Why should audiophile deniers be allowed on an audiophile forum?
Why should we be subjected to audiophile deniers, on a site dedicated to audio?
It’s antithetical to the hobby and adds nothing to the pursuit. I want to quote something from another thread.
@djones51 wrote "exposing bull products like "audiophile switches, cables, fuses " and other highly questionable devices that serve no purpose"
What then, is the purpose of people with this agenda being on this site? To “expose bull products.” It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories is not a discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Would a car enthusiast site stand for this type of post?
Try going on a Porsche forum, just for example, and posting that your Mustang is just as fast 0-60 and that others poster’s claims about their driving experience is “dubious.” See how long that will be tolerated
There are plenty of sites to poke fun at audiophile’s obsession with cables, power conditioners etc. Why does it belong here, especially when we can’t mute specific posters?
What’s next? Arguing that speakers that measure the same must sound the same and that we are all suckers for buying expensive speakers? I thought we got rid of trolling?
Isn’t it obvious with all the ASR related posts here lately we are being trolled?
A couple of months back I read a post here about someone that ordered a new cat8 cable from China. I tried it and posted back my fantastic results for others to benefit.
Personally that’s the kind of forum I’m interested in, not to come here to be challenged about what I hear and that since it can’t be measured so it must be “dubious.”
This is America. I'll fight to the death for your right to your opinion. But if your opinion is censorship, it is wrong. But you can find a lot of friends to commisurate with at twitter.
Why should anyone assume this or any web site with a free open forum is scam free?
Throwing blocks for scammers by inferring that is the case is one possible reason. It’s perfectly clean here right? Why should anyone ask questions?
Scammers are everywhere these days and many are quite sophisticated in their methods so always beware. Emotional appeals to try and trigger a quick and poorly thought out response is a common tactic. It’s easy to read up and learn about what goes on these days.
Because the goal of any education is to detach the individual from the groups and make him able to reinstall himself in the group less as a sheep but like a conscious individual being...
I hate censorship...
I hate groups...
I hate crowds...
I like discussions...
And do you want any audiophile being excluded from a group of non audiophiles?
i hate woke stupidity...
i love people of any kind INDIVIDUALLY... Like Christ i hate mobs of any kind ...
But if groups must be created for the sake of the society i will accept them but with SANE biological distinctions... 😁😊
My respect goes to individual only...
I count a couple of two to be an individual nevermind the sexes...
«Crowd begin with three adults »- Groucho Marx 🤓
«I discount children »
«In crowd there is the sheeps, the leader and the shaman, i prefer to stay out and i created the job of being a clown»-Groucho Marx 🤓
«Most clowns are free thinkers , and most free thinkers are perceived as clowns»-Groucho Marx 🤓
« Together we are way too much people brothers»-Groucho Marx 🤓
Free speech!!!!!????? Really? I didn't see anyone stand up for Millercarbon's "free speech"! Some have pointed out his poor manners. Yet these deniers have some of the worst manners. They mock, ridicule and implicate that those who HAVE heard the tweaks are a liar. Then others pile on with their offensive behavior until the whole thread gets removed. Perfect Path Tech always gets cancelled for that very reason.Nano-flo gets the same treatment now. As I said in a recent thread posted by @Hilde45, when one man's ox gets maliciously gored, it should be an offense to all. But that doesn't happen today. Most only feel offended when it is THEIR ox which suffers the gore. Like children on a playground, they often laugh when someone who they disagree with has their ox gored. As my old step daddy used to say, "right is right and wrong is wrong no matter WHO is doing it. Free speech comes only when THAT rule is applied. true freedom demands justice for all and NOT just those you like and agree with.
As @emailists has said, (my edits)
It’s fine for someone to post they tried a product and it didn’t work for them, but to dismiss entire product categories (when you have absolutely NO experience with said products is not a (valid) discussion that belongs on an enthusiast forum.
