Why the hate for mcintosh amps?

Are mc611 monos good.  Thinking of getting mc2301 tube amp monos.  Good idea?  
 

being used for a pair of b&w 800 series speakers.

Definitely agree it should sound good without NOS tubes but if it sounds better with them and they are priced reasonably then why not.  Improved the sound of several preamps and amps replacing the stock tubes.  Primaluna is one example but I won't pay ridiculous prices for NOS. Have noticed in the past couple years certain NOS tubes have become extremely rare. 

@samzx12  

I can change the tube,there are several brands on the market, prices is different,and I will choose the good one I think.but I will never ever choose the NOS tube the price is  completed different from the new tube on the market. For example,300% or 400%.

If the amplifier get the good sound depend on such  expensive tube, it means the design has problem.

Runwell almost all tube manufacturers use cheaper tubes. Doesn't mean they sound bad but it's known that NOS tubes usually sound better but too expensive for manufacturers to use them. It's all about profit. 

@femoore12  I am the opposite. I use tube amplifier,and I definitely do not like the amplifier depending on specific NOS tube.

In my view, if that is the case, it means the design of the amplifier is not very good. Amplifiers should run good with stardard bulk tube we have right now. That is good design.

If you haven't heard a McIntosh pre-amp or amp using NOS Mullards and Telefunken tubes, then I highly recommend you do if you have the opportunity. I just updated the signal tubes in my 275 and 2700 with these two and replaced the power tubes with Gold Lion. The clarity and separation of instruments and vocals in the music was worth the cash. The Telefunken added a nice little sparkle in the top that was not quite there before. The bass is also a lot more defined with the new power tubes. 

I keep getting farther down the rabbit hole.

You don’t need to bias any of the older Mcintosh valve amps unless you rebuild the power supply. Then only once. You can replace the little pot they use to set the bias with a fixed resistor. You measure the value of the pot and match the resistor. I install a better pot and then I can change it if I want.. I seldom do..

The only thing better than Mac is another Mac.. The only start to finish system made. Down to the wall plug. There is not a single component you need to go outside of Mac for, including speakers. I made their speakers work well with little change. I’ve yet to find a speaker that makes me completely happy other than my own contraptions anyway. I like a few of Macs LS speakers.

50% of the sound is the room anyways. A ground up approach, Electrical, Room, Subs, and everything else. 40-45% at the most is split between, the recording, the source player, amplification, main speakers (up to 3) and cabling. The actual power amps if given a number 15-20% maybe.

The one thing folks seem to forget. The equipment’s job is to make ME happy not anything else. The reason I LOVE Mac it is very neutral, and true to the WAY the music was put to the media. The great part is, I may not like the way it sounds, but with a Mac, I can change any of it to make ME, not YOU happy. AND Certainly not "rules set forth by rooky audiophilers". Like no tone control, silliest thing I’ve ever heard.

They ALL started with tone control and then CHEAPED out and removed it on a lot of equipment. WHY? Because they are CHEAP that’s why. It’s not easy or inexpensive to design a good tone control system like Macs with VARIABLE loudness, not fixed. It’s EASY to leave it out. It’s hard to put it in. You pay for what you get. You open any NEW Mac what do you see? Vishay, WIMA, silver traces on the IC boards, Glass, two part chassis, plated, powder coated. They are not cheap to make or design..

Mac has seen a LOT of companies come and go. My C2500 was just fixed, guess how much? I have to pick it up. Go ahead guess, blown right channel, cable drop blew a 20 amp house fuse..

Happy new year.

.Regards

There are a number of audiophiles that think equipment cannot be good if it is popular. Their loss. 

Very good question. I’ve used McIntosh amplification, pre and power, to win more ‘best sound at show’ awards at venues like Rocky Mountain, AXPONA, and T.H.E. Show than I can count. I also use them in product development in my reference system. They’re dead neutral and bulletproof. I think what a lot of guys don’t understand, it’s the system set up, not magic shiny boxes, that deliver great sound. Audiophiles on the never ending merry-go-round are constantly looking for the next magic box that will somehow transform their stereo; I call this affliction, Shiny Box Syndrome.

Yours in music,

Ted Denney III

Lead Designer/CEO Synergistic Research Inc.

