"audiophiles listen to their equipment"

I don’t think that you will find many who disagree with you on this site 

@magon I am the one not among "many" who, according to mahler126, would disagree with you. I think your comparison with instrument designer/maker is spot on.

I’d suggest there’s a spectrum. Those of us who play are more inclined to think of music in terms of its formal elements: melody, harmony, rhythm, etc. Of course we love beautiful sounds but that is not the essence. For us, say, the psychoacoustical experience of a tri-tone interval has little to do with sonics. On the other hand, those who do not play but grew up with a parent or friend who was an audiophile and whose initial exposure and process of falling in love with music (or however you prefer to describe it) was inextricably linked to refined sonics will understandably tend to define music more in terms of sonics. There are those who possess an engineering mindset for whom music happens to be the particular arena in which they choose to utilize their inventiveness. They may tend to regard music more in terms of a challenge to their technical expertise/creativity. Three possible points along a spectrum.

I've always been confused by this whole "listening to your equipment" argument.  I'm not listening to my speaker, I'm listening to the music coming out of the speaker.  And why wouldn't I want that to sound as good as it possibly can?  Would I rather listen to someone just learning to play the violin, or Perlman?  The idea they are both music so I shouldn't be concerned over the quality, is silly.  IMHO

@bigtwin x10

When evaluating my system for faults or opportunities for improvement, I listen critically, typically to well-culled tunes with ranges of frequencies. When exploring new music I want something that touches me in an emotional way. And if it strikes me in a good way it immediately goes into a playlist for further culling in or out later. And then sometimes a nice glass of bourbon and hitting random play is equally enjoyable (Calgon, take me away). Those are my 3 categories of listening depending on my mood.

The only possible argument is maybe what s correct in pitch or tone ?

some like it more neutral like a dac or speaker that may provide more focused imaging ,vs say a dac that may not be as lock on focus imaging but 

easy to listen to without having to analyze the music 🎶 it just flows ,this too is why

system synergy is so important.

My take on this ongoing separation of listening to the equipment or the music it produces...it's absolutely a ridiculous point.  Anyone who has been playin'  this game  for decades knows that they both exist.  And they should! If I change a piece of gear I am certainly listing to it analytically.  When it becomes acceptable it simply falls into the background.  The music is the deal...isn't what this pursuit is about?

Regards,

barts

I look at it this way: mediocre equipment separates one from the musical event while great equipment brings it to you. The former makes you concentrate on the equipment while the latter frees you from it. It's all a matter of perspective. 

All it takes is one or two pieces in the chain to put you in either camp, hence the desire for better equipment. The love of music should always be there.

All the best,
Nonoise

....and up to the individual to vote with their budget as to what 'mediocre equipment' may be or not....and how such can be 'elevated' and used for it's strengths, sidestepping it's weaknesses....

Sure, that does require a degree or 3 of analytical listening and some 'hack attacks' on items that in my case are beyond warranty anyway....  

The 'fun' part is when I've made it work to my satisfaction, current as that may be, subject to the next tweak to a detail....

Even if $ no object (not my option), my choices would likely still make one scratch their head and think me even more of 'the odd man out'.
I've only self to please, although any and all are welcome to visit....
Sometimes I think y'all are scared of me.

"Boo" *ironic L*

If cost was no object, you'd likely see me at AXPONA and think "...it's not as expensive as 'X, Y, or Z, but they're omni's....they can't sound good...."

D amps and all....😏

At least it wouldn't require a 2nd on the house to enjoy, major wattage, and be less of a major distraction in the SAF schemes....

Ah, well...born at the right time to the wrong people.....but we all have to run what we've brung.... ;)

AXPONA might be a tad less crowded this year.....just my crystal balls swirling stuff....😎

This is  a fools chase… you either get inside the music or your hung up on stats and numbers and diagnoses telling you the music is good.Hows your hearing…? thats the only way to determine if your happy with what your have.. its so simple either you like your creation or you dont…or if you can even  tell the dam difference  anyway   

So what, if audiophile listen to their equipment, and who really cares!!!  Happy listening. 

I listen to my equipment make music.

