LOVE the ROLEX analogies, though it falls slightly short in that different watches dont tell the time differently, as opposed to audio components which sound different....both Rolex and Mac have had and continue to have HUGE fan base and continue to sell well to a certain subset of consumers....."different strokes for different folks"....
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In response to : " ghasley " [ @atlanticstereoYour post indicates an innocent but erroneous opinion of the role that VC/PE firms serve to a business. My reply to your post below is intended only to provide perspective, not to throw shade your way. ] First thank you for your opinion but you are missing my point - My opinion is based on fact and end result - VC/PE is not a benefit to the " End User " You and Me ( me as a hobbyist not a business owner. My opinion is solely to warn the end user ( most who are on Audiogon is a hobbyist not a manufacturer or a AV dealer ) My opinion is simply a warning that VC/PE owned companies are not of the same build quality as they were originally built when the creator created them. As a culture the end user is misled into believing something is better because the new investor ( VC/PE ) is going to pour new funds into an existing product. I have seen first hand how VC/PC have destroyed AV brands - yes they recouped the investment it took to buy the company and in most cases made money for the investors or stock holders. Who lost ? You the end user because when you purchased the product during those VC/PE owned years either the product broke prematurely or it ends up on Audiogon for what ever reason. My mission statement is " Bringing the Passion back to Audio Video " I have been asked by many to write a review on how VC/PE has stolen that passion. Judging from the responses perhaps I should do that ? if you would like to actually see me interviewed check out https://onefirefly.com/learn/automation-unplugged/item/home-automation-podcast-episode-181-an-industry-q-a-with-tom-farinola and provide me your opinion ...Thanks Tom |
McIntosh and Rolex are an interesting analogy. They both are major brands that enable other companies to exist - are they the best? No - but when did they claim they were the best and others were inferior? Saying a Mc is warm, syrupy and bloated is a lazy statement:
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Like everything else in this world, there's no accounting for taste and, for some folks, it appears there are no bounds to ignorance, as well. If you always or nearly always prefer the sound signature of something other than a MAC amp... good for you! If you like or love MAC amps... good for you, too! This is about as productive a discussion as asking why so many people hate broccoli or asparagus. Does that make people who prefer peas over broccoli or string beans over asparagus any more or less intelligent than those who don't? Does it make them any better or worse judges of culinary gastronomy? Is it productive to debate which flavor ice cream is best and connotes who has better taste? Of course not! If everyone or nearly everyone liked the same things, all the time, it would be a pretty dull world... wouldn't it? There's good reason why so many famous professional musicians prefer MAC amps over anything else and I don't think that has anything to do with those beautiful blue VU meters. There's also good reason why so many people who can afford MAC amps choose them after hearing the competition. To argue that there is always something else that's "better" or sounds "better" than a MAC amp in fair A/B shoot-outs sounds a lot like that little kid in the neighborhood we all grew up with who always had something "better", bigger, newer, shinier or whatever, than anything you did. You know... that little kid who always had to be smarter? Threads like this expose those little kids! Chances are good that MAC amp owners have heard some of the competition heralded here by those kids with their snarky comments and obviously thought the competition didn't quite measure up. |
Mac amps holding their value??? so bought a multichannel mc amp a couple yrs ago. And now upgrading to large monos, maybe from mac. i can get abit below 50% of what i paid. Clearly, newer mac amps do not retain value and they are fricken heavy beasts. I see so many other credible amps, that are substantially lighter - why is this ??? |
The phrase "you get what you pay for" is not always accurate. In the case of Mac amps, the phrase is "you get what you overpay for". As far as quality and sound go, Mac amps are great. It's just that similar quality and similar sounding amps can be found for significantly less money. Some people don't care about how much they spend, but for me, it always has to be a consideration. |
@atlanticstereo VC/PE isn't the problem. The fact is that any time the founder/creative driving force of any organization departs the business, random outcomes happen. This isn't unique to high end audio. If the business fails, an argument could be made that the person didn't set the organization up for success through proper succession planning. In your post above, you cite Krell as an example of a firm damaged by PE investment. Someone else might make the case that Mr. D had run the firm he successfully built into the ground, necessitating HIM bringing in outside investors. Those investors, after prolonged financial underperformance, removed him. I have never owned Krell, never considered it. Its my understanding that some of their new amp designs are quite good and present a good value. I'm just stating that sometimes a business comes along and thrives because of a good idea or two AND good timing. If a business isn't viable, it isn't viable. Had there been great ideas in the pipeline when Mr. D left the firm, they probably would have done ok. The same goes for Cary Audio...Dennis Had left many years ago and I can't think of a product they make that is inspiring...it doesn't mean they