Clearly, single ended interconnects yield sound benefits as you move up a manufacturers product line, but do balanced cables yield the same improvement?
I upgraded from NORDOST FREY XLRs to CARDAS CLEAR XLRs. In my system, the step-up in audio performance was not subtle.
CAVEAT IMO:
- The degree of improvement is predicated by where the rest of components the your system falls in in the price/performance strata.
- each cable and components manufacturer displays their own bespoke sonic signature and thus form another key variable in your experimentation to find improvements and system synergy.
FWIW SUPPLEMENT: Here is a magazine article reporting about the “upgrade” benefits experienced at an audio fest that I also physically attended a few years ago, and I personally observed the the same experiences.
This is the CANADA HI-FI reporter’s mag report from the NORDOST cables bake-off exhibit actually performed live at TAVES in Toronto. It was in front of many, many attendees - The moves up the model line for audio improvements was clear.
".....I had a chance to sit in on a couple demonstrations in the Nordost room, giving my feet a well deserved break. I’m very familiar with the benefits of high quality cables and use a full Nordost Heimdall 2 loom with my reference two-channel setup. That being said, I always find the Nordost demonstrations to be an “ear-opening” experience.
Michael Taylor from Nordost demonstrated the significant sonic benefits of replacing an OEM cable with a Nordost model – in particular
1) a swap of a single USB cable, from OEM to Nordost Blue Heaven ($250/2m), to Heimdall 2 ($500/2m) and;
2) a swap of a single RCA interconnect, from OEM, to Blue Heaven, to Heimdall 2, to Tyr 2 and finally Valhalla 2.
Along with convincing the audience in the room that cables DO matter, I’ve now got the bug to upgrade...."
I do believe that cables matter. I want to put more money into my phono amplifier and spend more on my RCAs from the turntable (Technics 1200G/Hana ML) and less on the XLR phono preamp to preamp.
Looking to pickup Esoteric E-02 Balanced and have McIntosh MA12000/Sabrina X/REL S812.
I do believe that cables matter. I want to put more money into my phono amplifier and spend more on my RCAs from the turntable and less on the XLR phono preamp to preamp.
In deciding whether to go with XLR cables vs RCA cables, I was initially guided by Robert Harley in his complete Guide to High End Audio says (on page 215) “Many products offer the AES/EBU interface which is carried on a balanced line terminated with three-pin XLR connectors. Of these three conductors in a balanced signal, one is ground, one is the digital signal, and the third is the digital signal inverted. AES/EBU benefits from all of the advantages of balanced lines…and is transmitted at 5V, compared to the SPDIF’s 0p.5V. AES/EBU is usually the preferred interface because of this higher voltage, which confers greater timing precision, as well as greater noise rejection by virtue of the balanced connection.”
However, recently I read the following technical notes appearing on the Stealth Audio Cable site:
“There is absolutely no technical advantage in using balanced XLR instead of single-ended RCA with short cables (under several meters, and especially one meter), but still many people think, for some reason, that balanced is better, while in reality, balanced connection is only better with very long runs - 10 meters or more, or in turntable setups (especially from a phono cartridge, which is a balanced source by its nature, to the phono stage input).
The most common theory – which works well for me, because it coincides well with what I usually hear – is that single-ended connection (and gear) produces a natural spectrum of musical harmonics, same as in real life, while balanced gear (and connection) greatly reduces even (pleasant for our hearing harmonics), but leaves the odd (subjectively unpleasant, un-musical) harmonics virtually unmodified, unchanged, and thus DISTORTS the natural spectrum of harmonics, i.e. the ratio between odd and even harmonics, compare to life music.
A part of that theory is that our perception is less sensitive to the overall level of harmonic distortion (i.e. to the sum of odd and even harmonics) – than to the RATIO between odd and even harmonics. The same part of the theory explains why, for example, certain musical instruments sound “better” than others (why a Stradivarius violin sounds subjectively better than a modern instrument), and also explains why vacuum tube-based audio components usually sound more pleasing to a human ear than solid state, despite the overall level of harmonic distortion being usually several times as high in tube gear, compare to solid state gear.
