You only live once. Go for the gusto!
Feel free to talk me off the ledge
Just picked up my new Rogue RP-1 from a dealer. That coupled with my Rogue Atlas, then to my Klipsch Heresy IV's with an SVS PB2000 pro has me over the moon right now. But funny thing happened at the dealer.. I couldn't help myself, I listened to some other speakers. I'm an idiot, a glutton, a fool. As you can imagine I'm now about a third the way down the rabbit hole.
At the dealer I was enchanted by a pair of Golden ear BRX monitors, they were so sweet, airy and open. Can't stop thinking about them.
Now I'm looking at:
Paradigm founder 80F
Tyler Time Keepers
The Golden Ear BRX
Vandersteen's among others..
Am I nuts? should I join a support group (other than the other one I'm already in) ?
Feedback always appreciated
73 responses Add your response
@audioguy85 Thats what he was saying. I did get a set and sent them back. ATC11 is much much better.
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I auditioned the BRX further and they truly are a great stand mount, worth every penny and then some! I actually ended up with they Tyler Timekeepers and I’m glad I did. I was very intrigued by the small shop and it’s super helpful and gregarious owner Tyler. A true gentleman and stand up guy. I liked the story, the product in line, read everything I could, and sort of took a leap. First time I’ve ever bought speakers based on other peoples opinions no regrets at all. |
@doyle3433 Are you ready to report back, nearly three months now. |
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I’m torn between the Goldenear BRX and the more expensive, by about $500, Buchardt S400 MKII...both utilize passive radiators. My last passive radiator speaker was way back in the 80’s, a pair of Realistic (Radio Shack) Optimus 10’s, those speakers sounded fantastic. They had an 8 inch woofer and a 10 inch passive radiator. Here is an old print ad for them on ebay....these speakers had extraordinary bass that you could feel.... |
@jerryg123 "other than the guys at Audio Science Review" What do they like? Did they even listen to the BRX? I guess both John Atkinson and Herb Reichert are deaf or hard of hearing, because they both liked the BRX very much. |
I have lived with Heresys. As you mentioned, that tweeter will drill a hole in your brain. You have a lot of good suggestions. But the bottom line is how the speaker performs in your room with your system. It is especially vital that your amp mates well. And really has a SQ that sound real to you. I have been very impressed with the Fyne line. Those designers have taken the blueprint of Tannoy and taken it to a new level. And if you like horns, the Voti are a great choice and not as sharp as the Heresy. |
I've heard the B&W 800 and 801 Diamonds with dealer-matched expensive electronics plenty, and whether we call it 'fatigue' or not, I do not like those diamond tweeters, great hardware or not. My ears tell me to turn it down or off, not good. I still think different speakers' tweeters sound different, that's all, some better to me, some not. Try the BRXs and give us a good report! grin. |
@doyle3433 Will your dealer let you take the demo units home for a quick listen to avoid having to open a sealed pair? Back when I had dealers near me I would hang out on Saturday afternoon and take something from his consignment stock, returned or demo home and bring back Tuesday as he was closed Sunday and Monday. It gave me a nice 2 or 3 days with the gear with my system. I do miss those days. |
My friend, you are not nuts you have been made aware of a different sound quality of speakers. The depth, height and technology of a speaker matters greatly. My suggestion for you would be to explore the Heritage models further. Something relative about the sound quality of the Klipsch made you stop and take notice, which was most likely the clarity of the highs and midrange drivers. However, the speakers you listed as replacements have lower hertz frequencies than the Klipsch you purchased, not to mention your klipsch project considerably lower from the ground. The Forte IV or the Cornwall would have you wondering for certain. At this point, however, I cannot imagine you ever being satisfied with your listing space now that you have the knowledge and ear for more. So go for it and be satisfied. All the best
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Wise words @bigtwin |
@tim_p ....someone always does, eventually... ;)
It's not a rabbit hole, which have limits and an end....it's a black hole, which puts you into Punky's Dilemma...kinda...
