps you should alert them. Or, you could just leave @mahgister alone. He's been a welcome presence here for a long time. |
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