The tonearm cable – from the cartridge to the phonostage – THIS IS where a balanced connection is superior (a phono cartridge is a balanced source, plus the signal is very, very small) – but, traditionally, contrary to the technical reason, most people use RCA cables with phono setups.
In general, I think that solid state units should have both balanced and RCA (for compatibility reasons), while tube gear should be RCA only: after all, the best sounding tube gear around - CAT, Jadis, Kondo of Japan - are RCA only.
However, while most equipment sounds better with RCA-terminated cables, it is true that some audio components do sound better using balanced XLR cables. NOT because the balanced connection is generally superior, but because of some other reasons, particular to the equipment.
Single-ended (RCA) and balanced XLR cables are different inside: RCA cables have one signal wire plus one shield/return, while balanced XLR cables have TWO identical signal wires plus shield (reference ground). Therefore, RCA and XLR cables cannot be converted to each other via just changing the ends.”
Despite the Stealth statement, it seems all of the cable manufacturers offer XLR cables in the one-meter length along with their RCA offerings, often at the same price but occasionally XLR is more expensive.
Curious to hear the opinions of the forum members on these two opinions.
Also, I read recently on this forum that in order for XLR cable to work properly, they must be connected to balanced equipment. But if manufacturers of gear offer balanced outputs and inputs, isn’t it presumed that the equipment is balanced? Otherwise, how would one know if the equipment is balanced. Thanks.
Why XLR cables in my system ( REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC & its stablemate REGA OSIRIS integrated amp)
Q. Why use XLR’s instead of unbalanced RCAs in some circumstances?
A, Because it is specifically designed to work best in its OEM design and reinforced as such in the OEM user manual
For example: from the REGA ISIS VALVE manual
”… The Valve Isis is best used in a fully balanced system using balanced XLR connectors and leads. (Rega balanced XLR leads available from your Rega dealer). The connections are as follows (please note - pin 2 & 3 are floating).
Pin 1 = Earth Pin 2 = Positive Pin 3 = Negative …”
The most common theory – which works well for me, because it coincides well with what I usually hear – is that single-ended connection (and gear) produces a natural spectrum of musical harmonics, same as in real life, while balanced gear (and connection) greatly reduces even (pleasant for our hearing harmonics), but leaves the odd (subjectively unpleasant, un-musical) harmonics virtually unmodified, unchanged, and thus DISTORTS the natural spectrum of harmonics, i.e. the ratio between odd and even harmonics, compare to life music.
@styleman^that^ theory is total new to me.
The only thing I have ever heard referenced to balanced configuration, is the CMRR advantage of noise being rejected.
Never anything about harmonics. How would the cable even know what to add?
It is solely about minimising noise.
This is the perfect example of a discussion that offers nothing but more confusion about what a music lover should do about using balanced vs unbalanced cables. Life is too short to dive that deeply into these issues. I use balanced, and I don't take the time to look back. Honestly, my ears and mood can have such variance in how it absorbs sound on a particular moment that those minuscule differences often differ as to what really sounds best, specially based on the recording you listen to.
If you stick with Mogami or Canare wires, you are assured of neutral cables. If you like the rest of your system, that's what I'd recommend. You can have cables made to your exact needed lengths and save a ton of money over the "boutique" brands.
If you are looking for flavoring, by all means try the boutique cables and be prepared to pay accordingly. The ones I've tried all did funny things to the sound. Not my cup of tea at all. So I think the "Clearly" in your first sentence would better be, "I think" or "Some people think" or "Cable manufacturers say."
my short answer is sometimes, but generally not nearly as important (as unbalanced rca ic’s)
btw, nothing in high end audio is necessary, the entire hobby is not necessary -- to have the means and desire play with any and all of this is a luxury in life
I've been using balanced cables in pro audio applications for decades, and when recording the audio for a TV show some years ago I swapped out some pedestrian cables for a set of new "expensive" balanced cables. Immediately heard an improvement (good headphones tied into the mixing board...live feed...you can hear the musician's heart beating). Mo bettah sounds mo bettah, and dats dat.
