for a music first, streaming only, two channel system.......with 15k in pocket (can buy new or used) is the general rule of thumb 50/50 split on the budget?
do any all in one units at this price point compare to separates?
What choice did you land on at your respective budgets?
I've not had the greatest experience with streamers.....sound more similar than dissimilar to my admittedly non golden untrained ears
Try a used Sonore OpticalRendu for under $1500. This is a streamer and not a music server. I use a $500 DELL computer for my music server. That server is in my guest room under a bed. No monitor, keyboard, or mouse is used. The audio systems in my home are far away from this cheap music server (computer).
This will sound as good as what most will tell you to use a dedicated server/streamer next to your DAC. This is because you will use Fibre Optic in this setup.
I also use ROON to make my life easier.
For that $15K, you are looking at a potential Playback Designs DAC. Infact, that is my goal, but I will use a PlayBack Designs streamer that I got for $2k. It is also ROON READY and is identical to the Sonore OpticalRendu in what it is trying to do (when using the fibre Plink connector).
I would still be using the DELL computer in the guest room with the PlayBack Desings DAC. PBD sells a new streamer and server combo for $13k that you can keep next to your DAC. My cheaper combo is more financially palatable.
Well it’s your money and is totally up to you how to split between streamer and dac.
Some will tell you that all streamers sound the same and there’s no point to get out of the $500-$1200 range, some will tell to use a computer, some will say you need a good streamer because they make a difference.
Do your research and come up with a list of candidates then post to get some thoughts from real owners.
Very specific threads about digital are tough to keep on track. And yours is really vague. Good luck.
I think your focus should be on that the performance level of the streamer and DAC are on the same level and that their sonic characteristics are synergistic and provide what you’re looking for given your tastes and in the context of your system. However the price ratio works out after that is what it is. Personally I’d start with 50/50 and move up or down in price for each as necessary to get the performance level and sound characteristics you’re looking for. At that budget and however it ends up being split, I think you’re in for quite a treat. FWIW, and best of luck.
Every system is different. I recently compared a Mola Mola Tambaqui, DCS Bartok, and DCS Rossini APEX DAC to my Chord Dave DAC in my system. A couple of weeks after the DAC comparisons I had a home audition of a Antipodes Oladra music server. I heard more signicant differences between the Oladra and my Antipodes K21/ K41 combination than between the DACs that I listened to.
There are certainly no absolutes though @ricred1details an experience closer to my own.
Every DAC has a favored input type and file type. Use the wrong one and streamers may sound the same. Use the right one and you might enjoy the appreciable differences between the streamer.
A home audition is a must. And that audition should really include trying the various inputs on your DAC with high quality cables.
Personally, I think 50/50 is about right but there are so many factors it’s hard to draw any specific conclusions.
It would also help If you tell us what you’re considering and why, along with the rest of your equipment
At most, 70/30 in favor of the DAC. As Carlsbad stated, the DAC is the heart. Somehow, audiophiles have lost their way and are trying to convince themselves that we need $10K streamers. I'm running a $19K DAC with a $5K streamer and would not change anything except moving up to the next-level DAC within that product line. In my opinion, the streamer contributes, at most, 25% of the sound quality. A dealer with whom I'm acquainted has a very high-end home system but uses a Bluesound as his streamer. If this guy weren't such a straight shooter, I would have called BS on this one!
I have traveled multiples states in various audio clubs
a excellent product Denmark Audio Group
the AAvic 180,280 ,exceptions integrated amps and better then anything in their respective price classes ,vs all well known name brands around 8k and $11k
they all have 300-600wpc the differences are in. More active Tesla coils and a few other upgrades. ,nothing but cutting edge technologies and several other technologies in classD on a much higher level .the pass labs ,Hegel ,bryston ,Boulder was not that close and less $$ the dac board is extra very good detailed and rich , Ansuz thier cable line very good but not cheap, and the Xline Borresen Loudspeakers , class leading bargains .they are on m6 to do list ,depending on my budget later in the year, you truly need to hear them before giving a honest opinion.
streamer the Innuos line has some very good mini pulsar line under $2k and the optional upgrade LPS ,I would buy from linear tube audio for 1/2 off and I feel as good for $700.including a excellent DC cable .or buy the matching LPS but more $$.and innuos has a excellent interface better sounding then Roon.
Definitely an approximate 50 - 50 split. Both are critical. That gets you in the big league with the DAC.