As most of you are im pretty old. I think music accompanied most of through our  lives via transistor radio in stores you name it. The way i see it the music of my youth takes me back in time to places and memories of the past. Now just like going to an old neighborhood, it's fine to get there in a Subaru but I'd rather drive a nice luxury sedan or SUV. The ride to the memories makes the memories even sweeter.

@paqua123 The issue I have with your analogy is that the luxury sedan doesn't have anything to do with the memories. But for me, the sound qualities of the system have a musical meaning. A good example is quality of the micro and macro dynamics. 

I'm mainly focused on classical so my reference (and my memories from youth) is live acoustic music.

I've never really understood the "critical listening" angle. That's basically the opposite of simply listening for pleasure. If you're listening critically, you'll hear things that sound good to you, but you'll also hear things that don't which will lead you to find different equipment. If you only hear positive things, your system is perfect for you and you'll never need to "upgrade" and we all know that's a rarity among this crowd. 

@roadcykler I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but I find that "critical" listening can go wrong sometimes, in the sense that the impressions it gives me are sometimes unconnected with listening for pleasure. An example is a system that impresses me while I'm listening for performance, but then leaves me cold when I try to actually enjoy it. I want to stay away from that.

@magon sure it does, it is what transports you to the memories. The memories are there waiting, you system brings you back to them.

@brilliantdisplays ...and I agree with you, it can be a race to the top that potentially is irrelevant when one 'hits the wall' of greater than your 'on-board' organic ears.
Mine require my aids to have a more 'typical' presentation, but I'm still able to discern 'differences'...
My case in point:
If I'm away from my 'stuff' for a extended period of time...say, a month....I've a period of re-adjustment to it.  I chalk that response to being exposed to various 'n sundry that was certainly 'whatever' it may have been....vehicle radios, Muzak, you get the drill..  If there was the time and the situation, scan the area for a B&M that didn't require an appointment I'd unlikely be able to keep....

2 long excursions drove me to take a small D amp and my 'bookshelf' omni's along, the front end being my cell....Missed the sub that usually paired with, but beat zed.

Spouse thought it nutz initially but our employees were down with it....
"Good tunes?!  👍😎"  

Have Audio Will Travel
(LP's excluded....Picky,  not insane.)
My cell is my Pre, I shall not want. ;) 🤷‍♂️👏✨

@kennymacc & @aewarren ...Precisely.
It's a reproduction of an 'event, elsewhere' after all....
The means to do so is totally up to you, advised or not.
Tune up your mind and ears and go forth into the wilder mess...and mind the holes... ;)

@paqua123 *G* Same fate here, much the place/event memories of the time.
A lot of those places have or have not remained the same, or exist at all anymore.

As for those involved then, moved, dead or could be.  Family mostly keeps track of each other if only for the countdown to the bottom of the list...

Too many places I'd rather be on approach to.... *S*

I'd opt for a Lotus Exige S v. the luxcruiser...😏 ....but a 'warmed up Subu could do well enough if taking the route rarely used beckons hard enough...

...that memory thing... ;) J

Listening "criticality " makes me dissect everything and that's NOT fun....   Getting drawn into the music because it just sounds good is more appealing to me.  

My second system keeps me in check.  It sounds damn good , i listen to it 75% of the time.  It's compact and simple.  Keeps me off the upgrade merry go round. 

When I think I need "more" I go in the main room and listen to that system for a while.   

I'm at the point where I just want to consume tons of music and choice of system comes down to mood and how much free time I have.   

Your system is "good" when you are cautious about making any changes. Basically they both sound so good I'm going to leave things alone for a while 

Music is something that happens in your mind.  The stimulus need not be a sound.  A written score does not need to be played to be understood as music.  A sound designer/editor can look at a waveform and see the music.  A profoundly deaf person can feel music.

The majority of people on this planet do not need audiophile quality sound to enjoy reproduced music.  Even when exposed to audiophile quality sound reproduction the majority of people are not converted.  Musicians famously do not require audiophile sound.  Only audiophiles need audiophile quality sound, hence they are listening to their systems.  And there's nothing wrong with that.

“For the love of music”

We listen to music through our equipment — the two are inseparable. I can't fully appreciate music from just my laptop. I need to hear it played back through my system, seated at the main listening position in my IKEA Poäng armchair, eyes closed, while the massager kneads my back.

