If you are really just about the music and not the gear, you can get a streaming system and a really good pair of wireless headphones for under $2K.
At what price is one considered an Audiophile.
Audiophilia, what is is it?
Is it the love of music or the equipment that presents the music.
Or is it both?
What is the cost of admission?
How much does one have to spend on equipment to be considered an Audiophile, if it is truly the later than the music.
What has membership to this perceived exclusive club cost you?
181 responses Add your response
"My pet peeve is when one obsesses over the law of diminishing returns. " I think the key question is: "Did I get my money’s worth?" Let’s say, for a moment, that the universe inserts a rule where significant differences in quality happen at around 2x the price. A use this "rule" using audio as a basis, where 3db is a significant increase in perceived loudness. This 3db increase also requires 2x the power (or, number of speakers) to obtain this goal. Applying this ’rule", to get a significan increase in SQ from, say, a $300 speaker, we’ll need to be at $600. All is going well enough in this scenario until, we reach serious money. A $30k speaker now requires a $60k investment (and, bank loan?) to obtain. You might find this rule "silly" and can think of (valid) examples of why this isn’t true. But, the point being, when you start throwing big dollars at an audio system, the upgrades can be quite expensive. And, yes, worth every penny. |
when a great friend stops by to hear her top 100 recording and declares the listening chair…. “ God’s Seat…”
BTW @whart has is own version of that seat… we don’t trade in envy… just the endless pursuit of better music…. |
@phusis +1 Mike |
@dayglow , No clue what you are talking about (the "convolution" could be in your head)..My Stereo rig runs between 100 to 150k depending on what I throw in it. My multichannel rig might be around 20 to 30k, ~50 to 60k if treatments are included. The gateway drug/affordable/bona-fide audiophilia rig I posted above I what my daughter currently runs in her apartment. If high end audio died with my generation (avg age: 50 to 70), it may have a lot to do with the type of "personalities" that hang out in hifi forums. |
Thank for your appreciation... I did not rebuild the headphone ... It was a very good design to begin with... I changed the inner shell chamber by extracting the thick grid that was there for protection not sound quality.... I put anti vibration product inside, 2 complementary one, sorbothane duro 70 and Fo.Q tape from japan ... I chose the right pads on five possible choices i bought at low cost in China because the volume of the shell chamber matter then the thickness of the pad matter a lot and i pick a perforated pad for better results ... I used the right equalization to be nearer the Harman curve ... I picked the right amplifier , after trying two others the second more cleaner among the three but the more powerful because this K340 are picky to drive ...I used a dac more on the analysing side deliberately because this headphone is very organic and need very clean source...i used also my homemade protecting EMI plate ( shungite+copper tape ) all along beside my components ... Etc... Without all this my headphone is not at all the same... Now it beat anything i heard in headphones... This is only simple experiments... It takes me 6 months to reach the end... It was fun and low cost... Do you prefer to buy a 5,000 bucks headphone which i even doubt will beat my 100 bucks K340 on ALL acoustic counts because anyway by design he is one of its kind and prove that very old design can be irreplaceable even today ? Learning is fun it takes only thinking and experimenting...But you are right it is costly in time and i am retired...
I call that optimization ... It is trying that or throwing money on the gear ... I prefer to motivate creativity here than claiming that costly upgrade are the only one solution as most think anyway erroneously ... The minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold dont ask for 100,000 bucks of gear ... Please understand that i spoke this way to motivate people and push them to study a bit before making useless half the time big expanse...
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Everybody knows that my 700 bucks system cannot rival many more expansive one we can see in the virtual system pages as a real or potential better audiophile experience 😁... This is a common place indisputable fact ...I dont brag about any system myself including mine , i invite people to STUDY AND EXPERIMENT instead or before upgrading ... What many people ignore is that we can have an audiophile experience at low cost ANYWAY, provide we know or learn how to create synergy and know or learn how to control mechanical, electrical and acoustical embeddings of any audio system ... Claiming otherwise is reinforcing the false belief that the relation between good sound and a better sound is depending on the gear mainly and more depending especially only on the gear price... This is double falsehood : Synergy and the acoustics/psycho-acoustics knowledge and not only room acoustic here, is the basis of audiophile experience not merely the gear design , and more than that there is no linear relation between audiophile experience value and gear price ...