If it were me I would get a used Audio Research DAC9 (there are lots of other great DACs, but the 9 is really natural musical and detailed) and a used Aurender N10 (unless you could find a used N20) if you really want a new one then an Aurrender N200.
Personally, I find a separate DAC and dedicated streamer provides better SQ than a streaming DAC. Also, I find greater improvements in SQ between streamer models than between DAC models. That said, I would still recommend a 50/50 split. At your price point there are many choices. For DACs, a used Mola Mola Tambaqui, Bricasti M1 SE, DCS Bartok, or Chord Dave can be paired with a new Aurender N200 or a used N10. I listed the DACs in order of my personal preference. You must audition. You always can go with a new streaming DAC. The new DCS Bartok will be above budget. You can also add the Grimm to list if you go for a new streaming DAC. But IMHO, as I mentioned before, I find better performance with separates.
I bought a dSC Bartök in early 2022 and was very happy with it. When the opportunity came to upgrade it to the Apex version, I waffled a bit but ultimately had it upgraded. After burn-in, the changes were not insignificant. I wanted to bring in a Mola Mola Tambaqui for comparison, but I’ve decided that I am satisfied for now. Used, the dCS Bartök Apex is within your budget. It does not require a separate streamer.
You definitely want a dedicated streamer, DAC and external linear power supply. I was surprised how much the sw improved across the spectrum when I replaced the internal switching power supply of my streamer with a Teddy Pardo LPS. There are so many choices and combinations that you’ll want to audition to really know what sounds best to YOUR ears. I don’t recommend using a computer as some suggest, mainly because they aren’t purpose built for music streaming and will add noise to the signal path due to their power supply and extraneous components you don’t need for music.
If you go separates a 50/50 % split is recommended. Good all-in-ones are the Tambaqui, Aurender A20 and Lumin P1 (I have a P1 and it has more features than the other 2 all-in-ones I mentioned, and its cheaper). One thing I've discovered recently is local high-rez file playback (in my case via a Lumin L2) beats streaming and CD playback easily, and gets CLOSE to my vinyl setup. IMO it won't be long before digital becomes indistinguishable from analog.
@ghdprenticejust a heads up on ARC DAC9.,.not all of them support Linux based streamers (when you use USB interface). Older DAC9 will require updating the USB card which is done by ARC and isn’t cheap.
I was looking into this DAC and that’s how I know. If you plan on using AES/EBU or SPDIF then there’s nothing to worry about.
OP keep in mind not all streamers are optimized for AES or SPDIF. Majority is optimized for USB out - they don’t feature an internal clock of the highest possible quality and this is where the DAC quality comes into play
I enjoy buying and switching gear and trying new things
I'm not a traditional audiophile by any stretch and don't quite see or maybe understand how you guys view gear...still trying to learn, …
Heyya @audiocanadaI’s say between jingling $15K in your pocket and your above predilections, you just might be the spitting image of an audiophile yet 😉
What do you know about how the two devices work, how they are assessed for sound “quality,” and so forth?
When you don’t perceive much difference between devices, there are more worldly, or at least disciplined, ways of going about learning than shedding a low 5-figs as a first step.
Is there a reason you wouldn’t want a one box solution….? The DCS Bartok is an amazing DAC. I’ve compared it to Nagra - Audio Research - Chord - Aurender - Moon - They are popping up used on Audiogon. As they retain a fair amount of thier value, maybe buy a Bartok and live with it a while…..??
it’s so subjective. This is just my journey. I currently have a Rossini Apex Player and somehow, it just keeps getting better…!
Forunder $7k the T+a 200 dac myself and many say by far best in class it beats dacs much more expensive . The innuous pulsar latest mk3 or 4 you can get forunder $6500 which is top notch and better interface then Roon sounding better
to not have to use Roon. Buy a decent ethernet switch Ansuz or innuos
and for sure quality Ethernet cables , and important buy a quality LPS power supply at the router ,the$5 junk wall wart that comes with the router- modem comboinduces a lot of noise , linear tube audio $700 on Audiogon by far the best in class and can go upto 8 amps routers are around 4amps look on the wall wart today most are 12 v and comes with a very high quality DC cable to router. Many people forget this ,a Big Mistake.
You should at least consider an Esoteric N-01XD for a one box solution. There are a couple used in your price range. In my comparisons I preferred this over dCS and Aurender units.
Lots of great options in the price range. My best advice, based on my experience, would be to go with separate dac and streamer.
