Why the hate for mcintosh amps?

I haven’t tried the Wavvac gear. I heard that they are pretty darn good. I just can’t part ways with my Cary Audio SLP05 Preamp with the Ultimate Upgrade, Cardis Wiring and tube rolled. It is dual chassis. Love it. Here is a review of the unit.
https://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/906cary/index.html

As regards to the Boulder, mine put out heat but nothing like the Krell. My biggest issue was pairing with my speakers. I will let you know how the CH Precision A1.5 stacks up to Boulder. 

Also, more expensive never means better. Look at what Corvette is doing to the auto industry now with their mid engine vehicle or what Dodge Viper Acer did to 10 out of 13 track records, lol. You never know, lol!

Compared to CH Precision, Mac gear is dirt cheap.

“McIntosh are like elephants, nice to look at, but, I wouldn’t want to have one.”
W. C. Fields 

100% agree with the theme of enjoying what you have. It is hard to stay in the present long enough to appreciate the moment and audiophiles (myself included) seem to often have our feelers out for the next upgrade.

Love my Mac tube gear, sourced with VPI Aries 3, delivered with Magico A5's, supported by a B&W DB3D.

This is an interesting one, and perhaps I have an answer.

I think the "hate" comes from not understanding what McIntosh is best at.  That is room flexibility.  I've never had the luxury of having a dedicated stereo room, so I never could get optimum acoustics.

They even have test equipment at the plant to make their equipment more forgiving.  McIntosh amps and preamps work the best in unoptimized rooms.

Let me explain.  During my solid state days, I tried out a Rowland amp and compared it with my Mac amp at the store.  The Rowland sounded quite a bit better with perfect setup at the store.  I take it home and set it up in my living room--the Rowland sounded a lot worse.  My wife, who has better ears than me and could care less about the equipment, asked me what was wrong with the stereo.

I put the Mac amp back in the system.

Frankly, I don't even want a dedicated stereo room.  It is more fun to share the equipment with family and friends in a more comfortable setting.

I am sitting in my room with one of my systems, and it is wonderful.  Is it as good as the best setups I've heard?  No, but with the Jean Nantais turntable, it is very, very close.  And I can enjoy it while I am working, like right now.  I don't have to sit in a specialized room to enjoy it.

That is probably one reason McIntosh equipment is still quite popular.

I love my McIntosh integrated.  It sounds great to me, is built like a tank, looks fantastic and is made in America.  Of course it has meters, which for me, is a must.  If I didn't have it, I would have an Accuphase, Luxman or a Yamaha with meters. 
I must have meters.  I love them!

roxy544,641 

Ummmm, I didn’t buy it because it is more expensive. Not sure when you last check but McIntosh does make a $90,000.00 amplifier, smh. It’s called the McIntosh MC2kw. See what I mean folks. Homework please, homework, lol.

I see a ton of used Mcintosh amps for sale almost brand new. But very few brands like Luxman,  Esoteric etc on the used market.  I spoke to a dealer who said that buyers often trade  Mcintosh amps  for Luxman amps.

I just saw 2 weeks ago two Luxman 900u sell for barely over $11,000.00 each. That’s almost a 50% drop off for amplifiers especially being 19-20k new. Those amplifiers were less than a year old. I do like some of the Luxman amplifiers but I’m not interested in taking a beating from a manufacturer. At that point might as well buy used with warranty left. As far as Japanese high end equipment go, Accuphase is a great choice.

When they get their warranty in line with their prices, maybe.  
My last 3 Mac amps failed during warranty but real close to that date.
NEVER again

My Mac gear is 15 years old and the one failure is the power light on the C2300.

Built to Last.

I wonder how many people have really done direct A/B testing. Link to one below of McIntosh and D’Agostino, interesting outcome. 



https://youtu.be/td54mT0bGo4

@james633 

Thank you for linking that review video. Very interesting comments on the difference between those amps. I like the Audio Excellence guys and their product reviews. 
Cheers.

It's not hate or even just not liking their performance.  
They just don't sound good by today's standards.

I just purchased a new stereo setup today after a lengthy demo:  McIntosh MA8900 integrated amp, Sonus Faber Olympica Nova Vs, and a Roon Nucleus + streamer.  Very stoked on getting this order in and setup in our living room!

@bigtex22 Awesome - enjoy!.  Those speakers are wonderful and I grin every time I turn on my Mc stuff!

Yes, enjoy!  Always exciting when you get new gear.

@bigtex22 I love SF Speakers and have the Olympica Nova II's and love them.

I am not a MAC hater have owned a couple of their Integrated and they never stay around for long though. Last was the 252 and could not wait to get rid of it.

fsmrz18 said:
"They just don't sound good by today's standards."

Just out of curiosity, what are "today's standards"?

