I totally get what you mean, you can stand up for yourself. But when someone comes in swearing and being totally disrespectful, this creates a negative atmosphere, and when let to fester gets out of control. It's best to deal with it right away.
Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
380 responses Add your response
The Mustang might be faster than the Porsche. The way to find out is put them on the track and measure their times, but you know that goes against the orthodoxy, "It looks like it should go faster." They way to find out is not by looking or listening to
but by measuring and testing them. What's tolerated here is obvious ignorance about science and common sense. No on is "trolling you" sweetheart just trying to add a touch of reality in a world subjected to believing everything one is told. This has nothing to do with free speech, feel free to flag the post. | ||||||||
Gotta love it when people put words in your mouth and go on to elaborate on a lie. Something tells me they've faced complaints of them in other venues (and in real life) and they've gotten good at not dealing directly but going off on tangents with their filibusters. They used to call it blinding one with BS. All the best, | ||||||||
Sorry but personaly i welcome the " measuring gear fetichists" and their accusations of being wrong, biased, and credulous... 😁😊 If someone accuse me of lying i am a grown adult i dont want rules for protecting me... I can answer to someone... Politeness must be respected for sure... i dont like group closed on themselves anyway...
Thats all... | ||||||||
Friends, we are getting far afield from the original post which was about people who's seeming agenda is to be disruptive rather than helpful to the group. Yes, individual rights are important. We should be allowed to criticize. But criticism of something you have NO experience is invalid. It becomes even more invalid when you imply that someone is a liar, based solely of some idea you have without any experience with that item or others based on the same principle of operation. Then it becomes more ridiculous when you imply that science backs up your assertion, all the while not having done one second of observation yourself. The same applies when you base an opinion on scientific inquiry which has never addressed the validity of said product. But it gets even more ridiculous when the skeptic is backed into a corner where science cannot rescue him/her who then says that science is ever changing. Well duh! You cannot have it both ways. But they try because its not about finding truth. Its about submission to their rigid rules Scientism where they have deemed truth to align with their thinking only. Then they call on free speech when they are called out as if they do NOT attempt to shut down every opinion which they disagree with.!! So the problem again comes down to who's ox is being gored. This is where the double standard comes in. Many will willfully gore someone's ox because they disagree with the owner of the ox who like the color of his ox. . Yet they often cry the loudest when their ox gets gored by the other in a defensive move. Kinda like they are crying due to the OP. Free speech CANNOT be sustained where double standards become the norm. We see this in our society at large and of course that has spilled over into everyday life. This is the offense which the OP, myself and others are pointing to. Its NOT the Opinion which needs to be silenced. It’s the childish double standard in which the opinion is expressed. A child may be broken of such offensive mannerisms and taught better. But it is reprehensible coming from grown people. And the offense is further exacerbated when those who are offensive, try to justify their treachery and act as if they are the victim, when in fact, they are the aggressor.. So again, Share your opinion, but do so without being offensive
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I am ok hilde45 with what you just said because the only common norm i see is politeness and logical arguments... We cannot like someone else just said define rigousrously the topic of many thread in advance to be PURE AUDIO MATTER, if we want so it will be necessary to arbitrarily condemn some thread questions... i dont like that... I prefer some chaos to the lost of freedom... Anyway what means staying on pure audio matter? 😁😊
For example: the discussion we have right now seems civil to me in this thread...And it is not pure audio matter at all... To be frank i love too much people here to enjoy ONLY PURE AUDIO MATTER subject... Anyway i know what the important matter in audio better than most: acoustic/psycho-acoustic... I joke here for sure, but i am also serious... Who is perfect? Not me... 😁😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊 Please dont ban me... Thanks....