aren't great or doing well as a business...heck there are examples too numerous to list of companies whose products we enjoyed where they weren't viable over the long term....there are others to the contrary. The method for capitalizing a business isn't the culprit, its the business model and the presence of proper capitalization. Congrats on being in the industry and congrats on what has likely been the best two years in your business. I assume you are in it to make a profit and its highly likely if you are are quite profitable, that you are engaged to a large degree in home theater. If I were in the business, which I am decidedly not, I would want to have McIntosh in my product line. What would you rather have? Sony? Yamaha? Marantz? Bryston? Arcam? McIntosh today is a far more diversified and viable business than at any time in their history. Purists and those heavily influenced by nostalgia forget how close McIntosh was to ceasing to exist. Dark days indeed when Clarion purchased them for pennies but there was enough corporate culture internally to survive through the years to come out the other side with the possibility of nurturing their mojo. McIntosh makes good gear, it isn't to my taste, but they make fine products. I wouldn't invest in a company that caters to me, that's too narrow of a market...but I do enjoy what I enjoy. If I buy a Shindo or a Leben or a Devore product and they pass away, sell or change their business direction either by choice or by acquisition, that's the way it goes. Its just an audio system. My final point is that you describe some mystical obligation to the consumer by the manufacturer. That's unreasonable. Buy what you like, you get it and then you either enjoy it or you don't. There is no perpetual obligation on the part of a manufacturer to evolve in the manner you determine or think best, thats for the owners of the company to determine and the obligation of the retailer/consumer to choose accordingly thereafter. The short answer though, if you are a retailer and you aren't the McIntosh dealer, you have to work a little harder. Peace. |
No hate for modern Mc amps. I love the meters. :-) What distinguishes them on the rare cases when I have heard them is the treble and that is why I feel they are not appropriate for me or my speakers. Especially in combination with say B&W or Triangle ... oh I could not listen to that for long. Their speakers though, are they freaking kidding me?? Best, Erik |
70 years in business, Mac must be doing something right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Heed closely the words of the poet If you think today is the same as yesterday,, you are only fooling yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE |
Ok lets forget about Mcintosh and just say " all audio is subjective for the listener " Personally I feel the finest reproduction of Audio is Steinway Lyngdorf but that's another topic for discussion that I would absolutely love to go toe to toe with anyone. Moving on - I think conversation and reading various opinions is not only fun but beneficial assuming you have an open mind and don't take what is being said personally. I will open a conversation later specifically relating to PE and the AV Industry. I would appreciate your feedback as it will fuel my newsletter and possibly my podcast - Thanks Tom |
@atlanticstereo You stated that you are a dealer, which to your great credit you havent attempted to hide. I’ll take that at face value and good for you. If you are in fact a dealer though, now that you’ve listed your opinion of "the finest" product, Steinway-Lyngdorf, that you would "personally" go "toe-to-toe" about I now wonder if you might just happen to be a dealer for that particular product? If so, ironically, you should probably disclose that. Not that I would be a candidate either way. I apologize in the event you are not a dealer for Steinway-Lyngdorf, however, I’m not even a little bit sorry if you are a dealer for their products and did not disclose it. It might come as a surprise to you as well that, if memory serves, Steinway is owned by a VC/PE firm controlled by John Paulson. I also think (I’m not certain) that Lyngdorf is privately held by Peter L. along with investors, which again, could be properly categorized as VC/PE. And finally, I prefer not to participate with your newsletter, podcast, twitter, instagram, reddit, facebook, etc. Especially if you are a dealer for the product in question and failed to disclose same. |
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I wasn't trying to sell SL only making a comment. Yes I am a SL dealer and a SL client. SL is the only audio equipment I will ever own for the rest of my life but like I mentioned. When I post a comment specifically discussing SL and other AV products I would absolutely disclose I was a dealer. I was more speaking to you directly than the forum. I specifically asked SL if PE was involved in their company and the answer absolutely " NO " But I will double check ? Perhaps PE is involved with S&S ? Thanks for the heads up ....T |
1978 I became an audio enthusiast I owned the Mac C28 preamp and the 2105 power amp. I met a guy which was 100% blind we became friends low and behold he was an audiophile; I invited him over to listen to my system, within 5 minutes he said that`s enough what I hear is DARK AND VALE VERY POOR LEADING EDGE at the time I didn`t understand. He began tutoring me in how to and what to listen for what`s good and bad as far as amplification is concern. He also made a suggestion I should get rid of the Bose speakers 901`s series 2`s, out went the Mac and the Bose speakers In came Audio Research SP3a preamp, David Hafler mono blocks and Maggies Typany1D`s. For about 40 yrs. its been Audio research and Maggies, 3 month ago I up graded to the Pass Labs XP30 preamp, X 350 power amp and held on to the Maggie 3.6`s. My next upgrade will hopefully be speakers the 20.7 Maggies. |