Isn't that the whole point of chasing ultimate equipment — to achieve the ultimate enjoyment of music listening? I don’t quite understand the cliché some people repeat, saying they can finally enjoy the music more with subpar equipment.

Well I think this is part of the problem with double blind and similar listening tests. Listening for a difference is the worst type of critical listening. Further, you know you are being tested so it changes the entire experience.

No one wonders how we can BOTH think about the taste of our food and then go back to enjoying it.

So why is this such an issue for sound and music?

Honestly, it's only a dilemma for those in the grip of nervous audiophile syndrome.

The rest of us can move between analyzing and enjoying without needing to call our therapist in the middle of the night.

@hilde45    +1 Too many "Drama Queens".

Everyone, regardless of caring about sound quality is literally listening to the equipment, this includes the recording equipment. Beyond this why does someone else care about mine or anyone's listening preferences.

In order to choose new equipment we bring out our analytical skills and look for variables we can detect between equipment. The easiest is details and slam. They are both very easy to detect and rewarding... hearing stuff you never heard before. As you pursue the hobby you add additional parameters. 

The problem arises that you can get caught in the analytical mode and when you go home you stay in the analytical mode because what you bought A sound spectacular pleasing to the analytical mode, but does not communicate the music... there is nothing to drop back to. Over time, you end up with an incredible electronic instrument for reproducing sound and lost the music. Music and its emotional connection is primarily communicated through the midrange and rhythm and pace. You can completely loose that.

Then when you sit down and listen, to your system. What is there is incredible bass and detail, imaging but it doesn’t grab you and suck you in. Easy trap. One symptom of this is that you get bored with listening after forty five minutes or an hour. A musical system will glue you to it. After three hours of listening to my system I have to tear myself away... just one more tune!

Lots of high end audio manufactures have had to cater to what people want: incredibly detailed, shiny spectacular, transparent sound with huge kick...so that is what they give them. Some companies have remained true to the goals of producing the best music possible. They add detail and bass, but not at the expense of the music. The gestalt of the presentation must be right.  Most of these still use tubes (Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, VAC for instance), although some solid state manufactures are getting better. 

I agree and admit that the sound of an audiophile system is “inseparable from the music”.  For me, it is because the nuances of sound reproduction of an audiophile system, especially timbral accuracy, image density, micro-dynamics, macro-dynamics, and retrieval of ambient queues, bring me closer to memories of lithe sound of concerts I attended.  However, I have two listening modes.  Critical listening is reserved for system analysis, especially when contemplating a spend for new equipment, or when demonstrating my system to others.  In this mode I focus on the sound of the equipment.  I estimate I am only in critical listening mode 10% of the time.  90% of the time I am in musical appreciation (enjoyment) mode, not listening to equipment but rather to the composition and performance.  There was a time in my life when I focused only on the equipment, leading to a feeling of never being satisfied.  I have learned, or perhaps it is just an old age maturation process, where I am satisfied with my system and simply enjoy the music. 

Sorry. Spell check k got me again.  Cues not queues.  

Beyond this why does someone else care about mine or anyone's listening preferences.

Good question. 

I think it's because people who are caught in the endless upgrade cycle need a touchstone to help skyhook them out of it. That skyhook is, "This is supposed to be about the music." To which all I can say is, "Says who?"

@onhwy61 So many misconceptions.

If you ever study orchestration you realize that music is a phenomenon of sound. I mean, you can realize that easily if you just pay attention, but I pick this as in incontrovertible example.

The majority of people on this planet do not need audiophile quality sound to enjoy reproduced music.  Even when exposed to audiophile quality sound reproduction the majority of people are not converted.  Musicians famously do not require audiophile sound.  Only audiophiles need audiophile quality sound, hence they are listening to their systems. 

First of all, many audiophiles do not "need audiophile quality sound" to enjoy music. When listening for new music in particular, I love what I discover on YouTube or the car radio and really enjoy it. Yes, CAR RADIO with the presence of road noise and wind noise. 

I'm focused on classical music, and you seem to unaware that live acoustic concerts, which many people insist on for the most enjoyment of music, are better than audiophile quality. So, no, "audiophile quality" is not an elusive thing that no one has heard or that "everyone but audiophiles" rejects. Note that by "audiophile quality classical music" I mean approaching the qualities of live sound. 