Whatever that means...

Cosmetically the WWE of electronics!!!

@tzh21y  I am wondering Mc275 has auto bias or not?

Instead of green light, maybe purple or red, not pink or yellow.   
like exit lights, cant turn off green.  
 

what if i have green vision allergies, its possible.  

To the crux of the discussion, well said mhwilliford! After all the superflous BS, you nailed it!

"Their design language is hideous."

Beauty is in the eye.......

 

What does design language mean? Maybe the font of their logo?

"Their design language is hideous." 

And your written language is pretentious.

@blackhawkskid6 enlighten us?

 

Their design language is hideous. 

I listened to so many amps before buying my MC275.  It does everything right that is important to me when i am listening. I wasted a lot of time and money on other stuff.  I guess i would have never known unless I did that. 

I think my restored MC30's are so damn cool looking they even sound great when  they are turned off.

 

@emergingsoul It depends, Many consider McIntosh to be pricey Mif-Fi. I do not.They have a house sound that they cling to, and if you enjoy it that is all that matters. Build quality wise, it top tier and you be able to easily find a dealer in many parts of the country.

Even so, before investing in the Mac listen to a few other things as well. Then develop your preferences and know what you are getting into. Mac Tube pre-amps are pretty neutral and have a sound akin to a SS amp. If able try and audition Preamps in both camps.SS realm try a Hegel, Michi, Classe,Pass Labs, Mark Levingson, then move to Tube designs from Cary, Rogue, Conrad Johnson, BAT, VTL, Prima Luna, ARC, Zesto Audio are a few suggestions, This list can be paired down by what is available in your area, Whatever you do do not buy the Mac without hearing what else is out there. Also do not get hung up as to whether or not the power supply is separate. Advantages yes, but there are single chassis designs that have great isolation as well. The BAT I am auditioning now and the Zesto Audio I auditioned before have built in ones it are still very quiet. Which is the main advantage that a separate power supply offers in a component.

I suggest your primary goal should be finding something you enjoy listening to first.

 

Seems the new, yet to be shipped c12000 preamp is inexpensive/cheap ($16k) compared to other 2 chasis preamps. Is this high end?

would prefer a linestage. Ss vs tube feature is cool.

better choices out there?

I’m curious how many folks have owned McIntosh amps and ‘upgraded’ to another brand.  
 

When I think of my hobbies (or more accurate vices) -motorcycles, cars, wine, beer and whiskey. My experiences impacted future buying decisions. 
 

I thought my NAD system was my first high end audio system. And upgraded to McIntosh the sound was different and from my point of view improved.  
 

I know listen differently and auditioning for an upgrade will include alternatives because l believe I value different characteristics than when I bought NAD and McIntosh. Effectively McIntosh was valuable due to my enjoyment and growth. 

@ walkertm

Thanks for your high comment on my listen experience. I just told what I think for my listening,and I do think it is important that we dare to say the real feeling,no matter which brand or which specific amp. As a forums,lot of people get the information when they do not have the chance to demo listen due to some limitation. So Do not demand it is 100% correct but your true feeling. Listening is a subjective activity and you do have different opinions with others,it is normal,and when you listen more and more,you finally find your personal taste,where you can enjoy the music. and different people in the different position of the whole procedure,and when we share the opinion without business motivation is  very helpful.

 

 

@runwell

You did answer my question and gave me a little more insight as to where you are coming from. Thank you.  I would agree that Macs are aggressive in the bass. Not so much on the 275 but I do hear it on the SS amps. I also have heard amps that are faster and tighter than they are. So, I think I get why they would not be to your liking. However, as with any amp pair it with right speaker and it weakness can become a strength.

I listen to the 452 mated with a pair of B&W 801’s I really liked the sound from that pairing. I also enjoyed them with Maggie’s and Focal’s too. As with all things audio though, this is a matter of my personal taste.

As to realism, I never found any brand that reproduced a recording to the point it fooled me into thinking I was present in the studio or at a concert. I actually abandoned that goal a while ago and focus on things that I find fun to listen to versus overall accuracy. Greatly appreciate you sharing a bit of yours audio journey with us, and providing a list of the equipment you are using. Deeply respect your view on ARC and the differences you are hearing. What you achieved with your system is no small feat.  I think synergy at the level you obtained is a goal lot of us are hard pressed to achieve.  I am also look at the Ref 6SE as a replacement for an aging but still working Sonic Frontiers Line One. I auditioned it for about three weeks and loved what it could do. 