«The best rule is one rule: love each other like yourself... is it not the best rule?»-Anonymus Smith «The best rule are the most difficult to apply»- anonymus ruler
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Some purists here just don't seem to get it. This is not a book one can choose not to read and lay down (or toss in the garbage). This type of venue relies on good intentions and honesty, above all else. All of this is done remotely so all the pontificating on what transpires in a public (not virtual) space really can't be applied here, so we rely on people behaving civilly. When they fail to behave civilly and refuse to stay on topic, we are now stuck with them and they know it. Remote as we are, we're all part of a larger, captive audience and it seems that some take great joy in disrupting, so what I said above still applies. That freeway and lake are beckoning...heed their siren call. All the best, | ||||||||
The issue is not "denial" or even "affirmation" -- it's claims without evidence or reasoning. That's why calls for "free speech" are really misplaced. They're like asking mom and dad to settle a fight that the kids should settle themselves. The issue the OP described is not something to adjudicate with rules but with shared norms. The best way for a group to reprimand baseless claims -- affirming or denying -- is to push back, counter-argue, shame, or ignore. Not call for rules from above. Because after all, all a conversation really has are the norms it creates for itself. An audio forum is "sandlot baseball." So: push back, counter-argue, shame, or ignore | ||||||||
A cooking forum is way more in a thin focus about world matter than an audiophile forum... Here we speak about commercial, geopolitical, philosophical, scientific , and many others matter IMPLICATED in the business and in the hobby... No cooking forum debate about inflated price of wheat... Look at the vast varieties of audio threads and their opening question... Then i agree with the politeness and constructive part,but it is impossible for all to agree on all matters RELATED to audio... Try to make a list of matters related to audio... good luck, you will review all matters who exist even zoology...For example the different reactions of animals to sound and music...Even mathematics are related to audio by acoustic and digitral Fourier analysis...What a bat can hear? and what is listening is a neurology problem also... Then will you ban some mathematician contesting the use of Fourier analysis in the definition of what a sound is? Will you ban someone who discuss geopolitic and postal fees and all problems linked to world wide audio industry? I think we must BAN NO ONE.... It seems the fashion in Canada and in America now is to BAN everything we dont like... Difficult and insane job...By insane people sorry....
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Ok, I have to agree with the OP here. This is an "audiophile" forum where like-minded individuals come to discuss and debate. This does not mean that any j***a** can just come in and beak off because they don't have anything better to do. There are forums for a reason. It would be like me going into a food forum and saying "All you b**ches suck at cooking!" That would probably be it for any future posting there. So a whole thread gets deleted because of 1 or more individuals? It's really a kick in the nuts (or groin) for all the people who invested their time and effort. Who really gets hurt here? Exactly, the the backbone of the forum. It's about time to get some nads and do the right thing. If you can't relate and/or debate politely and constructively, then maybe your energy can be used someplace else. | ||||||||
@helmholtzsoul … you are fooling nobody with your brand new shiny profile but recidivist modus operandi. And yes you are quite correct, WE shall indeed see 😉
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Who decide who is a troll? Are we a troll from the womb? 😁😊 or is being a troll is being a provocator times to times to stir the pot?? Some here are born with truth, armed with truth, and decide who is and who is not a troll...like some pope... In my experience here trolls are not so common, most people here are people with a strong bias, we all have our own biases, i dont want to ban people save in exceptional case... I prefer discussion with ARGUMENTS.... no one is able to PROVOKE ME why? Because i can have arguments...and i can recognize if i am wrong with someone for some reason... i dont want and will not call anybody here a "troll"... I dont see that often... What i see is sometimes some people time to time troll some discussion... But for godsake it is EASY to answer without insulting people...myself i certainly stir the pot sometimes... Am i a troll?
Why qualify someone of troll so easily? Guess why? Dividing people more is stupid...The good and the bad really? Some like to clothe themselves in "truth"... I prefer clear and rational discussions... i hate censorship... I dont hate any alleged "trolls" qualified so by a "pope"... I like people of ANY kind, from any opinions, and from any ideology... But i want to discuss not banning people... I even like the pope here... 😁😊
And who has the innate right to proclaim this save a "pope" :
Sorry i like free speech more than your proclaimed self rightfulness ... Why not loving people who are not in accordance with our own "truth"? I love millercarbon and nonoise alike... why? Because they have strong character... And i am nor republican nor democrat this help a lot ! But i have also a strong character...And i am not perfect this is why i may apologize time to time... 😁😊 About free speech: the great Voltaire involved in all injustices combats of his time once said: «Father, I hate what you write, but I will give my life so that you can continue to write.» These words are the sign of greatness... Who will dare to contradict that? The fathers of America constitution perfectly know Voltaire greatness, guess what comes from this fact ?