Even so, I don’t like stifling someone’s opinion. They have a right to be wrong. But I get tired of the poor ethics & manners of those who call someone a liar without adequate cause. How would you go about proving they are a liar? You cannot. And in the real world you may be liable for slander or a good old a** whippin”
Not only is this extremely poor manners, but it goes against the forum rules also. It should not be allowed. As to the free speech issue, it DOES NOT apply to a business.
I’m glad that @emailists has posted this because it has been on my mind for some time. Many good & knowledgeable people have left because of these poor manners which are allowed by Agon. I remember when every post had to be approved by the moderator. I didn’t like it then nor would I like it now. But when you are in charge of a nursery, you must keep a close watch.. What a shame. Grown ups , some with advanced degrees, acting like impetuous children just to get their way, no matter who gets hurt.
I prefer to test myself ...And i dont sell anything but i dont want to be paternally
guided like a children...
If it is so easy to you to read THROUGH scammers intention, let me goes my way, i will myself decide for myself..
I dont like scammers groups but i dont like also ALLEGED and self promoted NON-scammer professional skeptic group...
I want to listen to each one here INDIVIDUALLY...
Scapegoating is like censorship...I hate it...
Scammers are everywhere these days and many are quite sophisticated in their methods so always beware. Emotional appeals to try and trigger a quick and poorly thought out response is a common tactic. It’s easy to read up and learn about what goes on these days.
Cause and effect are not a "thing"...Nor beliefs...
They are a complex conceptual and experimental process...Sometimes easy to verify...Sometimes not at all...
They are sometimes personal experience...
For example put a shungite piece on an amplifier and put a quartz piece and note the difference... If you experiment it many times you will infer a cause and an effect...
This is an experiment, not a "thing" not a scam...Not a belief...
i dont need that someone point to me a "cause" or an "effect" of his own choice... especially in audiophile threads...
I dont want to be rude with you mapman and i apologize for my posts to you but i must say that...
I know you are a trustful person only a bit more " sceptical" mind that i am...I am a mystic even if i read about sciences... 😁😊
You get banned for doing something you shouldn’t do like breaking laws or even just rules. Not just because other people don’t like you. There is no rule or law that says people have to like you.
Yes, free speech trumps all, as unappetizing as it may be sometimes. Moderators were mentioned, and remember that our free speech is only as free as they allow it to be, because this is a private site. Those of us who have been here for a while are very aware of that.
There have been casualties of this system; good members who became disgusted and quit or were bullied out, or were banned by moderators, but it’s also somewhat self regulating. Members that constantly spew nonsense will eventually get drummed out under the pressure of group disapproval or by simply being banned.
Thanks all for weighing in, in a constructive and respectful manner.
Just to clarify though, freedom of speech is the ability for you to publish your writings without government intervention. It does not mean that a newspaper has any obligation to publish your letter to the editor. Most editorials submitted to newspapers are not published. Just like the print versions of Stereophile or TAS don’t publish every letter they get.
Sites have a right to decide what kind of content or conduct they allow published on their site.
It’s generally outlined in the terms of service no one reads.
For instance this site has a right to declare no political discussion. Is that censorship? I don’t believe so. There are many many places to discuss those matters. We come here to talk audio, ask advice, learn about new (or old) gear.
Of course things are going to go off the rails sometimes, but at what point is it counterproductive to the mission of the forum?
I think we’re here to help make our systems and music listening experience better.
Having people whose world view is that cables are snake oil, DACS all sounds the same, etc. is essentially anti-audiophile. These differences are well documented and dare I say “measured.” (I auditioned some Iconoclast speaker cables years back that came with their own set of measurements - I only returned them because at the time the shortest length sold was 10 feet)
I shouldn’t have to come onto an audiophile friendly site and have to defend basic principles of the hobby, or be told that my experiences with an audiophile ethernet switch are nonsense.
