Cable elevators

@barts @clearthinker 

I am also so lucky to have a REF6 I bought used and upgraded to a REF6SE.  Paired with a REF150SE.  Would love a REF160S, but now thinking of waiting a generation.  Maybe they will make a KT170 amp?

What's Up With Risers?

Posts like this are incredible. Barrels of snake oil. You may as well run a coat hanger... it wouldn't sound any different than what you're doing now. This is all psychological.

You know "psychological" can be a two way street.

It is possible in certain instances where electric lines are installed directly under the audio system cables where they can cause interference.  When working as a recording engineer I always had a RF problem in a certain church and attributed it to a close by radio station tower.  I mentioned it to the custodian of the space and he said that a main power line ran directly under where I typically placed my microphone cables.  I moved them about a foot away ---- and voila !!  No more problems !   If your listening room is on a slab it most likely wouldn't be the case.  

@squared80

A lot of folks start out skeptical about differences in sound quality. Then they upgrade or swap something that should not matter and the difference is simply stunning. The uninformed “that can’t make a difference” goes out the window.

I noticed your system is not shown under your ID, and this is not your first post basically stating you know more than the rest of us and we are all delusional. It would be helpful to understand the systems you have owned, your experience level with high end sound quality and currently have and what experience you have with cable lifters.

I do not believe "cable-off-carpet" makes any sonic change unless power lines are under the carpet.

 

I tried many times, and found nothing improved.

My speaker = Vienna Mahler (period).

                 WELL: the Cargo Cult's building another runway.

                                         Time for a rewind:

Cargo cult science is a pseudoscientific method of research that favors evidence that confirms an assumed hypothesis. In contrast with the scientific method, there is no vigorous effort to disprove or delimit the hypothesis.[1] The term cargo cult science was first used by physicist Richard Feynman during his 1974 commencement address at the California Institute of Technology.[1]

Cargo cults are religious practices that have appeared in many traditional tribal societies in the wake of interaction with technologically advanced cultures.

     Do a bit a research and you'll learn those primitives were limited in their understanding, of what they saw with their eyes, based on their prior experience, education and BIASES.

                                                A rewind:

                 It isn't that the Denyin'tologists are ignorant.

               It's they're knowing* so much, that's WRONG.

                       *heart of the Dunning-Kruger Effect

                                              OR, two:

     The Church of the Naysayer Doctrine (like every other faith-based, religious cult) has as many dopes as it does Popes.   

     Bring up anything resembling SCIENCE/PHYSICS, dated later than the 1800’s and they become apoplectic, not having the formal education to comprehend the concepts, or- possible ramifications.    THAT would be hilarious, were it not so pathetic!        

           Gimme That Old Time Religion, Gimme That Old Time Religion, etc.

        At the very first mention of something as simple as Wave Function (a BASIC tenet of Quantum Mechanics), the Cargo Cult will label you a KOOK.

        But remember: they can only view/understand you, based on their limited experience, education and BIASES.

         They have overlooked the fact that, if not for the hypotheses/theories and experimentation, regarding Quantum Mechanics: a plethora of modern conveniences, medical devices and the gear they so love, would not exist.

          Had scientists, chemists and inventors shared the doctrines of the Cargo Cult (Denyin'tologists), there would be no semiconductors, computer chips, LASERs, or Magnetic Resonance Imaging devices (MRIs).

                                         Solid State amps?

                                     OOPS (back to tubes)!

                                        Your Smart Phone?

                                        FA'GET ABOUT IT!

                                         Your car's GPS?

                                                NOPE!

    Then too: some may be willfully ignorant and just enjoy being contentious.

                        Others: obtuse, uneducated*, misinformed?

      *Typically, from what's been exhibited here: H.S. STEM, if that, would be a safe inference.

      Either way: the result, when the Cult begins it's rhetoric is a classic demo of the Dunning- Kruger Effect.

                                          But, I digress: 

       Bring up those pesky details, regarding the likes of QED, Dielectric Absorption, Poynting's theorem and possible application/effects, relative to frequency, that our musical signals are carried via photon or wave, outside the conductor and you're a KOOK?