Now if someone read my post as meaning that i deny the audio quality value of high end designed component compared to low cost solutions , he misread my post COMPLETELY... I say that acoustic and other basic knowledge are more valuable than gear price and as much as important to create and reach the MINIMAL ACOUSTIC SATISFACTION THRESHOLD ...When we cross this threshold music became so immersive we forgot upgrades, most of us at least , save the obsessive compulsive consumers who anyway focus on gear price scale upgrade not on knowledge or acoustic experiments... ... |
@deep_333 If your current system is your final audio destination kudos. What is offensive is claiming anyone that has or desires an audio system of better build and sound quality cares less about music and more about gear? That might get the award for "most convoluted" statement on Audiogon! |
@ghdprentice wrote:
So, if one is really to adhere by the boldfaced part, the components involved could, strictly speaking, be either cheaper or more expensive, right? And yet you continue with..
If sound quality truly is the only objective, then why is it automatically assumed price always has a strict bearing? To your logic then price is the only objective, to which sound quality must follow by necessity. I mean, which is it? If sound quality really is where you're coming from (and your specific position on what constitutes good sound quality likely isn't shared by everyone) I would imagine the outcome is somewhat more varied in price range, segment, brand, principle, design and what not than what you would propose or imply.
So, the man of freshly produced audiophile gear, widely known brands and "on beat" techniques is at odds with, or really throws a slightly condescending glance at the individuals who'd choose used (and in effect cheaper) "off brand" gear and "off techniques" (compared to what, one might add), as someone aspiring to be a true, seasoned audiophile. I fail to see the relevance of what you write with anything that's a true bearing on an individual's pursuit, goals and actual achievements in regards to audio reproduction - regardless of price and approach - other than telling me more about you. |
@hilde45 That's how much I spent on dinner with my daughter and her husband last night, well close.. I go off cheap!😎 Was some really good Korean BBQ with K-Pop blaring in the background.
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The AKG K340 was uncontested flagship headphone put against the best Stax at the times and today... Cost used for me : 100 bucks... They contain two new technology never used together again... Kennerton representative said to me when i ask the question , that to recreate these with today standards it will cost too much in research...They are not interested to recreate an hybrid...None of my 9 other headphones beat the K340 because all gave an unnatural sound even the two low cost Stax i owned...I throw them out of my music system...It takes me 6 months of experiments to modify the K340 and optimize them...They are old(45 years old ) they needed it... Their soundfield is natural timbre and speaker-like and they gave me the original recording acoustic to hear...Not bad for 100 bucks...
My amplifier is a Sansui alpha: cost used 300 bucks...It is the top of Sansui history in amplification ... It is so good i returned my upgrade purchase of a Berning tube amplifier after one hour of listening ...The synergy of the Sansui with the K340 was too good... No comparison...I dont criticize the Berning amp here, i underline the necessary synergy... Is the Sansui alpha no more high end amplifier ? Yes it is not a low fi product even for today... Synergy matter sorry in a high end system not only the design ...
Add to that my contemporary dac , a low cost one WITH NO APPARENT lacks in any way.... Cost 200 bucks...Hidizs AP 80 pro...
I consider my audio system high end....total cost near 700 bucks... 😁
i will add my nearfield modified active speakers in their acoustic small room paid 100 bucks 12 years ago, M-Audio AV 40.. I use them for music ONLY after 6 modifications/optimization... Not BEFORE...They reach 50 hertz now instead of the 85 hertz in the specs sheet... I add 17 tubes bundle of straws of different volume and lenght to the porthole... ( many speakers are Hemholtz resonator ) I increase the directivity of the tweeter with a cylinder for my near field listening... And i mechanically decrease the crosstalk level... It is NO MORE the speakers they were in their original box... I put them in a special acoustic corner with diffuser, absorption and reflective surface ratio... An audiophile must learn acoustic and how to embed gear... This had nothing to do with price tag.... My goal is and was the best system in the world for peanuts price... I will bragg then about basic knowledge and creativity not about my wallet... 😊 Beware: Right out of the box with no optimization , no modification , no acoustic control, i dont like my system and it is not high end...Now it is.... Acoustics knowledge rule the gear not the reverse...
