Anyone else feel like it’s the Wild Wild West?

It was easier with vinyl, as non of that extra multi-$1k increments were needed.

• No power conditioners
• No internet lines
• No fancy USBs
• Nothing extra.

This is a time of change. Ambiguity has been a fundamental tenant of high end audio since it’s inception, but given advances in the digital domain, the incredible proliferation of choices in individual choices of components and the joining of computing and audio… yeah, what a complex ambiguous mess.

I have pursued high end audio since the 70’s and adopted digital as soon as available… being an IT executive as my career… enabling me to afford and desire to investigate what is possible.

We are now at the tipping point when digital finally is equal to analog. But the complex choices available can make any given combination show analog to be better than digital, or visa versa. At the low end, analog still tends to exceed digital, as it does at the high end (think > $200K systems). But in the middle, it just depends on your choices.

My analog and digital have been equal for a couple years (see my systems… under my UserID). I recently upgraded my analog end and technically it is now more detailed. But the variation in recordings exceeds the sound quality of the media. So, unless You are an old fart with thousands of vinyl albums (like me)… I would put all my effort into digital streaming. If you have a total budget level of X. If digital streaming doesn’t exceed other alternatives now, it will in five years. Being in technology all my life… I assure you, plan for tomorrow… not today, or you are wasting a lot of money or time. Don’t waste your time on -laying disks either. 

So, if I had a budget system today, I would be laser focused on the best streaming system (with a tubed preamp and tubed amp) possible. This would put me on the lowest cost highest sound quality path possible.

Ok, I’ll start with a bittersweet post.  I recently bought an iFi Zen Steam (with iPowerX filter/power supply) to replace streaming from my iPad via a LavriCable adapter (big upgrade over the Apple Camera Adapter BTW) as per the suggestion of several experienced members here and they were 1000% right — the improvements of the Zen Stream were not at all subtle and has severely whet my appetite for what further improvements are possible.  Although the iFi Zen Stream seems to be a relative bargain for the sound quality per $, I have to say their customer support is ass.  There’s no phone support and you have to submit a support ticket and wait for a “support” person to respond via email, which in my case took a few days and resulted in a ridiculously sad recommendation that now requires me to send yet another “ticket” to which I’m sure I’ll get another inane response.  Sorry, but in this day and age this is absolutely archaic and unforgivable.  While I was very happy with the performance of the Zen Stream when it worked, if you’re not technically oriented I just can’t recommend this streamer as there’s basically no support if you encounter issues.  Very sad and unnecessary IMHO. 

I decided to just buy streamers and test them.  It was that easy.

I decided not to do it at all. It was even easier.

Wild west for sure, and so much ambiguity. This is best, no this is better, so confusing. The reality is everything changes constantly. I have streamed for awhile using a roku box and spotify. I have considered upgrading but I would need a dac, a ddc, a streamer, a manager app and god knows what else? Up until now it was always the fewer things between the source and the speaker was best, with streaming it's  the most is best? 

Upgrade advice gleaned from my personal experience in no particular order...

Fiber optic either all the way from the router or as a breaker

LPS when possible 

Ethernet switches with OXCO clock

DDC if front end is under $20K 

Avoid ROON, apps from dCS, Lumin, Aurender, Auralic and Innuos sound better

Good but not crazy expensive cables of higher gauge

Power conditioning usually passive or battery are best but some active can be good and reasonable like Puritan 

Finally I want to share a totally biased opinion of the DAC manufacturer Lampizator, I just bought and installed a Lampizator Baltic 3 in my system and it is the most discernible upgrade to my system ever, particularly with respect to timbre, harmonics and soundstage dimensions. If you are serious about getting your streaming to match or beat pure analog playback, a good tube DAC with tube rectification is in my opinion a must buy alongside the list of things above.

My setup gives excellent sound with the following:

• Synology NAS for file storage, Qobuz for more
• Roon running on a Nucleus-like NUC
• ASUS RT-AX86U router, TP-Link managed switch, wired Ethernet
• Auralic Aries G1 streamer to a good DAC and system
• Furman and Torus power conditioners/surge protectors
• Decent (Billy Bags) stands

What I don’t use are the following:

• Special power supplies or power cords on any of it
• Expensive interconnects or digital cables; no optical LAN here
• Vibration footers, pucks, Ethernet filters, gongs, crystals, DDC, etc.