         Again: the Cargo Cult can only understand anyone with an actual background, experience and education in Physics/QED, based on their beliefs, education, experience and biases

                                      Remember this?.

     One anecdote  that some may find interesting: their walks in the woods and how his father would encourage him to look beyond the fact that something in nature exists, but into why and how.

     It saddened him, that while attending college, during a visit home and one of their walks: his dad asked what he was learning in college.

     At that moment, he realized: if he tried to explain what he was learning, there was no way his dad could understand.                               

                            It wasn't an insult or condescension.

                                                Just reality.

                                    Oh well: let 'em go build a runway!

                                                    references:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applications_of_quantum_mechanics#:~:text=Examples%20include%20lasers%2C%20electron%20microscopes,systems%2C%20computer%20and%20telecommunication%20devices.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/2015/08/13/what-has-quantum-mechanics-ever-done-for-us/?sh=37c459944046

https://uwaterloo.ca/institute-for-quantum-computing/quantum-101/quantum-applications-today

          But: I'm a kook, because I believe in the SCIENCE, from which all that sprang?

     https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/five-practical-uses-spooky-quantum-mechanics-180953494/

           Einstein got that last one wrong (Quantum Entanglement), BUT- I still wish he'd been alive, when the Hubble Telescope proved, what he considered his, "greatest blunder" (his inability to bring symmetry to his field equation, without lambda.

  https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200507/history.cfm#:~:text=Einstein's%20original%20equations%20had%20been,how%20the%20universe%20will%20end.                                            How about that?

Another example of a hypothesis/theory, with no way to EXPERIMENT/MEASURE, what you're sure must be there, in some detectable way, or another.

                                               Just for fun:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-times-quantum-physics-blew-our-minds-in-2022/

                                            Happy listening!

My Wireworld Platinum Eclipse solid silver speaker cables have been up on Shunyata risers and a set of Audioquest risers.  I could hear no difference with either set or the floor from the Wilson speakers.  Dave Salz of Wireworld says risers make no difference. At least with his cables.  They all look a bit silly as well.

I remember the Mapleshade demo rooms featuring a giant spider web of cables suspended from the ceiling, with their exceedingly thin cables being clad in thin clear styrene or the like. The sound was always unrelentingly hard and harsh. I never liked it.

I'll believe in cable risers (actually, I won't) when somebody explains what's happening to the poor tortured cables inside EVERY speaker...the crossover gets it also...the dreaded vibration. Be afraid, be very afraid...

             When a Deny'intologist can't savvy the science, they'll (typically) either:

                               pertinaciously persist in their puzzlement,

                              answer with asseveration from yet another,

                                                            or:

                                     dab at derailment with deflection.

                                                    No surprises!

                                    

 

 

Hey @rodman99999 

Forget about the complexities of science, how about simply justifying your text in a normal manner (i.e. to the left), as opposed to centering it, which makes your posts uncomfortable and difficult to read?

@ghdprentice 

+100

clearly risers work for some and not others...as it is a free tweak, try and enjoy and don't sweat the details of why...

It seems that so-called "snake oil" products fall into 3 categories to those who solidly reject the premise:

1) the entire concept seems ridiculous or absurd

2) or, the price of said product/catagory defies the proposed cost vs performance benefit(s)

3) both 1 and 2

It’s interesting (to me anyway) that certain products/catagories have stood the test of time and found themselves installed in legitimate "audiophile" systems for many decades. Not to mention that manufacturers whose stellar reputations (in many cases) have been put on the line based on an unapologetic endorsement of said product/catagory. It’s hard to imagine responsible manufacturers putting their core business at risk introducing a product that may represent a proportionally small income/revenue stream that risks tarnishing that image. Yet, there are still those who challenge the general legitmacy of those products/catagories.

I acknowledge the component of "bias" into the equation. a) If we want it to make a difference it WILL make a difference, and b) if we paid more money for it, it must sound better based on the mere factor that it’s cost is <enter number here> times as much as the base/economical model. I will also acknowledge the component of "negative bias", where the reverse can happen. In my own experience, some of the most astounding, most musicially rewarding products/catagories have occurred when the concept pegged the needle on my "BS meter" and I had to be dragged kicking and screaming into auditioning them. Then, it happened. My knowledge base expanded. And,, my system(s) delivered more of what I originally paid for. I was hearing more/better music from them.