Interesting, McIntosh owners don’t feel the need to bash other gear. While owners of other gear seem to have to justify their purchase over McIntosh. Just an observation. 

Interesting, McIntosh owners don’t feel the need to bash other gear. While owners of other gear seem to have to justify their purchase over McIntosh. Just an observation.

This.

I noticed the same thing. No one likes the same things, or sounds.  That is what makes the world go round.  No need to bash.  I appreciate everyone’s opinion, and I know everyone feels strongly about their purchases,  but come on, we all have  the same passion.

I almost bought a MC275 a few years back but ended up going a class integrated SS with Luxman.... As for rolex analogy I buy my Rolex SS models from the dealer new wear them for a few years. And sell them at 40%more on average. My hulk cost £7k odd and they sell now for £16k after 1 year (luckily a discontinued model?)
Wish I was selling hifi for more when it goes.... 🤑

They have some clever new design innovations but accuracy will never beat some great automatics from grand seiko... But I think of rolex as jewelry... If I am doing DIY or sport or travel I don’t really wear them

Other than breaking my Little toe on a McIntosh amp( It jumped in front of me),  I don’t have anything against the brand.

JD

I find it hilarious people say McIntosh is uber expensive and for Dr's and lawyers.  If they knew much about the industry and prices of other high-end components they would definitely change their mind and find it very affordable in comparison.  I read a review comparing a MC452 vs a 30 or 40k amp (don't remember the name) and the Mac more than held its own. If you know or do some research I think McIntosh is a bargain overall backed up by its high resale value. Bash away I don't care but most haters really don't have a clue. 

Their business in Binghamton, NY is undergoing its largest expansion and they are doing more sales the past 2 years (AC) than ever before in their storied history. Haters gonna hate. 

stephens77023 

Great observation, you hit it right on the nail. So true, so true.

Why are so many posts about how much product McIntosh sells annually? Sales volume does not equal quality. If sales equaled quality, we would all own Beats headphones. Beats sells the most headphones, but a $20 set of ear buds outperform any Beats product I’ve ever heard.

@campaigner8 

Why are so many posts about how much product McIntosh sells annually?

I think the point is that so many people wouldn’t be buying $5K+ audio components if it wasn’t really good.  And the strong resale value further reinforces that.  People on this thread have called McIntosh “junk” and all sort of crazy stuff, which is just ridiculous.  As someone else pointed upthread, you don’t see Mc owners trashing other components, so why all the haters?

There is a market for everything….

I bet all stereo manufacturers sales are way up with people staying home during the pandemic, assuming they can meet the demand. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Some people have to have blue meters, regardless of SQ. I. would rather read, watch tv with the sound off or just listen instead of watching needles bounce. People with knowledge of science/physics understand that measuring something decreases its performance (in theory).

if you have to be visually entertained by your stereo, why not get a spectral analyzer (most come with equalizers that can be bypassed) and you can watch the colored lights bounce. Who cares if it degrades SQ- it’s entertaining.

sokogear634 posts
Did you not read my post about Luxman 900u amplifier, smh! It was less than a year old and sold for almost 50% less. That’s most gear these days. 10% bump-up on all used electronics doesn’t equate or hold water to whatever point you are trying to make to excuse your bashing of a brand, exclusively McIntosh. Stop hating or making yourself feel better proving to others you bought the right product and hoping it will have the same resale value as McIntosh. It won’t compare in resale. ( Sorry Luxman owners. I really do like their product and wouldn’t mine owning some of their gear. I just needed to state the obvious and point out the B.S). The fact is McIntosh has some of the highest Residue value out of 95% of the audio companies out there. Dan D'agostino is another company that does pretty well. Please enjoy what you have and let the McIntosh owners do so as well without haters, lol.

FWIW, my take on meters:
Meters on most home audio gear are almost never calibrated and more often than not mislead rather than inform. Some of the newer digital meters on the more expensive, esoteric gear might be better. They are distracting, add quite a bit of expense, and are amongst the most likely parts to fail first. Some people love them. McIntosh does them as tastefully as anyone. For those that want them; fine. I just wish manufacturers would offer a delete option with concurrent cost savings.

McIntosh and Rolex do have one thing in common...they make A LOT of items. Rolex makes around 800,000 watches per year (!) and sells 'em all, and McIntosh seems to be everywhere from Best Buy to your dentist's den. I collect automatic watches and don't buy Rolex items as there are more interesting things (to me anyway) elsewhere for less inflated prices...same as McIntosh...making the world safe for Schiit.

Postscript: Another objection I have to most meters is that in the vast majority of cases: what is actually being measured is arbitrarily limited by the manufacturer’s decisions, rather than what might actually be of interest to the consumer.