Maybe those things could make the sound incrementally better. But it’s already so much better than most systems I hear, that I am not motivated. I'd rather listen to music. When I’ve tried tweaky stuff, it’s changed the sound less than moving my chair back or forward 6". So for me, all those tweaks are a nothing-burger.

IMO streaming has still not matured enough, it is certainly frustrating but also exciting times, there is a constant stream of new companies / new products that sound better than previous generation products. Also the price should be driven down as competition hots up but for the time being there is global shortage of ICs which keeps prices high and availability limited. I just hope we are not going to end up like the PC market that once a product is released it is obsolete within few months. At the same time the software is still lacking, perhaps ROON is the best effort on the software side, it could go like the PC market, several hardware makers and two-three operating systems / front end products.

First, I'd like to call out that we need another word in our common vocabulary or we need to distinguish between streaming local files vs. streaming from a service. More confusion has been created by opinions about "streaming" without specifying whether they're talking about apples or oranges. 

TOTH to @mike_in_nc for format...

My setup gives excellent sound with the following:

• Synology NAS for file storage connected to a TP-Link switch in a separate room, Qobuz for more
• Roon Core running on a SGC SonicTransporter connected to a TP-Link switch in a separate room
• ISP monopoly-chosen modem, Eero Mesh router in another room, wired Ethernet
• Sonore opticalRendu streamer/renderer as Roon endpoint & Sonore LPS to a good DAC and system
• Macbook, iPad & iPhone as Roon Remotes

What I currently believe:

• Much of the progress in digital playback has been advancements in two areas: 1)reducing jitter(most recent gear does this far better than a decade or so ago) 2)reducing noise(low powered single purpose devices running simple OS & fewer processes, cable improvements & conversion implementations, better power supplies all are valid tactics to fight noise
• it always comes down to the mastering of the music. the best SQ will almost always be in the native format of the recording be it analog or digital. better-mastered redbook will beat lesser-mastered hi-rez. Streaming from a service gives you unknown provenance, often volume-adjusted by the service(says Bernie Grundman), so blanket pronouncements are pretty meaningless when comparing to known local files, CDs or LPs. 
• Macs & PCs are facing an uphill battle vs. streamers regarding noise. OS, multiple non-audio processes, low quality PS etc. make getting good sound from a regular computer more costly and troublesome than it's worth.
• Running a NAS, server, NUC etc away from the audio system helps reduce noise a lot. Optical conversion and some fancy filtering strategies help fight noise too.
• Wifi doesn't sound as good or work as consistently as wired ethernet. Network stability is a PITA and a more stable network will save any user from plenty of headaches and heartache.
• For beginners, getting a decent DAC is first priority, but not the only priority if you want high quality sound. Anyone who says a Blusound Node is equal in SQ to better streamers is in denial or needs to listen to some better setups for comparison.
• As a vinyl LP lover, Roon's UX is significantly more enjoyable IMHE than other software. It's a game changer and provides benefits that increase musical engagement. For me, it's worth the trouble to setup my system to optimize Roon's SQ(e.g. dedicated core in another room). While SOTA level alternatives(e.g. DCS, Aurender) exist, their cost of hardware ownership and depreciation is a huge factor that keeps me away from a closed system. 

Cheers,

Spencer

You'll only become more confused over the course of this thread as nearly unlimited presentation of best subjective results with various equipment and schemes.

Believe this due to a technology in fast growth phase, expect much innovation in coming years. I'd expect more consolidation over the long run as some equipment and/or innovations are proven to be more universally superior. Until then, we're running real time experiment, sure innovators observing our, and their own test results, correlation to certain sound qualities being determined.

I see vast majority of streaming equipment as pretty disposable at this point, expect the churning to continue.

The best I've ever heard Dutch and Dutch 8c direct wired to switch coming from router. You're lost in a subjective wilderness,  getting incredible sound  in streaming is easy and exponentially cheaper than vinyl. The only flat earthers I see are those who deny physics. 