These days we really do often buy products unseen and unheard. When doing this my exception is always negative and I expect to send it back. Sometimes I don't because it is better than my expectation. Who says expectation bias is always one way?
The 0-60 of a Mustang can be objectively tested. Almost all things claimed to improve a stereo's sound are done via "because I hear a difference and I know what I hear."
Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously. Especially when some believe stuff like these things (literally magic crystals) make a difference in a system. https://walkeraudio.com/?product=black-diamond-room-treatment-crystals
It is easy enough to skip reading a post you feel is offensive, and it is also easy enough to learn which posters are systematically irritating to you and avoid reading them. It is not up to you or a moderator to decide a poster’s opinion or view is unworthy of posting here. I have avoided buying many items after getting a sense that they are not worth the money. Posts here have sent me on missions to research an item in other places to see if the negative is widely held. So I say let the reader decide what they want to read.
People seem to misunderstand the idea of a "Free Country"
It’s not acceptable for a stranger to enter your house take the food from your fridge, light a fire on your table cook and eat your food, take a dump on your sofa and leave... Freedom means they are free to do that in their own house.
In the same way, if you build a community of like minded people to discuss the merits and the shortcomings of equipment relating to a common interest, you are not respecting someones freedom by allowing them to enter the group for no other reason than to cause disruption and annoyance to genuine members. There is no obligation to open your doors to anyone you do not wish to invite in. Their freedom is that they are free to go and start their own community and discuss the failure of equipment they have never heard or owned.
You are not required to read every post and you are not required to believe very post that you do read. If X posts that a particular network switch (just to pick a particular example) made an enormous difference in his system and Y posts that the same network switch made no difference in her system, you are not required to read or believe either post. Alternatively, you could read both posts and use them to inform yourself as to whether you want to try that switch for yourself. If the network switch costs $1000 and you cannot try it for free, you might be very glad to have read the experiences of two users.
Becaurse we need each other. Differentieret opinion from differentieret views. Make the best of it and take from the discussion what you think make sense for you.
Else we All get a one track mind and we do not evolve. Have a open mind, it is not just about being right All the time.
I use to be right All the time...😉 But only from my perspective. Now i am far from right All the time but getting wiser and more happy.
It is not my job to convince another why he or she is wrong, i can just tell the person why i have my opinion, seen form my perspective.
The good question is how many true and sincere "audiophile deniers" became "audiophile believers".
Sharing experiences and knowledge are free gifts, give credit to participants and when practicing justify the magic of perception.
It does not matter how expensive or how humble a system is, both are not recipies for good sound anyway, but even the slightest of experimentation is the key for making it sound better. Respect people who spend time in searching and share their findings.
The only bias should be applied only on amplifiers not on open discussions.
But action equals reaction and in free speach.
It is funny but another thread was raised concerning the validity of after market power supplies and power cables.
Poppies.
A US citizen's free speech is only guaranteed when speaking about government. Otherwise it is a courtesy. There are few exceptions. Yelling fire in a crowded theater is one of them. There is no such thing as a "god given" right. Rights are bestowed upon people by other people, period.
With that said, the moderators of this board can ban or remove anyone at anytime and there is no legal recourse. There are many viable reasons why they do not ban people for being "audiophile deniers." But rest assured, it is a courtesy to come here and announce such beliefs.
"Until audiophiles allow or at least accept blind testing, they'll likely never be taken very seriously. "
I agree 100% when one is touting and promoting a product that has no specs available to support the marketing claims. I'm especially speaking of products with astronomical price tags targeted toward elitists who believe that price dictates how well an item performs which isn't always true. Don't attempt to convince others based solely on perception and not actual proof that your 4000.00 power cable makes your amplifier sound better. I'll believe that when you sit in a room with an unbiased witness and repeatedly identify that cable in a blind test over the stock cable that the engineer who designed your amp chose to provide with it. Yes there is good and valuable information presented in this forum but also quite a bit of foolishness and hype over products like this without real technical evidence to back up their BS marketing claims.