Most people can't help arguing balanced vs unbalanced even if the question is something else.
My answer to the original question is that moving very far up the manufacturers line in either balanced or unbalanced provides limited or no returns but that both types of connectors benefit from good wire, good connnections, and good connectors so don't go with amazon cables.
Differentially Balanced kit means 2 totally independent channels (not touching each other), including 2 separate power supplies (one for each channel/L/R), but often a single PS is substituted. How critical 2 v 1 is I don't know, BUT,....
Doesn't it make sense that totally isolating the channels (no cross talk, or other potential compromises) would provide 2 pristine channels? And if you understand that, THEN... how can ANY SE kit be true hi-end?
Differentially Balanced kit means 2 totally independent channels (not touching each other), including 2 separate power supplies (one for each channel/L/R), but often a single PS is substituted ...
That's not at all how a differentially balanced circuit works. A differentially balanced circuit uses both an inverting and non-inverting signal at its input, then amplifies the voltage difference between the two signals to produce the output.
Depending on the design of the balanced circuit, there can be substantial benefits to using it in balanced mode, rather than SE. For example, with ARC balanced preamps, you'll get 6 dB more level using it in balanced mode. That means 6 dB improved s/n.
It depends; the equipment must have differentially balanced circuitry to have significant benefit from balanced cable
There is 6 db more level
Experiment - we all are people with biases. I've first started Mogami and experimented with Kimber Kables - which I decided to buy because I thought there was an improvement in the dynamics especially at high and low frequencies.
My view is cables can compliment your system - I'd be deliberate on when you decide to invest in cables especially if you are considering upgrading other components.
... the equipment must have differentially balanced circuitry to have significant benefit from balanced cable ... There is 6 db more level ...
That depends on the particular differential circuit. For example, the AES48-compliant Atma-Sphere amps don’t seem to have higher gain on the balanced outs.
I would have to say yes, but it depends upon the ability of your system to reveal details in the music. In other words, a very expensive cable may not be able to reveal its full potential in some entry level systems. So yes I would agree with some posters here that it certainly is system dependent.
For example, with ARC balanced preamps, you'll get 6 dB more level using it in balanced mode.
I think that's because AES48 compliant was ignored by ARC when they designed the balanced circuit in their preamps. I'm not picking on ARC, I'm just saying. See the articles below:
I run XLR between preamp and monoblocks. After using for some time only RCA between DAC and Preamp I decided to check XLRs. With equally expensive RCA and XLRs the difference was subtsantial. Initially it was hard for me to say which one I like more as they offered tottally different musicality. And on top the aforementioned gain with the XLR further blurred the picture. I do not understand a lot about harmonics, but noticed that although the treble was somehow more fluid with the RCA it was also more fatiguing at higher levels. Probably due to different harmonics. XLR delivered more focused sound and definetly was more quiet. I lived for some time with both switching back and forth, but a bit surprisingly for me I left with no regret the XLRs in my system.
I specifically purchased a Denafrips stack (Pontus II DAC, Hades Pre-Amp, and Thallo Amp), in part because they are true balanced devices throughout......in fact the Thallo amplifier only accepts XLR inputs.
I am running Morrow Audio MA4 XLR interconnects (right now have a deal for 45% off with code SAVE45)......that comes out to about $181 for a 1 meter pair. For the price certainly worth a look
That's not at all how a differentially balanced circuit works. A differentially balanced circuit uses both an inverting and non-inverting signal at its input, then amplifies the voltage difference between the two signals to produce the output.
Depending on the design of the balanced circuit, there can be substantial benefits to using it in balanced mode, rather than SE. For example, with ARC balanced preamps, you'll get 6 dB more level using it in balanced mode. That means 6 dB improved s/n.