So, it comes down to "the sound". Did we conduct our due diligence?

I’m convinced that there are those who have a high confidence level that they are hearing (good) "things" in their systems when new things are installed. I’m also convinced that those products/catagories may make no percievable difference to others auditioning the same item in another system.

There may be scenarios where BOTH can be true:

- different systems (all things that carry a signal or make sound)

- different rooms (including room acoustics)

- different power grids (where you live can make a difference)

- bias (positive or negative)

- different ears (and brains)

I have no comment on those who reject reasonable premises and choose not to listen. I define "reasonable" as some folks with very nice systems and pretty sensitive antennas themselves think there’s something of value happening here. It’s your life. Your time. And the clock is ticking.

Maybe a survey of the group might be helpful:

- have you listened to cable risers?

- what was your impression?

- if you own them, are you on the first generation. Or, have you "upgraded" to more expensive items?

- what is your investment in cable risers?

- if you haven’t tried them, what is holding you back?

- other?

Might see some interesting results?

Multiple risers are not necessary. If you have enough space vertically, one tall riser will lift the entire cable off the floor.

 

Maybe a survey of the group might be helpful:

- have you listened to cable risers?  Yes

- what was your impression?  waste of time and resources. 

- if you own them, are you on the first generation. Or, have you "upgraded" to more expensive items?    On my current  2 system (tubed and SS) and last system I am done chasing the marketing BS. 

- what is your investment in cable risers?  $250.00

- if you haven’t tried them, what is holding you back?   Tried and they did nothing!

As Danny pointed out in the video that bolong provided a link to and most didn't bother to watch, it's not costly in the least. He made his with some Tinker Toys his kids had. Two other friends who thought him crazy bought some after he demonstrated it to them. He said it took all of 5-10 seconds for them to hear the difference and they were on their cell phones ordering Tinker Toys from Amazon.

He also points out that not every cable is going to benefit from it and not every system is resolving enough to appreciate the differences. Why is everyone getting so emotional about something so inconsequential and instead, creating false narratives as if there's only costly and ineffective ways to doing it?

All the best,
Nonoise

                                          ^^^  YEP!  ^^^   

       The adherents of the Naysayer Church will never accept that there exists a multitude of variables, when an accurate simulacrum of performers and their performance in a particular venue, is the desire/goal.

        If their result differs from that of others, the aspects that they can't discern CERTAINLY MUST BE the product of the others' imagination.

        Of this they are certain: it CAN'T be THEIR system, room, or ears!

                                       Perish the thought!

                                      

                                   

- have you listened to cable risers?  Yes

- what was your impression?  waste of time and resources. 

             Tried and they did nothing!

                          Did I mention: VARIABLES?

                                     From page 1:

 

rodman99999

5,856 posts

07-26-2023 at 06:58am 

@invalid -

There is a measurable difference of lower capacitance when cable risers are used

@mc1969 -

I am on a concrete engineered slab, no carpet under my cables, engineered hardwood

     Makes sense, given that all of our cables exhibit the properties of an RLC circuit, the 'C' being capacitance.

     Capacitance changes, according to the dielectric, it's Dielectric Constant, and the amount of dielectric used.

     The Dielectric Constant of air = 1.    Wood can vary from just over 1 to 4, depending on grain direction and (greatly) on moisture content.

     I seriously doubt that engineered hardwood contains/retains any moisture, hence: no more change than lifting a cable into the air.

     Most carpeting consists of materials with horrible Constants.

     When your cable's lying on a material with a high Dielectric Constant; that's being added to that of the cable's insulation, changing the 'C' in the RLC, over whatever length.

     https://www.electrical4u.com/rlc-circuit/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/nursing-and-health-professions/dielectric-constant#:~:text=The%20dielectric%20constant%20ranges%20from,with%20moisture%20content%20and%20frequency.