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For example, Elac Debut Reference Floorstanders from Andrew Jones - $1400 Rythmik L12 Subwoofer - $629 Yamaha A-S701 integrated amp - $800 Schiit Modi Multibit DAC - $300
Sum Total = 3129 USD ----> The fidelity and musicality of this setup is bonafide audiophilia. For a "music first" audiophile (not a gearhead, not a brand name snob, not a dude in pursuit of audio jewelry or elusiveness, etc), this could be end game. 20 years ago, he would have had to spend magnitudes more for this quality of sound. The above mentioned ballpark would be the price of admission. |
I believe if you call yourself an Audiophile, you are, just the real desire to be such, makes it so. I am an audiophile, and have been since 1964, I took apart my parents console and built boxes for the speakers, hung them over my headboard, and ran speaker wires from the back of the console to the speakers, laid in bed and played records.....I was an audiophile. |
@2psyop +1 for Bose. It rocks! 🤣
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My pet peeve is when one obsesses over the law of diminishing returns. IMO this does not exist if one considers themselves an Audiophile. Where did this simple minded formula come to fruition... $20k amp must sound 10x better than a $2k amp? How could this even be measured(lol)? The $20k amp could be capable of hundreds of sonics improvements over the $2k amp. IMO the $20k amp is the bargain. |
@mahgister, kudos for the Dostoyevsky quote! Just when it seemed like this thread might be reaching the "beating a dead horse" phase, you provided that gem. |
I think we’ve gotten some "hits" and "misses" here. Mostly "hits." Being an "audiophile" can worn as a badge of honor. It depends on how we use it. Yes, we can weaponize our "audiophile status" to belittle others and position ourselves in a position of superiority. Or, we can be a humble servant -- worthwhle asset in helping to deliveri the best musical experiences for others. Perhaps, turn them on to some great music in the process? Our inner audiophile makes ours, and other’s lives better -- on many levels. Somewhere along the way, our experiences have navigated us towards the pursuit of better sound. The "price of admission" the to obtain the goals of better sound required an intellectual journey, an investment in time and, yes, resources. It is the pursuit that defines us, not what is sittling in/on the rack at home. As mentioned earlier, I believe the "audiophile system" is that system that best fulfills the objectives of the listener after following something resembling an "audiophile path." IF that system is budget/space constrained, so be it. The fact that we took the "audiophile path" -- research, listening, peer review etc. to make those choices is what defines us. And, makes it "an audiphile system." This process also leads us to an understanding of a component/system’s limitations and we make it a point to do so. There have been several posts here by those stating they went to Big Box and bought a <insert popular brand name consumer product> and "LOVE IT." Well, this may be the case. But, if we haven’t taken the time to evaluate other components at, near, or even multiples of price point above that, we don’t know it’s limitations. The "audiophile path" is missing, therefore, its is a "one and done consumer choice" and not a carefully selected product based on it’s performance vs the rest of the world, as a true "audiophile" would have done. I am familiar with many of the items listed here, and can politely state that there’s a lof of music that never leaves those boxes -- compared to other choices in the category.
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Audiophile means that someone love sound, why? Because he had learn how to learn hearing better ... Is it elitist ? It is as being not deaf is BETTER state in a general way compared to a deaf people... We can listen very well classical music on a phone, music is not sound, but sound can be music , then any musician, even those who dare not to play the audiophile game know the difference between different violins quality levels, Stradivarius, Guarneri and 500 bucks instruments ... We live an era with no education at all given ,( because it was deemed not necessary for a slave worker especially a voting one , save if he pay a lot more than he can to afford it , guess why ?) where we brag about staying ignorant , and where we had learn how to despise any "elite" on any form even biological ... Sorry, elite exist in all aspects of life and for all activities and studies; woman are elite by design and man too, not by choices save for conditioned fools...... The rest is studying and practising... There is no point in being a non elite baker .... Will you pay for his bread ?