Hey folks, hundreds of millions of people around the world are streaming audio and that wouldn't be happening if streaming wasn't just as easy as pie. Easy peasy. That is the way it has traditionally been with audio, with many users taking the easy way out as we audiophiles dwell on details. For example, I'd wager that most cassette deck users didn't know what "Dolby level" was or how to align it, and that explains why so many people even now think Dolby NR isn't effective. It's the same with turntables and streaming and room correction and cabling and everything else in our little hobby - how far down the rabbit hole is your comfort zone?

For many audiophiles, optimizing setup details is all part of the fun. Maybe you're in the wrong hobby if you're not having fun.

It got me into modding for the first time. I have a PS Audio DirectStream DAC Sr. The designer of the DAC (Ted Smith) gave a bunch of tips about mods on their website forum. Other users shared pictures of steps they used to do the mods. One person even created boards that you can buy. I learned a lot about how the DAC works. It was quite fun taking the DAC apart and learning about the electronics.

My journey in digital music playback without using physical media (i.e., servers, streamers, and digital conversion) has consistently become ergonomically easier to implement as well as better sounding. Every new DAC and every music server upgrade has been a notable sonic improvement over the previous. As mentioned by @sbank , improvements have been achieved by reducing jitter and noise; primarily through improvements in processing, power supplies, and isolation. The sonic improvements have consistently moved toward a more natural sounding presentation, improved dynamic impact, and better resolution without an accompanying hard edge.

Considering that I have consistently provided a baseline of stable, damped support, clean power, and adequately constructed digital cables, the notable sonic improvements have all resulted from upgrading to better equipment (servers and DACs). None of the add-on tweaks, filters, etc. that I have tried have made what I could reliably call a consistent sonic improvement, especially compared to the improvements resulting from upgrading my digital playback equipment. I appreciate the dedicated manufacturers who have researched and implemented improvements in their equipment to bring us better sound.

@attila7

Streaming not need to be difficult. Think of it this way:

Turntable —> Phonostage —> Preamp

Streamer —> DAC —> Preamp

The two analogous.

No management software is required. Buy a Aurrender, Aurlic, Lumin, or budget Bluesound streamer. The first three higher quality.

If you really just want a simple solution you can get a Streamer / DAC. Although future upgrades will be harder. I recommend Aurrender. I have two after trying others. Plunk it down, connect. Download the app and start streaming. If you are not close to your router… just buy a wall wart wifi extender… plug it in next to your system and plug that in to your streamer… it will just work.

I am hardwired in, so much faster and morecrelisblecthan wifi. I also have a dac in my amp thru the optical or digital plugs. Is a standalone sac significantly better than the built in ones?

@attila7 

Most people think a stand alone DAC is better but I think it depends on the level of the component the DAC is in. The DAC in my Boulder 866 is fantastic. The one thing the stand alone does is let you try different ones until you find one that sounds best to you. 
 

Regards

Ron 

Good point Ron, I didn't think of it from that point. I was looking from the "junk" perspective. As I can't remove a built in dac the the current flows thru it, if I add on an outboard unit the current flows thru 2 dacs, everything in the signal path has an effect on the signal. Seems like additional "clutter"? It would seem that the best way would be individual standalone single function devices but that would require a wall of components, an end to end row of plug ins and miles of cable. So much for plugging a cd player into an amp to minimize signal degradation 🤣?

Just started streaming a couple of months ago. Bought a New Node and it wasn’t right and returned it. Got a second one and it works well. Last week had some issues with BluOS and the customer service was pretty good. They responded fairly quickly and took responsibility for the problem and emailed when it was fixed. I have no complaints with BlueSound, however I feel they are but a gateway drug for upgradeitis. 

I'm with @mike_in_nc  ."best" is not the object, musical enjoyment is. The choice of musical program makes far more difference than any "system enhancements."  He might find more refinement with better power supplies but no "need" for him to look.

Not surprised that an honest digital post here is overrun with 'phobes' from the 80's days of raw digital. 

Moving on.

For anyone who is feeling like it’s the Wild West and have confusion about certain aspects of digital, please always feel free to call or PM me with questions. I’m happy to chat without any pressure of making a sale. I have first hand experience with dozens of DACs, Streamer/servers, cables, switches, etc. I also have a background in technology and am still a technology consultant working for General Motors to date, so my understanding of hardware and software, connectivity, etc is pretty high.

I am now at a place where my reference digital surpasses the performance of my vinyl rig in about 90% of music. There are still some special pressings I prefer on vinyl. 