  

They say peer pressure has a greater effect (pull) on kids than that of their parents. As we age most grow out of succumbing to peer pressure as we mature while others never seem to rid themselves of it. It's like battered wives syndrome. 

I don't find tribalism comforting and reassuring. My favorite Groucho Marx saying is "I refuse to join a club that would have me as a member."

I never understood the need or desire to be the one dictating the needs of others. Lots of insecurity lies in that. Those of the least or damaged faith yell the loudest.

"The beatings will continue until moral improves" is a satyric way of speaking the truth and hobbyists are not immune from it. We see those types all the time here. Some even come from other sites to ply their ways. Be wary of them.

All the best,
Nonoise

A few years back I ran across a hundred plus glass/ceramic high voltage insulators being tossed out, most with a cradle in them that reminded me of 50' - 60's kitchen stoneware.  I realized they can work as cable risers and looked smart but on my wood/stone floors, they didn't make a difference.  I had other people try them and they either weren't sure or didn't notice a change but one neighbor liked the stoneware brown cream color appearance of them.  I can't seem to attach a photo but on eBay, see them going for forty bucks a piece.  https://www.ebay.com/itm 311597925883 

@vitussl101 , I have about 40 of them on an old clothesline holder out back. $40 a piece? *whistles*

And to think, I was going to cut down the clothesline holder and throw it out, lol.

FWIW
I've got G E Triton Refs. Along with the speaker cables, I have a LFE cable, and power cable connected.  With all those cables, I thought some separation might be a good thing.  I had some homemade risers made out of 2x4 cut offs for a while.  I thought about making something nice looking out of oak or walnut, but for the time and effort involved, I decided to go with the AQ Fog Lifters that I got on sale.  It's a really simple design.  I like the way they look.  They make my homemade speaker cables look better, too   I've never taken the time to see if if they really improve the sound, but hey, maybe :)

I actually made some out of a crepe myrtle tree that my son wanted cut down. I took the trunk and cut about 1" cookies. Sanded them, let them dry and used them to get my Canare cables off the carpet. Did they make a difference? I have no idea, but my family and friends are impressed with my handiness, creativity and frugality.

 

The natural notches in the woof hold the cables. BTW I drive Harbeth 30.1 speakers with a Luxman L-505 Uxii integrated amp. Not much compared to what many of you run, but they are a good match for my room, my ears, my music and my budget.

 

 

 

I tried using some unused, inexpensive 3 layer sound insulating blocks from Ama-Bay in my primary system and could hear a small difference in clarity as well. My floor is thin carpet over plywood in an apartment.

Who’d have thought?

Okay, I’ve been enjoying the discussion, and listening. For the last week I have been listening to the system with the “building block risers” in my system with my Wireworld Equinox 8 speaker cables. 
 

Today, I removed the risers—takes 30 seconds. My go to album for the week has been Cash and Nelson live VH1 Storytellers. Listed to a couple of tracks, put the risers back in, out, and then in again.

Without question there is an audible difference. With the risers in, the music has greater intensity and realism—I can actually hear the reverb in the recording room. Pretty cool. The vocals are more forward and the timbre in the guitar is clearer. If I want a mellower sound, I can drop the risers out. 
 

Aside from the aesthetics, this is a definitely in the why the heck not department—no cost. If you don’t hear a difference, no loss when using scrap wood. 
 

(I don’t understand snake oil pot shots for an easy to try and free tweak. If it’s not your thing, how about scroll on)

Now, I’m going to see if I can use my building blocks to build even higher risers.

Here's mine. 

They do absolutely nothing, but they sure look neat.  Less than 20 bucks into them. 

@w123ale  agreed!  Seems very system, cable and flooring dependent.  Seems pretty clear and simple.  If it improves the sound in your system great use them, if not, don’t use them and scroll on!  I have wood floors and ribbon cables so no improvement but I still use a few since i made them.  Why not. 

OP,

Thanks for the feedback on your test. This is why lifters have been around for at least thirty or forty years. I got mine around then… ceramic electrical… were relatively inexpensive back then and are a permanent part of my system. All this little stuff adds up. 