@runwell 

 

”Are you working with McIntosh”

No, why would I? I will work with a dealer, of my choosing,  if I choose to get the MC3500. 
 

@audioquest4life 

"In fact, I am waiting on test reports of the newly announced MC3500 to see how these new 350 watt plus tube amps compare to the MC2301s."

   Are you working with McIntosh someway? It is my question.

@runwell 

      “Congratulation! I can feel your happiness!  What is  your preamplifier?  The pre in your system must be well matched.”

My preamp is the Octave Jubilee from Germany which costs substantially more than the Mc2301s. I listened to BAT and Audio Research in Europe and they did not persuade me that I was in front of a stage as much as the combination that I have now.

 

Regardless, at this level, it is a matter of taste and listening interpretations, and your interpretation is probably vastly different from many others, as mine is as well. Therefore, we will never come to a 100% Agreement on what the sound we seek and hear is better than what others say. All I can say, is that, I am more than happy and enjoy what I have. Now, going even further, no other amps have persuaded me to stick with the same brand as McIntosh has. Combined with the speakers I don’t need to seek out any other brand amps or am even curious because it is a waste of my time. I am still curious so will not ever experiment if the opportunity presents itself, but I am not going out of my way to make it happen.
 

In fact, I am waiting on test reports of the newly announced MC3500 to see how these new 350 watt plus tube amps compare to the MC2301s. I suggest you stick with what you like and stop brandishing brands as poorly made, when in fact, I can say the same about other speakers and amp combinations. The value is in the execution of the combined equipment and the summation of that equates the outputs, some good or bad, according to certain people. Live and learn. 

@roxy54 

            I used a lot of different amps before,and bought brand new McIntosh MC352 and C2300,and use it for more than 5 years. 

           Then I get a chance to demo listen Audio Research, and then you know I become Audio Research fans.  Audio Research let me understand the speed of sound is top  important, more important then the flavor.

            Right now I use REF 75SE with LS25 MKI, which I will soon upgrade to 6SE.

 

 

@audioquest4life 

      Congratulation! I can feel your happiness!  What is  your preamplifier?  The pre in your system must be well matched.

      I do not hear your combo. But due to my long listening history ,I can feel the sound you heard a little bit. 

       The McIntosh amp is slow for sure in whatever condition, but for your system, it relatively can not felt  more due to the speaker is easy to propel and the amp is so powerful. 

          If you do the comparation ,maybe in another exhitbition you might find the chance, The speedy system will be quite differently.

          If you can,get any Audio research tube amplifier  home to try your same speakers, you will feel the different which is not small.

          Then you make another judge which one is the live soundstage?  I wish to hear you soon.

 

 

You didn't answer my question runwell. What amp are you using? 

@runwell 

 

I really get your sentiment regarding an amp being able to reproduce that live your are there feeling. I have had my share of SS amps over the years and some Euro tube amps as well. These were all mated to B&W 800s. 

 

When I purchased my McIntosh MC2301s (300 watt tubes) and hooked them up to my B&Ws the sound took a leap forward. Bass was way better and the rest of the sound spectrum was also way better. When I sold the B&W 800s and demoed them with the MC2301s, the buyer thought I had subs turned on as the 2301s were easily able to drive the bass drivers. 
 

But, ignorance is bliss. I did not have this live stage feeling with the B&Ws mated to to the 2301s. After hearing the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T 1.5 reference field coil speakers, 101db efficiency, 16 ohms, 18” downward paper cone deep bass, 15” forward facing paper cone mid bass, beryllium tweeter, and Edgar designed horn, at the Capital Audio Fest, wow, I heard it…the live sound and musician in room or you at close on stage feeling. I had been on a hunt for a few years to replace the B&Ws, and found the sound that you mentioned and that of which I never experienced before.