Just because some people question the value of expensive cables does not automatically make them "audiophile deniers". Now, if I come on here and ridicule the entire hobby, that’s one thing. But suppose I suggest that cables have a low point of diminishing returns and that money is better spent on other components. That’s a legitimate opinion about how to achieve audiophile nirvana.
Is it in fact possible that a better interconnect can improve SQ as much as a better DAC or a better preamp? I really don’t know, but would like to hear both sides (preferably backed up by either objective evidence or expert opinion). That is a big reason I visit a forum like this.
Blessings on you believers and agnostics alike! Doesn’t it come down to whether you think this hobby resides more in the realm of science or faith? If the former then challenge and refutation is the mothers milk of a truth seeker. If the latter then we should just declare it so and proclaim that all apostates will be banished into the wilderness.
It’s hard to quarrel with that ancient justification of the free press: “America’s right to know.” It seems almost cruel to ask, ingenuously, ”America’s right to know what, please? Science? Mathematics? Economics? Foreign languages?”
None of those things, of course. In fact, one might well suppose that the popular feeling is that Americans are a lot better off without any of that tripe.
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
I agree with spenav. I don't get offended by the people with negative comments. Actually, I kind of feel sorry for them because they can't hear the differences with cables, fuses etc. But like spenav also said, if they can't hear the differences and are happy without these things, that's ok. Enjoying music is the bottom line.
... if you build a community of like minded people to discuss the merits and the shortcomings of equipment relating to a common interest, you are not respecting someones freedom by allowing them to enter the group for no other reason than to cause disruption and annoyance to genuine members. There is no obligation to open your doors to anyone you do not wish to invite in. Their freedom is that they are free to go and start their own community and discuss the failure of equipment they have never heard or owned.
Exactly. And it is clear that some come here for the primary purposes of disrupting and insulting.
No we cannot We have to try it for ourselves and make an opinion. It’s not about beliefs. I am not paying money for something I can’t hear. I don’t want to be a sucker.
Why is freedom, freedom, freedom such a calling card today? Having real freedom means not only receiving the benefits of that freedom, but also the costs or consequence of that freedom.
Cancel cultures promoted by people from all over the political spectrum. New laws promoting an informant society, and then involving government into that informant society for enforcement. And I could go on and on.
Same old, same old since beginning of human existence. Human love their own freedoms, not so much for their fellow humans, especially when it interferes with their own freedom. And today, such thin skins, speech that offends one's sentiments, ideologies, prejudices, etc. Not sure I've observed a less free American society since Victorian age. Perhaps this self knowledge is what motivates the hue and cry for freedoms these days. Many need to repeat shallow mantras such as freedom to maintain their delusions/denial of ugly realities.
The greatest threat to our freedom is found in the very thing we're obsessed with these days. Social media has become a great vehicle for misinformation, section 230 insulates platforms from being sued for this misinformation. Section 230 is guarantor of free speech, lies and every conspiracy under the sun allowed here. https://accessiblelaw.untdallas.edu/limits-free-speech-social-media
Today, I observe much more conflict, reductionist, reactionary thought processes than at any time in my life. Perhaps we don't like or need so much freedom? Ultimately, its up to the masses to determine the course of this freedom, I'd suggest future of free speech in peril due to lack of critical thinking faculties in far too many people. Both costs and benefits need to be accepted in our determination to find truth. Extolling only virtues and benefits for whatever one is promoting as truth will only lead to a less free society.
An audiophile is someone who believes that there is no solved problem in audio reproduction. Everything is always evolving. High fidelity is a road not a destination An audiophile was once blindfolded and brought in front of a live band in a concert hall and asked to criticize “the system” using only his golden ears. He proceeded to find 12 shortcomings (from loose bass to small soundstage) and concluded that his own system was much more realistic. OK, I am kidding.
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