People hate things all the time. An extreme dislike or disgust of anything can probably be mentioned by anyone for their aversion to whatever. This forum is not indicative or inclusive of the many people who have owned a variety of products and post their impressions here, good or bad. My current amps are MC2301 300 watt tube amps, and by far, they provide me the most satisfying sound in all of the incarnations of amps I have owned or tested over the years. This includes; Bryston, Krell, Burmester, Pass Labs, etc. 

The Burmester amps, albeit, solid state, seem to retain the same models for years, as does McIntosh. The MC2301s came out in 2008…they must be selling enough of these to justify keeping the same amp in production over so many years. I actually lusted for giant Krell amps when I was younger and when I was not yet fully aware of the delicate intricacies of musical qualities that I seek out now. I was always the technical and specifications kind of person who looked at doubling watts, extreme heft with heats sinks,etc. Then, I matured. Lived in Europe 25 years and got a taste of plenty of Euro high end. After experiences and exposure to all of this stuff…I ended up with a McIntosh tube amp. Years ago, In a high end audio salon in Germany, the MC2301s were powering some Sonus Faber speakers with some Burmester amps hooked up to play as well on the same speakers. Interestingly, the German dealer said the MC2301 was at the time, an exotic American amplifier which competes nicely with the Burmesters. He said he would own both, and I agreed. They both sound good, but in different ways. That’s the thing, everyone has different tastes, I don’t necessarily like Krells like I used to, but, they do please some folks just as well as McIntosh pleases others. Just not the “few” who complain here. 
Now, I don’t drive a lambo or live in northern snow country, I drive M cars, Corvettes, and Shelby GT350s. My next car might be a used lambo, new Corvtte C8 Z06 convertible. Does that make me a snob? People in certain crowds would say, that’s all you got? While others would say cool, and that one person, would say, stuck up.  LMFAO at idiot comments insulting people who buy stuff because they can. 

I am by no means a McIntosh hater. If people like how they sound and represent a good resale value in case you want to get rid of them, more power to you.

I put them (maybe mistakenly) in the same category with the old B&O stuff. Cool looking, but you are of course paying for that. If you’re ok with that, that’s why they make chocolate and vanilla.

I’m not in favor of equipment that looks like it belongs in a physics lab, and I want the cost to go into maximizing SQ, not interior decorating. So long as it fits in my allotted space for the stereo and the boss doesn’t kick it out of her den, I really don’t care about the look.

@sokogear,

“So long as it fits in my allotted space for the stereo and the boss doesn’t kick it out of her den, I really don’t care about the look.”

That’s the truth. That is why I have a dedicated listening room, out of the way and out of sight. 

@audioquest4life I don’t have any other room where I could possibly expect the stereo to sound as good, and if I did, I am sure I would not be able to listen to it as much as I do now.

I am curious as to why you don’t list a Porsche. I had an awesome M3, and when BMW’s product cycle left them without a viable replacement for my E36, I drove a 911 for the heck of it. After I drove it, I bought a used one and told my wife that as long as I can get in and out of it, this is what I am going to drive. If I have more $, it will be a little nicer, if not, I’ll keep what I have. Mine is now 10 years old and I can’t think of an alternative I’d be as happy with, so this may be it.

Still have to deal with keeping my wife happy in her car that I drive more than her so I have input :-) into that decision which seems to keep coming up every 3-4 years. My car doesn’t experience precipitation except by completely unforecasted weather, so I need to be happy with her car as well for all the rainy and wintry conditions.

I guess those at the top of the food chain are always prone to get knocked down regardless of how well they perform. I have a Mac MC 275 paired with a C2700 and I’m totally satisfied not only with the product but also the company. I’m sure their are better and their are also much worse. When I had an issue with the pre-amp they referred me to a repair facility and it was taken care of quickly and without question. Trying to get support from other companies can become a blame game rather than concentrating on the problem at hand. What I have found from a performance standpoint is what your trying to drive can make a big difference. Under or overdriving can make or break any system. For my Harbeths the MC275 is more than adequate but I would definitely up my game plan if I was attempting to drive a pair of MOABs.

"I would definitely up my game plan if I was attempting to drive a pair of MOABs."

Why? They are very efficient, more so than the Harbeths.
 Rep

@sokogear,

”I am curious as to why you don’t list a Porsche.”, interesting that you ask. I have not entirely ruled out obtaining a GT3 in the future.
Real quick story. When I left active duty and picked up a consultation gig in Europe, I did put a downpayment on a GT3, circa 2011. Prior to that, the freaking GT3 was my nemesis at Hockenheim Formula 1 racetrack. I was a hobby race car driver with a Katceh racing modified C5 Z06 Corvette. I had the power, speed, and brakes to be highly competitive with the Turbos, GT3s, M cars, and the only car out of that bunch that played cat and mouse with me was the GT3, and coming from the factory like that, and with Cup tires, they were race ready.