@soix 

I myself bought an ifi zen and ended up returning it within a couple weeks. It was so freaking difficult connecting to it with my android phone, I gave up. Glad to hear connecting it with a computer works for you. Anyway bought a bluesound NODE instead and I am not looking back. The bluos app works easily on android and the wifi signal is super strong in my house of stereo with a tp-link wifi extender. One thing I learned is using it strictly over wifi caused the bluos app not to recognize the bluesound player pretty much every day. So I would have to uninstall and reinstall the bluos app and it would recognize it again. Finally tried a bluejeans ethernet cable to connect the bluesound to the extender and it completely remedied the problem. Recognizes the blue sound immediately every time. Also just got the Teddy Pardo linear power supply specifically made for the bluesound, definite upgrade in clarity and space. Using a shunyata venom 14 pc for it. The rest of my connections is clearly laid out in my system. The things I feel I will not invest in is ethernet filters or any other kind of boxes before the streamer as the blackness is as good as with my Jay's cd player. There is absolutely zero interference in the signal. Probably the isolation of the house of stereo from the main house. Or just lucky. Anyway, just like you I am totally embracing the streaming technology, who knew.

@ronboco

You bring up a good point. A high end integrated can surpass mid-range separates, very true.

Each companies product lines are: Flagship = two box single function (like DAC, amp, or preamp), first level down… single box function, next level down… integrated of two functions… etc.

Why? Sharing space, power supplies, and functions compromises the performance. Also, upgrading… means the whole box when integrated… unless with swapable circuit boards (a huge sound compromise).

For folks that have limited funds (+95%) of audiophiles, every purchase is a compromise, with the expectation of an upgrade in the future. So, individual boxes at the highest level affordable is the way to go. Slowly and incrementally build a better system over time.

The big expensive integrated components are mostly for really well healed folks that want great sound and want it hidden and would never dedicate the thousands of hours over out lifetime an audiophile will to appreciate and assemble a system to cater to their desire for great sound.

It was easier with vinyl, as non of that extra multi-$1k increments were needed.

• No power conditioners

Maybe turntables don't need power conditioners per se, even if preamps and amps do, although they are certainly best with ripple free DC so there's no AC to contaminate to the low level signal.
 

I never made it past CDs and don't regret it.

All the best,
Nonoise

Hard to believe I've been streaming over 10 years now!  Started with a Squeezebox Duet that seemed like the greatest thing since sliced bread then Sonos and finally my Auralic Aries Mini. The learning curve in the early days was steep, particularly adding a NAS, but looking back I can't believe how easy it all actually was.

Most of the commotion in streaming is with getting a clean signal from your wifi router to your streamer and then to your DAC. If you want to experiment with switches, optical cables, etc., go ahead, it can be done cheaply. But if you don’t want to fool with that stuff just enjoy what you have (always a good idea) and wait for someone to come up with an easy and cheap solution. It will happen.

My digital streaming journey started in 2018 and in that relatively short amount of time there have surfaced many different ways to set up and optimize the signal. I'm on board with helping to identify which solution helps with individual goals and preferences. One approach could and should start with how much are you willing to spend as a beginner, intermediate, advanced or money is not a barrier hobbyist. Will you want continuous improvement buying better products over time or is this a one and done (if only it was that easy for audiophiles)? Then start unfolding options and identifying differences and SQ questions for tubes or SS, hard wired or wifi, will it be part of a HT system as a casual listening option or a two channel dedicated listening system. (Took me awhile in the beginning of my journey to turn my opinion on making a HT system capable of 2 channel HiFi. I admit I was stubbornly wrong. Never again will those thoughts return. Instead I now have a nice switch for AV inputs that carries the music signal on spdif then inputs into my dac for watching video with 2 channel. Works for me).

For me another important answer is how resolving is your system or do you plan to make it? This would have saved me an incredible amount of time and money. I have a large box of products that didn't work out. A graveyard of cables, switches, solutions for most here that did nothing in my system. I even have a couple of streamers in that box. I'm not claiming that upgrades for noise, jitter, cable quality, switches, etc. don't make a difference because they have clearly helped so many here but I've concluded my system resolution must reside below a threshold where some products make a difference. 