I owned a lot of audio equipment and still have a few pieces including McIntosh. I liked them and always liked the sound. It's on the warmer side for sure and not as open as some other gears but very musical and good for long listen without fatigue. Currently in my system I rotate the following preamp: McIntosh C38 Mark Levinson No 26 Krell KRC-2 Inex Innovation fiber optics preamp Marantz 7 They all perform differently and C38 compared to the rest is the most non-fatigue one. Quite musical. As for the power amp I rotate among: McIntosh MC7100 Bryston 4BST Canary Audio CA300 mono blocks Sonic Frontiers Power 2 Threshold CAS2 Monoblocks Inex Innovation 8W power amp I find McIntosh right up there with the rest of the them. In my past, I've owned McIntosh MC225, MC240, MC275, MC250, MC2100, MC2120, C504, C20, C8, MC20W2 all of them are very good. This is comparing to the other amps I had such as Spectral DMA50, Audio Research Classic 120, Classic 30, D125, M100, D100, D76 which I owned and also Krell KSA80B, Counterpoint SA20, PS Audio P200, GAS Ampzilla, New York Audio Lab Moscode300, DB6M Conrad Johnson Premier 7, Premier 3, Premier 2, PV6, MV75, Marantz 8, VTL Deluxe 120, First Sound Preamp, VTL Ultimate and among other things that I've owned. I can say that McIntosh is as good as anything I owned and heard and they are lovely. But the draw back is not as open or clear and not as attacking compared to the list of the amps I had. |
I have never heard a McIntosh Amp in action, but who ever designed this amp (just on looks) must of been back in the 40’s or 50’s that is the impression it gives to me. And the design seems to stay the same in all models...? That sort of implies the type of audiophiles/ music lovers it seems to attract. Just on looks its either dislike or love for the amp. If I had the money and was forced to buy an amp with VU meters, bass, treble knobs and all extra’s which come with it it would definitely be the Luxman amps. Its just sheer pleasure to look at it and most probably a lovely precision feel to the use of its knobs, volume control etc...A tasteful silver look not purple/blue with red letters...! |
McIntosh was always known for being on the cutting edge. And if you have the money for their top end equipment I believe they still are. That new tube ,solid state amp combo is unbelievable . But you’re also paying for the resale value because they are nice to look at. And have a cult following. You can buy a McIntosh piece of gear and five years from now you can sell it for the same price. Nothing to complain about there. Everything else drops about 50% in value. I’ve owned two pieces of McIntosh gear and sold them within a day or two. |
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@roxy54 , 50 years is about the amount of time that transistors have been around as perhaps the most rugged of output devices. Other than one particular, rather unique First Watt ss amp that uses autoformers at the input rather than the output al la McIntosh, I know of no other ss amp manufacturer that uses autoformers. Are we to understand that all others have been wrong for the past 50 years? |
I think the critical comments are coming from people who do not like the sound of Mac amps that have the big autoformers, which make the sound smoother than what they prefer. I have a McIntosh MA252 integrated amplifier. It is solid state with a tubes preamplifier. It does not have the big autoformer transformer that Mac solid state is known for. Its damping is rated at 200, and it has good bass control. I added Mullard NOS tubes. I just added a Cardas Clear USB cable a few days ago and a Pangea digital coax cable, which has Cardas copper, last week. A few weeks ago I added Pangea power cables for my DAC, reclocker and amplifier. My system now sounds amazing, whereas prior to adding these cables it was a bit edgy or harsh with a few songs. The new cables eliminated the problems with bad recordings and improved the sound of the good ones. I will also note that I added about $3,500 in room treatment with skyline diffusors and absorption. So, it took me a while to dial in my system, but I’ve got it now to the point that I am blown away by how good it sounds. It has even exceeded what I was hoping for. It is lively but never too bright, and it sounds full but not slow. Bells, chimes, cymbals, and brass are so beautiful that I shake my head and marvel at what I am hearing, like right now as I write this as I listen to "Alleycat" by Nucleus from its 1976 UK tour. Drum strikes have solid impact without going over the top. Acoustic instruments are sublime. Tone is exquisite. Clarity is stunning. Out of the box, the McIntosh MA252 was good but a bit lacking at times, but I find it to be consistently very good now. |
@roxy54 , Your points have merit. But, the only practical advantages were over 50 years ago when in the early days of ss amplification transistors weren’t very durable. Those days are long gone. Autoformers in ss amps for the last 50 years only serve to compromise one of the advantages of ss amps with typical dynamic speakers, that of adapting power requirements with impedance load. I wouldn’t dream of arguing with your preference,. But “in my humble opinion” such an application is just plain stupid. |
Unsound, you said: "Autoformers in ss amps for the last 50 years only serve to compromise one of the advantages of ss amps with typical dynamic speakers, that of adapting power requirements with impedance load." I didn't understand that comment, as the autoformers do exactly that; that is, they allow the amplifier to deliver full power into any impedance. |
It’s funny how using the right words brings out the ones those words attract the most, the haters. I’ve owned more high end amplifiers than most and currently own a pr of Mcintosh MC611 monos. They’re one of the best amps I’ve ever owned. For all those haters “stop hating everything you don’t like”. As for the original thread post. Why don’t people like Mcintosh. What makes you think people don’t like Mcintosh? |