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Congratulations, You may find that you like both speakers for different reasons, as the two are both great speakers but each of a different character. Maybe over time you could build separate systems around each - complementing and bringing out the best of both. I still have an older pair of PSB Stratus Gold i, that I set up in my AV room and still love for playing my old 80s rock and big band. They do so many things so well, I doubt that I’ll ever get rid of them. Most often I’m in the mood for something more subtle and laid back (light jazz, light-rock, Celtic, old country, old crooners, etc) and spend evening hours in my main audio room, relaxing to the Maggies and tubes. Enjoy the music and the journey.....Jim
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All my audio gear is squished into a 13’ x 13’ home office. Yet still I manage to fit 10 lbs of crap in a 5 pound bag. It’s a 2.1 system and has been through at least 6 previous pairs of 2-ways (that go on the desktop for nearfield listening). 3-4 of those were powered. Then I scored a reburbed, great-condition vintage pair of KEF 103.2s (8" woofer + silk dome tweeter). Like the other speakers that really work here, this is a sealed/acoustic suspension design. I’m in love with this sound, which got even better when I put a DDC in line before the DAC. But sitting over against the side wall is my "other fantasy speakers," the ATC SCM12 Pro (also sealed, but w/6" woofer). They’re so amazing that I can’t bring myself to sell them. So I’ll swap them in and out of the desktop system from time to time to drive myself crazy. Net/net: I’m a fan of loudspeaker polygamy. It’s a victimless crime, unless you consider my wallet a victim... |
There is always something better. There are bests for an individual list of requirements, including budget. When the requirements change, the best options change. I think the source is most important as the sound quality can only be as good as what comes off the record onto the stylus. From there the best you can do it not lose any potential quality. Remember to enjoy the music first and foremost and not forget that is the reason for getting as high SQ as you want to listen to it. |
Well, I would like to listen to the BRX, Time Keepers, Amphions among others. I built a system around a lower powered integrated amp in place of my larger more expensive integrated with good results and am looking at possibly replacing the speakers to something smaller, say 12 to 15 inches tall but preferably smaller than the upper limits. I could give up low bass as long as 50 to 200 Hz+ was covered well enough for a fuller, warm sound as well. Could use a sub to fill in 30 to 50 which I have done in the past never really needing to turn the sub up much, so I am not looking for an overbearing low bass for a small apartment. There’s a great sale on the Elac Carina right now and I think I decided against it because a reviewer pegged them at 82.5 dB anechoic while both my speakers are higher than 88 dB given the 1 watt/2.83 v measurement. So, that would bring me back to higher power again, maybe? I think the little amp could drive them ok but another review site that drove them with both a Hegel h120 and the Keces E40 stated the E40 drove them less well which is understandable given the difference in drive/wattage. But, at what listening level I do not know. I think a few dBs higher before breakup can influence someone’s opinion even if that sound level is rarely ever listened to. Plus, not sure if they lose their presentation at lower sound levels. Plus, it’s an odd speaker which needs its’ own stand. The AMT tweeter does add a live flavor to voices but in my experience, that may be it as I once had some Martin Logan 15s in my system. Nice voice but otherwise unremarkable and I did think their choice of mid driver is what held them back. I do think, at the higher price that the Elac Carina would be more than a couple of upgrades from that though. It’s the matter of needing enough power and I am trying to use low power, albeit the Keces E40 is a tremendous little performer and I like it over the Rega Brio. But there are limitations. It is smooth though, like my Hegel. Yes, the Hegel is better but at low to moderate sound levels, it is sufficient. So, for me a more expensive amp may be overkill. thinking of selling it. I mean, I have an amp and dac, even if I add a streamer all would weigh in under 25 lbs which I like as I get older and continue to downsize stuff. A choice I made. If I were to buy a larger amp, I really don’t want over 30#s anymore, so no to alot of high end bigger, bulky products. It’s all moderate or low level listening from here on in. I also like sweet, airy and open with good resolution. I tried the discounted Silver 100s and liked their low to low mids alot but the upper mids and highs were a bit much in I felt