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I don't see why trolls should be given an equal footing in a forum dedicated to music enjoyment and the gear that gets us there. F*ck free speech. That's been the rallying call of trolls, naysayers and provocateurs since, forever. This place is not a confessional, a psychiatrist's office or some bastard form of a rappers duel. Nor is it a place to proselytize or strut around with one's sandwich board. If you have an agenda to disrupt, annoy and troll, take a hike. You're not welcome here. So stop with the "I've got a right to free speech BS". No. You don't. You're just a few rungs down the ladder from yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater and need to grow up. Go get your kicks playing on the freeway yelling at the cars that you have the right to be there, or go swimming in a lake full of gators and tell them it's a free country and you can swim wherever you want. I need the laugh. All the best, | ||||||||
The quotation of questionable source that advocates "never learning from people that always agree with you" springs to mind. IMHO audiofoolery and audio myths permeate the industry, but scammers and conmen/women across all walks of life have existed since time immemorial. That said; I don’t support berating anyone for their beliefs. Obviously any intent to cause harm is excluded. If a friend discussed buying "audio rocks" or something equally inane, I’d gently caution them, but if they persisted; I’d back off immediately, as it’s their money to spend as they wish. I’m also a firm believer in diminishing returns and cannot personally discern sound quality improvements (differences maybe) in equipment after a certain price point. BUT: That’s me. If others wish to chase "perfection" so be it. I will probably benefit indirectly, via trickle down technology anyway. Exclusivity and cliques are also a big turnoff for me. Can't stand that gibberish. It's synonymous with inbreeding. | ||||||||
But it is not a free and open forum here. Just ask all the outcasts. This is why the MSM and the Far Left are freaking about Musk buying Twitter. They will lose their blowtorch for their agendas. As it is now like here they can squash all opposing views. | ||||||||
Yes we should allow them and then attack the crude out of them Make disparaging remarks about their lack of education Attack their ethical reason for being here Post graphics depicting our superiority over their lowly existence Make sure to post the almighty "Yawn" because the discussion that everyone else in enjoying is beneath us Call them names, I mean direct insults make sure their is no way they can not understand our audiophile superiority. THATS THE AUDIOGON WAY
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Skepticism is good, very good. Comparing an internet thread to a book is idiotic. Most books go through an editing process and are chosen by folks with an economic interest to publish. My internet ramblings are just that. Ramblings from an unvetted source. And kudos to our moderators to making this place much, much better. The intent from the OP is to incite with flawed logic and a sad need to publically address his insecurity. | ||||||||
Let's remember that "free speech" refers to freedom from GOVERNMENT censorship. Private forums can censor, or refuse to censor, anything or anybody, for any reason or no reason. Doing so may be wise, or it may be stupid, but it's within their legitimate power. | ||||||||
While these kinds of audiophiles exist, an audiophile is actually someone who likes music and music reproduction purest to the source as possible. You are an audiophile and so am I. Just like any other group, we are not as monolithic as we would like to be. We have our fools and our savants. There is no test for membership, it’s quite a large tent 😀 and that’s how I like it. | ||||||||
@tsushima1 +1 | ||||||||
Audiophile (as with any ...phile" just means people who are ’emotional’ about a subject, and beyond (measurable) reason. Since there is no objective way to, the door is wide open for ’opinions’. Other examples are discussions about GOAT (any), cars, etc. So, the ’audiphile’ "denier" is just as ’right’ as the ’audiophile’ who stipulates that the powerline going or one brand of wall outlet has a big impact on the sound. If it were a true science, there wouldn’t be any ....phile out there. Just data.
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Back in the late sixties a guy named Amar Bose did some research. He got students to listen to sections of music where some frequencies were removed. His sample group was fairly large and he concluded that you could remove some frequencies and the majority would not notice. That was part of the development for the Bose 901 loudspeaker. So his blind testing was flawed in that just because a lot of people could not recognize a difference doesn't mean a difference didn't exist. And let me emphasize this, an audible difference did exist. After reading his thesis, it became clear to me that blind testing is a flawed concept.