Whereas, I added a slew of race stuff to make my car compete at the track…maybe about 35-40k in stuff. But, it was nearly a 575hp beast with a weight of 3100 pounds and acceleration was phenomenal. I could walk the line, live on the edge, dance the dance of tired screaming as I pushed into turns and twisties against the mighty GT3.


One day at Hockenheim, entering Sachs curve and approaching a GT3 just ahead of me, my rate of speed and my skills finally good enough, and tight factory corvette SCAA T1 race suspension, allowed me to pass the GT3. Well, I did it finally, after hundreds of laps, thousands of dollars.



Back to the GT3 order. I went to Singlefinden to a Diplomatic sales Porsche dealer, and sat in a GT3 and a Turbo, because I put my deposit on a GT3, but never sat in one. Well I was appalled at the seats, bare bones, stripped, and not worthy of a 100k plus car. My M Roadster and M3, had more comfortable seats. Yes, race seats means lack of comfort, but I was a hobby racer not full blown race car racer. So, I canceled the order. To this day, I still want to add a GT3 to the collection because of what they can do from the factory, but they are now way pricier and I could get a used Mclaren 520s, Lambo or Audi R8 for those prices. Due to recent health issues, back surgery (disc replacement on L5), I am reassessing what it means to me to drive a sports car, more comfort, and switching to, well, ahem DCT, argghh, I said it. So, that’s the story.


Back to amps, enjoy whatever you own, life is way to short to fret about what’s best, who is using what, what others think, and what things cost. Live life, said so many times…my favorite saying by Black Sabbath, Die Young, “So live for today Tomorrow never comes”. Once someone has experienced many things, gone out and seen the world, Lived outside the USA for extended years, your view of life and ones perception of things like cars and audio are vastly different than others who are not exposed to such things. For those who have such experiential life experiences, you know what I mean. BTW, Porsches are driven readily as daily drivers in Germany all the time, and M cars are a dime a dozen as well.
Ciao,

Audioquest4life

@roxy54
YesI agree MOABS are more efficient, 90dB@2.83V@1m as opposed to 86dB@2.83V@1m however my point was that driving 17 as opposed to 3 speakers will take quite a bit more power. To reach compatable efficiency (150W vs 900W max input) I would be sporting 400W MonoBlocks rather than a 75W 2 channel.

starwarrior,
I don't mean to be argumentative, but regardless of the number of drivers a speaker has, the efficiency is what it is. The MOAB was designed to be used with lower power tube amplifiers or higher power solid state amplifiers if the user chooses that, but it is not required.

@roxy54  It's all good, We really are talking cats and dogs here, the MOAB's are a completely different speaker design than Harbeths. 20Hz vs 40Hz right off the bat will require a significant power boost to run the woofs efficiently and each speaker will draw from whats available. The sweet spot for each brand has to be quite different. If I tried to drive them at the same power level as the MOAB's I would blow the voice coils across the room. Just sayin.

@audioquest4life - sorry to hear about your back surgery. Like I said, that’s why I said the 911 would be my car so long as I can get in and out of it. They guy who traded in my GTS was waiting for the next gen GT3 after they had to replace all the engines of the then current model. I like the GT3 but can’t live without a sunroof and don’t want to go back to 997.1, so the normally aspirated GTS is the best I can do. I need some semblance of practicality and reliability, something McLaren,R8 or Lambo (really an Audi) can’t provide. Same with Ferrari. Also, I am not looking for the flashiness of those cars - I prefer stealth- to the degree a 911 can be, considering that there are plenty of them driving around.

As far as stereos go, I am not a frequent trader- I’d rather improve what I have. Had my previous speakers for 25 years, turntable for 9 and my amp is now 16 and counting….At this point, I just like this site for the comedy and the seriousness of some of the posters. It’s not life and death.

Just a guess- that when said haters first heard Mac amplification they were paired with the wrong speakers (e.g. speakers that are warm and rich).  
Paired with neutral or even bright speakers Mac sounds fabulous.  

starwarrior,
I guess we're back to where we started. As I said, regardless of the size or number of woofers in the MOAB, they were designed to be driven more than adequately by lower power amplifiers, and many of their owners do just that. I myself own speakers which are large and have (2) 12 inch woofers each in a huge cabinet. I have driven them very successfully with an 8 watt tube amplifier, but also used higher power solid state.
I guess it's a case where we'll have to agree to disagree.    

Hardly ever heard them.  I imagine they sound good but they look so pretentions.  If you wear several rings and large gold chain they may fit in a lounge that has velvet paintings of cigar smoking, sombrero wearing, pistol toting Mexicans.

The only place I hear about  Macintosh haters is on this site.