I now own the Classic Audio  T 1.5 reference speakers. Mated to my MC2301 tube amps, it is well, like listening to a live music event, exhibiting that live you are there sensation.  Recording after recording sounds so much different and much better due to the pairing of these speakers with the McIntosh MC2301 amps that I listen into the late evening and hear my records sound anew. The spatial and acoustic space is so mesmerizing that it seems enchanting to me. To sit back and close your eyes and hear the musician or group in the recording venue or on a stage in your listening room is such an incredible feeling. One, that sadly, many audiophiles never experience to its fullest extent. Myself included with all of my gear over the years. 

Bottom line, this live sound feeling  was achieved due to better speaker amp matching which gave me this live you are or they are there feeling. I have never heard it before on a home stereo and now that I have, it does emulate what I hear at live venues, that is why I get your point. Once you experience that type of sound, you will have a new reference point in terms of music playback. But, I would not categorically stereotype McIntosh as not having the ability to convey this type of live feeling as the 2301s can do that in spades when matched with the Classic Audio T 1.5 reference speakers. Therefore, it seems amps should be matched properly with a speaker in order to play optimally or else, any amp, will sound like it has flabby bass. That’s been my experience after 35 years of listening. 

@walkertm  I believe McIntosh uses output transformers (like tubes) on some or all of its SS amps to give it that “house” sound. So it will take longer for a SS McIntosh amp to break in due to the output transformers. 

@walkertm,

       Well,it is somewhat complicated. If you want to know the detail,I can explain.

There is live sound performance and amplifier re-produced sound.

so what is the standard of good amplifier?  Original,if the amplifier can make the soundstage as near as live,it is the good,but it is also very difficult.

so  let see the main points of the live soundstage we have,

With live soundstage , we have

speed,

high,mid,bass balance,

3d space ,

passion,

texture,

flavour,and more.

There are bunch of amplifiers we love and still not near to the live soundstage. Why?  The bottom line is the speed.  If the sound is very slow,it must be strong flavor to grip the listener ----- that are the old school tube  amplifier did.

Another line is the high,mid,bass balance

This brand is just have fat bass and slow. they just break the point 1 and point 2.

and left flavor only. Unless you are gripped by the their flavor, you will be happy with it.

Have I replied your question?

In fact,I do not want to say,as it will hurt the fans.

 

 

 

 

 

@emergingsoul 

Well that depends...

One if you believe in that break in occurs in the first place. Solid State amps I think sound good out of the box. Others find that you need about 100- 300 hours for them to open up.  The tube stuff needs some time. The sonic character mellows a bit as the tubes get some hour on them. They age like a light bulb does so the sound changes a bit.

@runwell What does? I have listened to manufacture's tests systems comprised of their top tier components and super hi-end speakers, that retail well over $600k. They sounded mighty dams good, but the sound still was no where near the real thing.

My 611’s with B&W 802d3’s are outstanding.  Plenty of solid bass punch, beautiful mid range, and clear highs.  Maybe Macs sound flat with other speakers, but mate well with B&W’s.

Oh really runwell?...and what are you using?

simply put, their sound is far from the live sound,and that is reason.

 

walkertm,

I think that is a fair assessment of the brand.

Mc seems value priced.  
how long to breakin ss amps?

I do not get why anyone would dish McIntosh myself. True they are not flashy sonic wise and stick to tried and true technology. Their voicing is in the safe zone so they do everything right, but nothing that has a WOW factor that calls attention to itself. They offer no audio bling to drawn you in, they just sound right. Others would argue that their Auto-former technology sort puts o choke collar on their sound so they are not the last word in dynamics and punch.

It is a matter of taste, I really like Macs because they do not try to be glamorous but have substance. Tried and true technology that lasts for years. They are not a company that engineers it product to be in line whit the latest audio fad, but built and voiced for the long haul. 

1) Why dont people,like mcintosh?
 

2) Who motivates this?

3)  so what are the alternatives?? 
 

1-  considered Too expensive by some,  They prefer a different sound

2-  You 

3-  Too many to List, shop around 

limomangus,

You must be kidding. There are many brands priced far higher. 

The equipment is nice but the prices are out of this world.

Different isn't always better, just different.

It is C2200 Mcintosh tube Preamplifier.

Even it is Tube Pre,it is big big different from Audio Research Pre.

 

Roxy54,
       I mean the preamplifier is tube one,if I do not remember wrong,it is 2100. I try to check online,but do not find out.