I only stream these days. Streaming Qobuz through Roon mostly because of it's simplicity but to me it also sounds good. Before using Roon I streamed straight from Qobuz which also sounds good. I have HQ Player and don't use it because I do not have a library of digital music. I have no need for a music server/storage device. Turntable is back in the box and vinyl sits on the shelf. The frustrating part is I want a streamer only that is better than my iMac and have trialed several now (latest was an A10 borrowed from a neighbor) without finding a SQ improvement, differences yes but not better. I am exhausted with this upgrade pursuit for now and will set aside finding a streamer for the next couple of years to see what new products/solutions the market brings.

Meanwhile, time to upgrade speakers.

Any source other than digital streaming is just nostalgia. A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point. If you are claiming otherwise you are not living in reality, that is just admiration to nostalgia.  Collecting CD or Vinyl is sort of useless fool’s errand. When you have access to 30 million songs, what is the point of accumulating physical Vinyl or CD etc. Young generations will not have luxury of having big houses and listening rooms. Speaker technology is advancing very rapidly, bookshelf speakers are becoming extremely good. Devialet for example has great product for younger generation. Our 200 lbs speakers will turn to relics of past or collectible items. Digital is future, adopt and move on.

I started with a Bluesound as it was simple to set up, had plenty of features, good software that was easy to use, included a decent DAC, and was inexpensive compared to other solutions. Once I better understood streaming and what I really wanted to do, I got an Aurrender and a high end DAC. Sold the Bluesound for a decent price easily.  So I agree with @ghdprentice.  Just sharing my journey. 

BTW, using the DAC in the bluesound renders the Teddy Pardo LPS useless. At least that's what I've been told. I am using the Gustard x26 pro DAC instead.

@drbay LOL!

@baylinor Thanks a lot for the tip of uninstalling the app to get it to recognize the streamer again.  I didn’t think of that, and all the suggestions I got involved rebooting everything starting with the router, but I’m traveling so that’s not an option right now.  I do have a TP-Link AC2600 and a Wireworld Starlight 8 Ethernet cable so once I get home I’ll be going hardwired from that and hopefully that’ll be the end of this digital horror show.  Argh. 

Yes, at first I did the same thing, running around to disconnect the router for 5 minutes, and the extender and the bluesound, as was recommended and it was a waste of time and really didn't even work. Uninstall and reinstall app can be done in a couple minutes from your chair and always worked. You are welcome, you helped me in the past too.

My conclusion after buying streamers and testing them is that the USBridge Signature with Shanti PS is awesome in  it's price range.  Innuous Zenith MKII ended up in my system.  

Those of you eschewing this technology will eventually wish you'd done it sooner.  $5K for a streamer and $10K for a DAC (might even be less) is not a lot compared to other components.

Jerry

@soix 

There are two long running threads on Headfi involving the Zen Stream with many helpful people that are both long time users and tech savvy in terms of it's operation and the software.  Once of the thread involves setup and reset procedures for the unit.  An iFi employee also participates in both threads.  You might find it helpful to go the the tips and tricks thread and follow the procedure for doing a full factory reset before switching from WiFi to hardwire. That way you start with a clean slate. 

Any source other than digital streaming is just nostalgia. A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point. If you are claiming otherwise you are not living in reality, that is just admiration to nostalgia.  Collecting CD or Vinyl is sort of useless fool’s errand. When you have access to 30 million songs, what is the point of accumulating physical Vinyl or CD etc. Young generations will not have luxury of having big houses and listening rooms. Speaker technology is advancing very rapidly, bookshelf speakers are becoming extremely good. Devialet for example has great product for younger generation. Our 200 lbs speakers will turn to relics of past or collectible items. Digital is future, adopt and move on.

Sounds like a lot of hot wind from someone who's using motivated reasoning to justify the cash he's poured into his system. Otherwise, why the white hot put down instead of just stating what you prefer?

30 million songs at my fingertips and I can care less for about 29,999,000 of what's out there and worrying and fretting about the size of some future generations room size? You should write copy for streaming services. 

As for myself, I only listen for my listening pleasure and could care less how others do theirs. Not here to impress others, but simply to share.