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An audiophile is someone who believes that there is no solved problem in audio reproduction. Everything is always evolving. High fidelity is a road not a destination An audiophile was once blindfolded and brought in front of a live band in a concert hall and asked to criticize “the system” using only his golden ears. He proceeded to find 12 shortcomings (from loose bass to small soundstage) and concluded that his own system was much more realistic. OK, I am kidding. | ||||||||
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Why is freedom, freedom, freedom such a calling card today? Having real freedom means not only receiving the benefits of that freedom, but also the costs or consequence of that freedom.
Cancel cultures promoted by people from all over the political spectrum. New laws promoting an informant society, and then involving government into that informant society for enforcement. And I could go on and on.
Same old, same old since beginning of human existence. Human love their own freedoms, not so much for their fellow humans, especially when it interferes with their own freedom. And today, such thin skins, speech that offends one's sentiments, ideologies, prejudices, etc. Not sure I've observed a less free American society since Victorian age. Perhaps this self knowledge is what motivates the hue and cry for freedoms these days. Many need to repeat shallow mantras such as freedom to maintain their delusions/denial of ugly realities.
The greatest threat to our freedom is found in the very thing we're obsessed with these days. Social media has become a great vehicle for misinformation, section 230 insulates platforms from being sued for this misinformation. Section 230 is guarantor of free speech, lies and every conspiracy under the sun allowed here. https://accessiblelaw.untdallas.edu/limits-free-speech-social-media
Today, I observe much more conflict, reductionist, reactionary thought processes than at any time in my life. Perhaps we don't like or need so much freedom? Ultimately, its up to the masses to determine the course of this freedom, I'd suggest future of free speech in peril due to lack of critical thinking faculties in far too many people. Both costs and benefits need to be accepted in our determination to find truth. Extolling only virtues and benefits for whatever one is promoting as truth will only lead to a less free society. | ||||||||
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I agree with spenav. I don't get offended by the people with negative comments. Actually, I kind of feel sorry for them because they can't hear the differences with cables, fuses etc. But like spenav also said, if they can't hear the differences and are happy without these things, that's ok. Enjoying music is the bottom line. | ||||||||
This comes to mind….
“A CULT OF IGNORANCE” BY ISAAC ASIMOV, 1980
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Blessings on you believers and agnostics alike! Doesn’t it come down to whether you think this hobby resides more in the realm of science or faith? If the former then challenge and refutation is the mothers milk of a truth seeker. If the latter then we should just declare it so and proclaim that all apostates will be banished into the wilderness. | ||||||||
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Just because some people question the value of expensive cables does not automatically make them "audiophile deniers". Now, if I come on here and ridicule the entire hobby, that’s one thing. But suppose I suggest that cables have a low point of diminishing returns and that money is better spent on other components. That’s a legitimate opinion about how to achieve audiophile nirvana. Is it in fact possible that a better interconnect can improve SQ as much as a better DAC or a better preamp? I really don’t know, but would like to hear both sides (preferably backed up by either objective evidence or expert opinion). That is a big reason I visit a forum like this.
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helmholtzsoul
You seem rather well versed with this forum for someone so New !!! Somewhat angry as well … I am told that Feeding Chickens can be therapeutic And may assist with anger management issues . | ||||||||
Mrskeptic Said... "Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously. " I agree 100% when one is touting and promoting a product that has no specs available to support the marketing claims. I'm especially speaking of products with astronomical price tags targeted toward elitists who believe that price dictates how well an item performs which isn't always true. Don't attempt to convince others based solely on perception and not actual proof that your 4000.00 power cable makes your amplifier sound better. I'll believe that when you sit in a room with an unbiased witness and repeatedly identify that cable in a blind test over the stock cable that the engineer who designed your amp chose to provide with it. Yes there is good and valuable information presented in this forum but also quite a bit of foolishness and hype over products like this without real technical evidence to back up their BS marketing claims. | ||||||||
"free speech" A US citizen's free speech is only guaranteed when speaking about government. Otherwise it is a courtesy. There are few exceptions. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is one of them. There is no such thing as a "god given" right. Rights are bestowed upon people by other people, period. With that said, the moderators of this board can ban or remove anyone at anytime and there is no legal recourse. There are many viable reasons why they do not ban people for being "audiophile deniers." But rest assured, it is a courtesy to come here and announce such beliefs. | ||||||||
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