Ha.. my wife bemoaned me trying them...Mind you the first shot at it i used dollar store tumblrs that i had enough to cover cables.All the while she was making dinner peeing and moaning "blah blah"....Grabbed a beer and played first disk.She couldnt believe it made that much difference.She was quiet the rest of night 😉

My system audio rack is close enough to the front wall that I just use 3M wall hooks. While trying to figure out the lay of the cable, raising and lowering it see where it would fit against the wall, the sound improved with every inch I raised the cable, all the while I was standing to the side of my speaker. 

It was so obvious and immediate even at that position. I kept raising it and found no benefit past the 6" mark so that's how I hung them (no puns intended).

All the best,
Nonoise

I once read a recommendation from Mapleshade Audio to keep cables elevated at least 8" (? it could have been 6" ) off the ground , 

@nonoise and others interested in the wall hanging Mapleshade makes good looking wall cable holders .

@vair68robert 

Thanks, I'll look into that as the 3M wall hangers do look a mite cheesy. 

All the best,
Nonoise

So, if cables touch or lay on each other is that considered to be an audiophile no no?  What is the difference between carpet, porcelain tile or wood floor or wood blocks?  The juice is what is inside the cable not outside the cable.  So how does raising a cable or cord matter?  I am not being a jerk, just trying to nderstand the science.

@willgolf -

What is the difference between carpet, porcelain tile or wood floor or wood blocks?

So how does raising a cable or cord matter?  I am not being a jerk, just trying to nderstand the science.

                 If that's true: read my last post/references, to this thread.

 The juice is what is inside the cable not outside the cable.

                 Not according to any science, after the 19th Century.    

I’m with your family. 

I’ve tried cable lifters- wood one and ceramic ones. No difference to my ears 

they did absolutely no difference in my system....all Ayre, Vandersteehn

I like Audioquests new fog lifters, as they are unobtrusive. I just wish the plastic was clear, not black.

Audioquest claims their testing showed lifters need to be minimum 15cm high to be effective. Note that almost all lifters audiophiles use are well below that.

I use fingertip towel rings. There is no way for the cable to fall off the support because it it threaded through the rings.. The base is weighted so it will not fall over. The weight of the cable makes it self stabilizing as well.

 

Target has a good selection of finger tip towel rings:

https://www.target.com/p/mdesign-metal-fingertip-towel-holder-for-bath-vanity-countertop/-/A-81209570?preselect=81209569#lnk=sametab

Looking at the images, the Speaker is as noticeably elevated of the floor as is the Cables.

The Speaker elevated will never be met with same contention as the notion to elevated the Cables.

There is a certain elegance and interest formed when seeing the Cables rested upon their various methods used to produce a podium support. 

It sounds like you've engaged in some interesting experimentation with your hifi setup! Elevating speaker cables using wooden building blocks is a creative approach to tweaking your audio system. The changes you've described, such as greater clarity, improved soundstage, and enhanced texture, could indeed be a result of this adjustment.

Using risers or elevators to isolate components or cables from the floor can have subtle effects on sound quality. By minimizing vibrations and potential interference from the floor, you might be able to achieve a more focused and refined sound. However, the impact of such tweaks can vary based on the specific setup, room acoustics, and equipment being used.

It's not uncommon for audiophiles and enthusiasts to experiment with various tweaks and adjustments to optimize their systems. Different isolation methods, cables, speaker positioning, and room treatments can all contribute to the overall sound quality. What's most important is that you're enjoying the process and the improvements you perceive.

If you're curious about other people's experiences with similar tweaks, you might want to explore online audio forums, where enthusiasts often share their experiments and findings. Just keep in mind that audio perception can be subjective, and what works for one person might not necessarily work the same for another.

Ultimately, the goal is to create a listening environment that brings you enjoyment and satisfaction. If using wooden building blocks as risers enhances your listening experience, then there's no harm in incorporating them into your setup. Enjoy your music and the journey of fine-tuning your audio system!

rebar chairs

@dolfan , Funny. I’ve been using them for years. The ones I have go up to 7’’.

I was thinking about trying the Furutech NCF cable lifters primarily based upon Audio Bacon’s review