they threw everything at you, but someone could prefer that. The small amp drove them well though and would have kept them if I didn’t compare them to my 807Ws. The bottom end doesn’t have the added bloom but the lows are there and tight, but the mids/highs are really nice, nice enough for movies and really nice for music. Mids were different between the two in detail presented but I think the Focal were a bit more relaxed while the Silvers gave it to you all at once? So maybe I liked the quickness of displaying dynamic range of the Focals better. If you want a high energy speaker with great detail and vg resolution, the Silver 100s fit the bill. I’d like to get essentially what the 807Ws give me in a smaller package which has been a difficult task. The only budget speaker to give me say give 75% of what they do are my Triangle Zetas (much better for music than Borea, IMO) which will be used nearfield/desktop. Nice budget speakers but thinner sounding, especially when compared to the Silver 100s. It was like listening to a ghost image of what they could do with less detail and resolution (Focals were a bit better in resolution, IMO). The Silver 100s are really nice, easy to drive but I thought they were more slanted to home theater IMO, other wise for the price I paid ($675 delivered), I’d have kept them. They just lacked the sweet and airy but were definitely very open and could go beyond the speakers themselves. Maybe I should have kept them...oh well. The issue with alot of stand mount speakers is they either need alot of power, don’t perform well at low listening levels or still remain too bulky with what I want to achieve, except perhaps the BRXs (87.5dB(B)/2.83V/m but dip below 4 ohms) and a few others. TimeKeepers at that price may need higher power too but I do not really know other than I expect them to outperform the BRXs, by how much I can’t say or whether I could realize each speakers potential on my desired setup, so synergy is important. Sure, I could use Hegel and Focal for mains and Triangle and Keces for desktop. The nice thing about the Triangles as they sound nice with either class D or AB. In this hobby, were always near or on the edge, which is why it just not frustrating, but also fun. Let’s call it a fruNstrating hobby.
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Hi OP, something to consider is the sensitivity of new speakers you may like. Your Klipsch are 99dB sensitive which is unusually high. If the new speakers of interest are only 87dB which is typical, then to get the same SPL you would need to double the power into them 4 times! And you don't have that kind of power. The above fact may not be mentioned by the seller of the speakers you are smitten by. Perhaps something to consider too is that a waveguide/horn with compression driver plays differently to a dome tweeter. By comparison a CD on a waveguide/horn produces, by comparison, unlimited dynamics and greatly reduced distortion. I'm sure you've been to a live concert and noticed that the PA speakers are not equipped with dome tweeters, and for a reason. From what I can make out your CDs use titanium diaphragms which are known to be a little brash. Try and swap them out for aluminium or beryllium and while you're at it consider replacing the series caps in the midrange and tweeter circuits. There is lots of improvement to be gained there. The 99dB sensitivity is set by the woofer and to achieve that something is sacrificed and that is the bottom octave, therefore a few subs will completely change the overall performance. If this suggestion is not an immediate 'no no' then read up on the multi-sub approach. Also room treatment, essential for any room makes a huge difference. Ignore those who state: "just hang a curtain and add a rug" That's not treatment, that's decoration. Good luck and remember Pink Floyd never played through dome tweeters!
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"Probably what, 75% to 85% of recordings are not "audiophile". So that leaves us small percentage of stuff that truly sounds out this world on our systems."
This is the great (mostly unspoken) problem with high performance audio. It also explains the often rather strange musical choices of some of our veteran reviewers. As our equipment gets below a sufficiently low threshold of distortion, the realisation that the music sounds progressively worse becomes an impossible one to ignore.
"If you’re unmarried, find a wife quickly. She will undoubtedly end your developing addiction in short order once she hears about what this stuff costs."
I have an understanding and tolerant wife, but yes there are real world limits. At least for most of us. In any case, nowadays she's not the problem It's actually getting harder and harder to justify buying yet more equipment to myself. So anything I buy in future needs to be substantially better or more desirable than what I already have.