If you are going with Roon I recommend and Dac that has Roon incorporated. For my first two iterations I went with I had a Roon Nucleus + with a Lumin D2 and decided I like it and upgraded my streamer to a Lumin T2. I am really impressed with the Lumin technology, value and sound.
I decided to overhaul my system and demoed everything I could get my hands on and landed on a Grimm MU1 Streamer with Roon built in and a Nagra Tube Dac. I demoed Aurender, MSB, NAD, Innuos, Lumin, on and on. If I did not get the Nagra I would have gone with the MSB. The Msb Discrete Dac is probably in your range and agree with @riie. Again, my best advice is to go with separates.
No one brought it up but I have been circling around the Aqua Audio Linq and the LA scala mkii optologic dac. I also use Roon and the Linq is supposed to have been designed to integrate with Roon. Has anyone had any experience with this combo?
As long as you pair LinQ with one of the available AQUA DAC’s via I2S, you will get the best sound from LinQ. I wanted to try LinQ in my system but its lack of USB support, proprietary I2S connectivity and max resolution upto DSD128 were the limiting features that prompted me to look elsewhere.
If do pursue LinQ, make sure to get it with HQPlayer Core + NAA module.
If I were swapping equipment in and out frequently, I wouldn't spend top dollar for something that isn't going to stay long-term. You could probably try out some of the newer all-in-one DAC/Streamer combos out there for not a huge investment to see if you want to commit to the streaming side of hi-fi. Then upgrade over time.
I honestly believe that the majority of the money should go towards the dac. The rest for the streamer.
I’m not sure of the synergy. Though from what I’ve read the Bricasti M1, in conjunction with the n150 or n200 (aurender) would probably suit most listeners well.
As other post have mentioned, Your source is the Dac, everything else is second fiddle.
Aurender certainly would be biased. However, they say the streamer is 30% and the DAC 70%.
I currently have a dCS Lina DAC and Lina Clock. I am not particularly happy with its built n streamer and am considering an Aurender W20SE. Although I did take note of Aurender W20s for sale used for very good price. Think the battery power supply which in in the W20 and the SE could be the most significant feature. Surely the SE must be better. But considering I don’t have an up line dCS, the older model could be just fine.
My pal, @ghdprentice, will be coming by to check out his W20SE with my Lina.
I hope that I am blown away. Just the Lina and clock with its built in streamer in my system produce a sound that is more detailed than my analog and sounds very good but I only listen to digital at night with the TV. With music it is, unfortunately, too much and tiring. My hope is that the W20SE will relax the sound and make it not only listenable but as enjoyable or better than my analog. I am 71 and still enjoy the ritual of the LP. But there will come a time when analog becomes difficult.
W20SE is the way to go if you can afford it. You can always upgrade the DAC (or not). The W20SE improved upon W20 in terms of treble without any sibilant effects, which was the case with W20.
The SE is also more analog-like overall, with greater dimensionality and space between instruments. Instrumental images are more solid, tangible, and three-dimensional, with a greater impression of body.
W20SE will excel further with a good USB or AES cable and equally good BNC clock cable.
Hope you enjoy the audition and company of @ghdprentice.
I’d go with a Denafrips Terminator II and a Sonore Signature Rendu SE. This will give you 100% fiber to the DAC cleaning everything beyond belief…. Also get a Sonore Sonic Transport which stay on your network all the time. That piece is Roon ready and flows seamlessly throughout the components. These (3) should be around $10k all in. Look them up if you have a minute to see. It did change my system night and day. You’ll also have money left to upgrade or change some cables and speaker wires
I can second Audioman58's recommendation to your inquiry.
The App for the streamer can provide a most certain opportunity for frustration if you don't go with a solid one. I'm a huge fan of the Sense App by Innuos. Make sure your streamer is hardwired with Ethernet-In. If you are going the Roon route, be certain your streamer is compatible. Not all are.
I use an Innuos LPS for my Pulse-mini, but I'm certain the Pulse and Pulsar have built in toroidal transformers to be certain your power is clean.
Personally would never spend more than $2k on a dac. Unless you’re so wealthy this is chump change. Dac tech changes so fast that DACs lose value faster than any other part of your system. Additional, the newer DACs crush the older DACs. I’d take a $600 smsl dac from 2024 over a $10000 dac from 2018 all day long.
The Audio Mirror Toubadour IV SE at $3500 with tube is the most musical DAC I've heard and hand made in the USA.. The T+A 200 at $7200 is also excellent....Good luck in your search.