@ghdprentice Great description of the problems that occur when we listen too analytically and make decisions while in analytical mode. I did something similar... choose an impressive headphone amp years ago and eventually it was my only working amp... and discovered recently that certain "warts" in the sound were not coming from my DAC but rather from my amp. It had an overly forward upper midrange, and this was killing enjoyment. As you can imagine I listened to my system much less during this time. I thought I just had found other hobbies and was keeping busy with them, but no, turned out my system was just not as enjoyable.

If you didn't personally work at....say....Yamaha's musical instruments division or their hifi division, how the heck would you know?

As a end user, you can't compare yourself to the guys who designed instruments or equipment 

That quote is misattributed to Alan Parsons, as I understand. Anyway saying there's a problem with wanting good sound is like saying an instrument designer, aiming for beautiful sound, could not possibly be a music lover and is only interested in the sound of the instruments. I.e. the sound is inseparable from the music. For me the beauty of the sound, good microdynamics, and so on, are the "doors" to the meaning of the music.

Is it OK if I listen to both??

@magon yes, live music is different than reproduced music.  Good luck with your further explorations in the meaning of music.

I think some of you are thinking about this way too much! Why even differentiate? 

@onhwy61 

live music is different than reproduced music

Not necessarily. I love live classical music, and I love reproduction that gets close to the characteristics of live. I know a recording engineer and musician who wrote a book on recording as a way of practicing, aimed at other musicians. He said, "Just listen to the recording the same way you listen to live music. Some engineers will tell you it's not supposed to sound like live music. Don't believe them."

@audition__audio 

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but I saw it on Audio Science Review, in a post in which dozens of "engineer-types" chimed in to mock audiophiles, so I think it was worth thinking about it long enough to give an answer. Plus, it actually connects with my philosophy of listening and music-making (i.e. the sound is inseparable from the music) which is worth some time thinking about.

Everyone has their own taste. Some people like tubes, some don’t. Some people like speakers that are warm and musical while others find those same speakers to be veiled and muffled. Some people take their joy from putting together the best equipment they can while others are not so particular about that. Trying to define for someone else how they should listen to music doesn’t really work 
 

@kerrybh 

I agree. But I think the measurement-loving types who hurl this insult at audiophiles are not just criticizing someone else’s taste, but making a wrong implication about some nearly objective facts about music listening and music-making.

 Amir is smart in that taking such an extreme stance attracts many malcontents. 

3 friends listening to the stereo together:

musician: I like the trumpet player's last cadenza - a touch of Louie, there

audiophile: I found the bass a bit thin

engineer-type: Sorry, I wasn't listening.  Busy playing with my slide rule...

The “better” the system is, the more it gets out of the way  & lets the musical artists & sometimes the recording & mastering engineers talents to shine through. It is more “faithful” to the original recording. 

While I can & do enjoy a great song in my mediocre car system, I can enjoy it much more w/ the fidelity of my home system & the greater detail & nuance etc. it offers.

I agree. Even poor recordings sound better on a good system. So much more detail even if this detail is a bit harsh or compressed.

Excessive compression is the single parameter of sound I can't get past,. Loss of micro dynamics in recordings defeats the whole purpose of my system which is to produce the illusion of live performers in room.  I actually prefer these 'lo fi' recordings on relatively lo fi systems like in my car.

The term 'audiophile' began its' life in the mid 1950s.... "a person who is especially interested in high fidelity sound reproduction."

Notice 'music' is not mentioned... 

The 'haters' like to claim audiophile status just for liking music... not.

We search out equipment... cables... tweaks... room treatment... moving speakers a 1/4"... to perfection... all for reaching the best possible reproduction of sound ... that we can afford.

And we try everything... even cable risers... and as our systems get better, we don't stop... we just keep listening for the next best thing.

That is an Audiophile... everything matters.

@hilde45 ...

No one wonders how we can BOTH think about the taste of our food and then go back to enjoying it.   

I think listening to ones' equipment is analogous to considering how your dish was prep'd, cooked, and plated...

...but my spouse is a food show junky....a format that's so ripe for parody I almost can't stand the lack of.... 
Although 'Cutthroat Kitchen' with a physical end to the losers might be a little off-putting....*L*