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OP,
Just a thought… “fatiguing” doesn’t usually come from speakers, although it can exacerbate it. It usually comes from the electronics in the form of high frequency hash and distortion. It takes a lot of experience to really put your finger on it… but fatigue is the sign. Your Rogue equipment is not known for it… so, I would look at your source. If it is supplying the high frequency problem then it’s going to come out the speakers. If your room is not heavily sonically dampened then that will make it worst. Can you borrow a real high quality streamer or CD Player . Try some dampening material in the walls behind… carpet in front of speakers. I would verify this is not you problem before proceeding. |
About speakers being most important: it depends. For years I upgraded electronics while keeping the same speakers. When I finally got some loose change, upgraded the speakers by an order of magnitude and at last discovered how just good my amp and preamp had really been all along. The old electronics, however, couldn't handle post-CD digital. So when these were traded for contemporary equipment, the tables were turned and the speakers again became the weak link -- I was right back where I had started, albeit on a higher plane. |
Ah the rabbit hole, most of us are in it at some point. |
lol! Thank you everyone, I can always count on each of you to give me opinions and suggestions that make me seriously think and explore. I have resolved to go another direction than the Klipsch. As pretty as they are, and as dynamic as they are, I feel some fatigue while listening. I am going to do my legwork, take my time. ProAc, Volti, Golden Ear, Paradigm Founder, and Vandersteen are on my list, as are the Tyler Time Keepers. What I think did it for me was I swapped in my old TDL compact monitors. While not nearly as dynamic, and loud as the Heresy's, they were kinder and sweeter to my ears. Perhaps it's my age, but peeling back my earlobes isn't as fun as it was. |
I got lucky and found a set of speakers at a garage sale that blew away anything I had previously heard. They are Dahlquist M909 towers from the 80s. I had no idea old speakers could sound that good. The previous owner's wife wanted them out of the house because they were too big, but they look great in my room. It cured my upgraditis. I am sure there are better speakers out there, but I am also sure that they cost more than I can afford. |
Your Heresys and the BRX both have upper range drivers with broader lateral and minimal vertical directionality. Try a speaker with more evenly dispersed mid and treble energy if you want to experience a really different sonic presentation. The Paradigms should do that, as do Revels, Totems, and many others. The real exemplar of this idea are the Ohm models. Your Rogue electronics should serve you well with any of these, up to a point. |
There are some good tips posted above, as well as some fun thoughts. Have to say you're killing me telling me how nice those BRXs are. I'm dying to listen but don't need them... ugh. I suspect them to be an incredible bargain for sound $. Those and your 2000Pro would be great in the right room. I sincerely believe speakers are the single most important, critical, and expensive component of any well-assembled audio reproduction system. Finding the type of speaker is first (box, planar, horn, combos, etc.). Narrowing down the sound is next and in the box speaker category alone there are plenty of house sounds, yin to yang. Some folks desired sound my change over time (I moved from older ML electrostatics to Dynaudio to Raidho) but the sooner it settles for you, the sooner you can move up to a great speaker in it's class. Research and listen, repeat, and repeat. As someone posted, you'll be far happier with your purchase in the end if you listen to a lot first. Do your best and good luck.
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Agree w/ 1piece! I recently bought the Volti Audio Rivals -outstanding! They sound so alive, clear, detailed dynamic without any harshness. Between them & my new Innuos Zenith streamer, I have had many late nights!!! I recommend anyone in the market for new speakers between $6 - $20K should try to listen to the Volti Razz or Rivals. Great sound for the $! |
For me, the speakers are the heart of the system. They are what produces the actual sound that your ears hear. They need to be right and a fair amount of time should be spent choosing. When I got my first pair of speakers I drove all over the NY tri-state area listening to speakers. It took me months to decide. I ultimately ended up with a pair of Vandersteen 2CE. This was obviously many years ago. I've since upgraded in the Vandersteen line and couldn't be happier but setting up vandys take a fair bit of work and time. If your room is flexible and you have the ability to move speakers a lot before deciding on a placement then they could be an option for you but if your room is such that the speakers need to be in a certain place then they're probably night the right choice. I will also say that they do pair well with Rogue electronics as that's what I have always had and continue to have. Not sure where you live but you can make driving around and listening to speakers a hobby for a while. Definitely do that before you make what will be a defining component of your HiFi. The rabbit hole goes much deeper... |
So many funny responses! Hilarious! There are many good speakers out now at all price levels & designs w/ their own devotees. Nothing does realistic dynamics like good horn speakers & for myself, this is a must or music simply doesn’t sound live at all. It’s all what you enjoy & that may very well have changed & likely to do so again sometime. It has for me. BTW, I just bought a Rancillio Silvia Pro X espresso machine made in Italy & a good grinder so now coffee really can’t asset as good or Breyer than any coffe shop….. |