All the best,
Nonoise

Not sure what the new big deal about streaming is. I’ve been using streaming/audio servers for 15 years. Sold my $3000 Classe CD player 13 years ago because ripped music sounded better. It’s mostly been about the software that has been driving this. Amarra, Pure Music, Audirvana, lightning DS, and now Roon. Besides software, the dac is the most important piece of equipment to spend your money on. If people are using usb to the dac, then you really haven’t heard good digital sound. 

🍿😜

Uh oh.

@rbstehno 

I am using USB to DAC using JRiver. To my ears, it sounds very,very good. Would it sound 2000x better to my ears with a $2k streamer/DAC?

Best, eagledriver

@rbstehno But what about the hardware of the streamer/server? The software is only a small part of any streamer’s sound quality. Also, I would say that I have heard bigger improvements at times upgrading streamers/servers vs upgrading DACs. A high performance digital source is the only way digital can ever sound as natural, organic and resolving as the best analog sources.

Also, the cable used largely depends on the clocking of the system. If the DAC has a better clock than the streamer/server, use USB. But if the source has a better clock, use AES or Coax. Many people don’t realize how these different cables utilize the clocks of different components, and I’m happy to expand further on that as well as on master clocks if needed. 

“Although the iFi Zen Stream seems to be a relative bargain for the sound quality per $, I have to say their customer support is ass. ”

@soix 

That’s sad but expected at those bargain bin prices. That’s why it’s just as important to select a streamer / server that provides a good customer service support with a robust OS. It’s all part of the experience and many folks failed to see that when they think why pay for $2K streamer when I can get something for $500 or less. 

Having a really good DAC helps enormously. In my case it's an Esoteric N-01XD.

The N-01 is clocked with a Cybershaft OP21.

I mostly use it via Roon fed from my custom PC fitted with a JCAT USB Card XE and which is hardwired to my router. (A big improvement over wi-fi in my situation).

I occasionally play files directly into the N01 via memory stick. This requires the Esoteric App which is not great to be honest so I stick with Roon for most of my listening.

That combination delivers excellent sound quality - comparable to CD played from an Esoteric K-01XD on 44/16 files and better on true 24/96 files.

Regarding the above post, I think the point the original poster was making was that vinyl didn't/doesn't require any of the bulleted items.

holmz 1,489 posts 08-27-2022 at 10:04pm It was easier with vinyl, as non of that extra multi-$1k increments were needed. No power conditioners No internet lines No fancy USBs Nothing extra.

Yup, setting up vinyl is like plugging a toaster to a wall outlet, plug and play 😂

Look at the recent threads started by @holmz

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/tone-arm-plug-in-rca-cable

In reply to "No Power COnditioners" I must say, If you aren't running off of a battery then how are you stabilizing your Trun Tables motor? I know of one guy that has a table with three separate digital motors sank and is controlled via a computer. You can go as far as you want with any tech. just because vinal is Analogue doesn't mean it is free of voltage variations and current surges, power insufficiency, and any lack of overall control needs.

@drbay "A good streamer with a good external DAC would beat any vinyl or CD at any price point."

What streamer and DAC are you using and what were the CD and vinyl equipment you compared it to in the same system that allowed you to arrive at this de facto conclusion?

Personally, I recently had the opportunity to audition vinyl, CD and DAC with separate streamer in the same system. Speakers were Cessaro Horns, New Audio Frontiers amplification , vinyl TW Acustics , CD Neodio, DAC Tron Electric GT, streamer Aurrender. I’m not a vinyl guy but I gave the edge to the TW Acustics versus the Neodio and the Tron/Aurrender combo. It wasn’t a night and day level difference but it was there. As far as the Neodio and the Tron/Aurrender combination there was no "winner" they were both very engaging, no losing propositions , and simply a matter of sound taste preference - Neodio smoother, more romantic; the Tron/Aurrender leaning somewhat more towards transparency. The Neodio was my preference. Would there have been different outcomes with different gear, always possible. My point being I don’t think there’s a de facto statement that can be made about any of this.

To each their own @lalitk you chose to dump money in digit@holmz likes to spend his on vinyl. So what.

I enjoy all of it and prefer vinyl over digital. Is one bad and one good? Nope, just different.

You do you. No one is right or wrong.

Yup, setting up vinyl is like plugging a toaster to a wall outlet, plug and play 😂

Look at the recent threads started by @holmz