“Tolerance will reach such a level that intelligent people will be forbidden to think so as not to offend fools” Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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The Politically Correct answer will be cost is irrelevant. Now, the Real World rephrasing of the question is What is the minimum that can be spent to have a truly quality system? I have heard some powered speakers for about $2K that were excellent, containing amplification, DAC, and streamer. Add a phone and you are done. If I ever get a second home, this is how I will go |
Hi, I think the term audiophile is a bit misleading as the person who enjoys listening to music will listen to an audio vel sound = performed music, and the gear lover will listen to the audio vel sound = performed and recorded music. Both seems to be very close to each other, aren't they? In my view, very often the audiophile tend to fall in love with the gear (equipment) and many do not care about music performance any more. So maybe this should be called: gear lover or audio-tech-phile? Yes, that's not about all of audiophiles as they're many dedicated music lovers and listeners. Enjoy Your listening... to music as well! |
I don’t like the term audiophile. Crucially, speech to text never gets it right. Plus, it just sounds pretentious. I simply say that I care about the way sound is reproduced. I don’t even know how we can talk about price. If we bought gear years ago, inflation comes into play. I spent $2,000 on a system in 1981 when I had very little in the way of assets. That’s equivalent to over $6700 today. I haven’t spent anywhere near that amount since. Partly because I still use some of that old equipment. I buy things on sale and often get incredible deals. Plus lots of people buy their gear used. I recently bought a pair of Bowers and Wilkins 705s, the original version. Sold for $1,500 at the time of release which is equivalent in today’s money to $2075. But I bought them for $800. Because the issue of money is so complicated, I just say: fehgetaboutit. I contrast myself with a friend who is perfectly happy listening to music on her phone or tv. Pays zero attention to how sound is reproduced. Cannot understand why I would consider spending $2,000 on a new integrated amplifier. Her daughter is even adamant about not listening to music on my system. I never use the term audiophile in my conversations with them about sound. Or ever except here. |
I spent $300 on a B&O A1 for travel, sounds amazing for its size. I have an old Apple HiFi 3 way speaker, it rocks, I will never sell it. Also $300 my first recollection of music was at 5 years old listening to Nat King Cole on my Dad’s reel to reel that looked like a grey hardshell suitcase. I think it had built in speakers. My uncle had a B&O all-in-one system in what looked like a teak cabinet and a bunch of vinyl. Sunday dinners at their place (this was in England) was accompanied by all sorts of music but I guess predominantly Jazz On Xmas eve 1979 I helped my Dad pick out a JVC packaged separates system (int/tuner/cassette/tt/speakers) for $1270 to go in our newly finished “pub” we built in the basement (I was 15) we are now in Canada That makes me an audiophile. My current system is just an extension of that relative to income and expenses, and an understanding wife. |
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There is no cost of entry. If you had some hand me down speakers, set them up in a listening triangle, hung some coats on the side walls for absorption, and sat quietly intensely focusing on the music, you would be an audiophile. To me, being an audiophile is all about intent, set up, and a desire to improve sound quality. You don’t need expensive gear although it does help (as long as the expense leads to higher fidelity sound and not just status.) |
@mapman I bought it for $4.00 and she said hers was better😉 |
@2psyop why would you make such an assertion? Is that common in these parts? Is one born into this place? Is this the promised land? Honestly I really could care less if @bigtwin spent $500k on his system, I wanted to see what you all would answer. These answers tell a lot about this place and who is who and what is what being the new kid here. Guess I will mosey on to the next question, or forum. Hostile here. |
I am flabbergasted by the association of being audiophile, as a possible positive quality, is reduced to the highest gear price tag by most it seems... Acoustics rule the gear not the reverse... Being audiophile is not purchasing gear, it is LEARNING how to embed it acoustically because music experience matter , it matter over the specific attributed "sound" of an unplugged amplifier by virtue of his branded name and design and price ... |
The Cambridge dictionary defines an Audiophile: a person who is very interested in and enthusiastic about equipment for playing recorded sound, and its quality I kinda like that definition. Perhaps most music lovers are audiophiles at heart; I believe some audiophiles are in it just for subtle bragging rights much as some people have to see a movie first, have the flashiest car (or girlfriend, etc.), but IMO they’re missing the point. As Herman Hesse pointed out in Steppenwolf, if you learn the skills, even a crappy portable radio can sound like a symphony in your head. |
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OP is way more polite than I am but I will play along. It sure gets expensive like hell after a certain level. Every tube, every cone, every cable, not to mention active components. You can be anything in your imagination, try to build it in reality, that will require more effort and much more resources.
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Hey, $99 for Apple wireless headphones and some streamed music. |
You really don’t have to spend a lot. Back in the seventies, I bought, swapped and sold equipment. I bought barely broken pieces and fixed them. Most of the time it was either a wire that came loose or and resold . I made a friend at a local hifi store and for only a few percent, he sold my stuff. It wasn’t till the mid eighties that I ever had anything new and it was acquired by trading in other stuff. |
"Oh, and forget about music, it's all noise. Listen to the sounds. That's audiophile." "That's why you get so many nonsense responses. They are poor people with mid-fi stereos and questionable hearing." Some people have a 180 degree different take on what an audiophile is than I do. This type of pompous, elitist thinking is a prime example of what can make this hobby laughable to outsiders. |