Maybe when noise is zero… @cleeds ?
But the idea of CMRR is usually more than 6dB.
Let’s look at each side:
In my experience it depends.
For example, the Pass Labs preamps and amps sound better with XLRs. Also, using XLRs with these components diminishes the audible difference between cables. I have experienced the same with Audio Research LS and Ref series preamps, as well as ARC CD players. With my Benchmark DAC3 HGC in my system I prefer single ended to preamp. I run a 15ft long Mogami Studio Gold XLR between Pass XP-12 preamp and XA-30.8 amp that powers my Wilson Sabrina. I compared it to my 1m Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper and yes there’s a slight difference but the AZs aren’t necessarily better and the difference in this case isn’t drastic.
Now I also had single ended Acoustic Zen interconnects and each step up the line brought a pretty significant improvement. There’s no substitute for trying though.
I'm thinking of moving the linestage along with the sources of course further from the speakers.
I'm currently using 1m Nordost Red Dawn XLR between the preamp and the power amp. (This option works definitely better than any RCA I have tried).
If I move it, I'd have to get 2x6m of balanced cables to reach the power amp. I guess the length will not make a difference in this case but what about the cable itself? I'd build something myself just because of the length. Maybe something like Belden 8402 or Mogami W2534 as Paul from PS Audio suggests.
Depends on what you mean by expensive. Having a balanced preamp to amp as well as two balanced sources the differences between cables is nearly identical to the differences in sound for single ended cables.
I tried basic balanced cables including Benchmark and two pro cables but found them to not sound as dynamic or clear as the Van den Hul hybrid and Nordost blue heaven cables.
They make the same difference and are worth the investment for me.
So, I gather that the answer to the original question is definitely maybe, or certainly could be.
@vonhelmholtzI think that it would be difficult to tell the difference between a $5 and $5000 XLR cable with any certainty in an ABX test.
But if it has been done, then we should be able to find it.
There are countless personal testimonials and poetic prose in magazines, that proclaim the money is well spent… just nothing that most would consider evidence being extant.
Clearly, single ended interconnects yield sound benefits as you move up a manufacturers product line, but do balanced cables yield the same improvement?
And not all the way up… sometimes different systems like different RCA cables.
The fact that recording studios are using regular cables, sort of suggests that:
When I lived on a substantial hill just outside Nashville, TN, there was so much RF in the air I could pick up radio stations through my cart and tube phono pre- that I had to eliminate any single ended cable and commit to all balanced cable for short runs of 1 to 2 meters. The result was no RF interference. I now live in the upper Midwest with great power sourced locally. RF and other airborne interference is limited here. All of my equipment is true balanced with a balanced run from pre-amp to mono block amps of 3 meters. Absolute silent noise floor. I attribute that to conscientious cable routing and balanced ICs.
The best way to solve this, IMO, is to do what I did, which is buy the same exact cables, one set with balanced XLR and the other set with RCA (WBT RCA in my case) and test them back and forth in your system in your room with your ears. When I did this for a few months I actually found that I preferred the RCA. You may find the opposite, and unless someone else is paying for your system, your opinion is the only one that is right for you.
That said, my cable runs are very short (<1 meter) so it may not make a difference for me. "They" say if you have long runs it makes a difference, but I have not heard it in my own system. Upgraded and different brands I have tried do sound different and some are better than others ( I currently use Kimber Kable base series), but with the same cables, XLR versus RCA have not made a difference for me with my short runs.
The best way to solve this, IMO, is to do what I did, which is buy the same exact cables, one set with balanced XLR and the other set with RCA (WBT RCA in my case) and test them back and forth in your system in your room with your ears
Nice answer @l1975r however the question that the OP asked was about expensive versus cheaper XLRs.
It is dumb enough to suggest that the OP buy expensive XLRs, when they will not likely hear any difference, but adding in an expensive set of RCAs which the OP does not need, is certainly going a bit far (IMO).
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