OP not sure what the rest of your system is but for 17,500 retail the Grimm MU2 is gaining a lot of traction. Usually in a streamer/dac combo the streaming portion is the weak link. Grimm is known for their streamer (Mu1) and have added a world class Master Dac. The Preamp section rivals high end stand alones. You can add storage if you like.
One box ,power chord ,IC. Great chance it will sound better than any seperates you can put together.
You're getting some great information here, all of it good.....but all of it (including mine) is subjective based on our experiences. I'd spend more on the DAC, but still get a really nice streamer. I'd go 60/70% DAC and 30/40% streamer. I personally prefer separate DAC and streamer, that way you can always upgrade one component instead of having to upgrade a more expensive all-in-one system.
That split would still get you a great streamer (better if you're okay with a used streamer), and a great DAC. Personally I'd look at once of the great Aurender/Lumin/Innuous streamers, example you can get an Aurender N20 used for about $7,000 and that would leave $8,000 DAC
Or an Aurender N200 for about $4,000 used and that would leave $11,000 for a great DAC.
I mention Aurender, because the N20 and N200 are the only high end streamers that I have had in my system....along with an N10. I just have never had a Lumin or Innuous in my system, but by all reports they are great units as well.
As others already have mentioned, pay attention to connections and their preferences, and if possible try to audition a unit, and whether you want a streamer/server for storing files locally or just a streamer.
@audiocanada, do you have a trusted audio gear dealer somewhat near where you live? Because if you do that’s where I’d start my search instead of throwing out open ended queries here on Audiogon while dangling $15K as a teaser. As the old saying goes “a fool and his money are soon parted”. Sometimes to me it seems as if half of the contributors on these forums are audio gear retailers themselves and would love for everyone to buy multi-thousand dollar streamers. If you think you need a 30lbs shiny milled aluminum electrified box sitting in your house just to play tunes off of the internet then more power to you.
But if you’re really serious about putting together a system that lets you simply enjoy listening to the music that you like instead of wondering what piece of expensive audio kit “sounds better”, then you should start with some basic questions first. What kind of music do you enjoy? Are you going to be using speakers in a dedicated listening room, and do you use headphones only or a combination of the two? Because certain DACs in my experience make different speakers and headphones sound better than others. Which is my way of saying that getting the best DAC that suits your musical preferences is far more important than buying the latest server/streamer on today’s market. What DACs have you been able to demo for yourself?
Personally would never spend more than $2k on a dac. Unless you’re so wealthy this is chump change. Dac tech changes so fast that DACs lose value faster than any other part of your system. Additional, the newer DACs crush the older DACs. I’d take a $600 smsl dac from 2024 over a $10000 dac from 2018 all day long.
I do not see DACs changing that fast. I think once jitter was tamed, DAC designs seemed to have plateaued. Maybe the only exception is FPGA based DAC which are easy to update for the manufacturer.
That $2k threshold for an excellent DAC is something I agree on. My Benchmark DAC3B is less than $2k. While not the greatest DAC it can be made to sound very nice on a warm system. My other DAC is the $2400 Schitt Yggi+ LIM and that DAC is amazing. I really have no complaints about that one.
As I said earlier in a post, no need to spend a lot on a streamer, especially if you use fibre optic just before the DAC.
Buy a used Lumin X1 DAC/Streamer for around $6k used and you have a very good DAC and a tremendous streamer. Best of all you have Fibre Optic as streaming option on the X1. I owned that DAC, and it was really good, I like the new Yggi+ LIM a bit more than the X1, but the X1 comes with that amazing fibre streamer.
You can get a network switch with fibre support for $100 - $200. One of my network switches cost me about $120 when new. Today, it is selling for $500 - $600, I think because audiophiles wanted it. It sounds the same as my other $75 network switch with fibre. Point is that you do not need to spend too much to get the highest quality streaming.
BTW - for me the streaming section of the X1 is worth the $6k you see on the used market. That thing is so useful if you have a few DACs or something like the PeachTree GAN1 unit which needs SPDIF with volume.
if by “streamer” you just mean streamer, then I’d go no more than 10% on streamer. ($7500 on a streamer is a complete waste of $.) If you mean server and streamer, Maybe as much as, but no more than, 20-25%. In the former case, there are also a number of really good all in one streamer/dacs so you do not have to make that decision. For example, the Simaudio DACs are really fine streamers as well. It would be helpful if you gave more info about your use case. How do you stream now? Do you use Roon? What’s your current DAC?
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