PREFERRING something (tube equipment) does not mean it is BETTER.
Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?
Yes tubes are more involved and require periodic maintenance. Hybrid tube components need not apply, these are really solid state.
Tubes are better for multiple reasons and yet the world and the trade prefers solid state. Those rare audio shops that are geared toward stereo listening and serious connoisseurs tend to Focus more on tubes. Those in business who like to improve volumes tend to offer solid state. All the YouTube channels looking to improve their business tend to be solid state. Maybe because tubes require much more expertise to sell, and there's lesser and lesser to go around. Solid state is more of a fast food commodity.
Tubes are difficult for businesses due to all the maintenance and complexity so you see it less often. Much much easier to sell hybrids or solid state.
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I think it's because audio sales people don't wanna spend all the time necessary to sell tube gear. From what I can read above, tube is preferable but too much of a hassle to take care of, which really isn't true. Fast food commodity is what solid-state devices tend to be. They are crude, fatiguing and just annoying. Some are better than others, and many are cheap but look really pretty in a nice looking chassis. |
Simplicity. Some people don’t want to fuss with tubes, checking, or replacement. There are times I take the tubes out of rotation and play a nice Class-A solid state amp for a while. In the future, when I consolidate the system back down to a simple footprint, it may be leaning back towards a nice SS integrated amplifier unit. For now, hearing the tubes do what they do is worth the extra bit of time and fuss to me. |
IMO, for audio this used to be true. Not because of anything other than the distortion tubes made was innocuous to the human ear so they tended to sound smoother and more real in the mids and highs. There are engineering reasons for this. IME the big disconnect for engineers has been their understanding of human hearing perceptual rules and how that intersects with the circuit they are designing- most are looking for specs on paper rather than how the ear actually perceives things. This is why tubes are still around- they obey human hearing rules better. Until recently. There are now class D amplifiers that can deliver all the musicality that used to be exclusively the domain of tube amplifiers. Because of that I really think tube power is on borrowed time. When people find out the first statement of this paragraph is true, they will be wondering why they have to seek special tubes to make their amp really sing and then deal with the simple fact that a little ways down the road they will have to do it again. They will also wonder why they are dealing with the weight, size, heat and the simple fact that tube power is expensive. You have to admit that solid state is easier to live with. But now you don't have to sacrifice anything in the sound quality department either. Your call. |
What else does "the world" get wrong? Please tell us. Give me a break. You like tubes. I like tubes. I also like pizza? Is pizza better? Many people like solid state. It happens to be more convenient. But that's not why everyone likes it better. And having a PASS XA25 amp, I can tell you -- it's different and it's damn good. |
The answer is likely because customers buy them more often. I have a solid state amp because I don't want to be fiddling with tube replacement. I've heard some awesome sounding tube equipment (ARC, VTL, Rogue) and have chosen solid state over them. I also don't like mustard - it doesn't mean folks can't enjoy it. Enjoy your journey |
The problem is there is plenty of S. S. and plenty of tubes amplifiers all different with one another... Then it does not make sense to compare tube and S.S. in general... We cannot even may be able compare a specific tube design with a S.S. design ? Why ? Because these two different designs will respond very differently paired with this turnatble and this dac or this pre-amp or these speakers than with other components... We must start with a specific goal in a specific room with some idea about the speakers needs... Or we may start with a specific tube amplifier and buld everything around it...
it is difficult to compare...it is the reason why audio is based on listenings experiments every time in different acoustic situation... Anyway the sound quality of tubes amplifiers can be replicated EXACTLY by some S.S. design at will.. Sansui designed very good tubes amplifiers long time ago and take 20 years to replicate their best tube amplifiers with their top S.S. model EXACTLY the same sound impressions ... They even made the test public with a veil separating them to impress people... i did not have this site adress anymore though... Reading that it was the reason why i bought 2 Sansui S.S. amplifiers...Sansui Au-7700, and one of the first Sansui Alpha Au 607-i Heat in summer created by tubes and short life span of tubes in conventional tube design push me out of this game... I sold my only tube amp and 50 tubes...😊 The sound was too much S.S. like anyway compared to my superior Sansui Au 7700 ... 😊 The only tube amplifier i wanted to beat my marvellous Sansui Alpha a S.S. amp is the Berning ZOTL which use COLD tube and with a 10,000 hours life span at least..But the berning sound is not tube like in the conventional way it is described.. Then there is no general comparison between tubes and S.S. it is related more to the crafmanship of the designer, be it a tube amp. or a S.S. amp. Atmasphere here make for example stupendous tube amplification if we read reviews and i will not bec surprized if these tubes amplifier beat my Sansui Alpha at all... But not every tube designer is Berning or Atmasphere...And not all S.S. amplifier in the mass market are build as a top Sansui from the gold era of the company ...
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It makes plenty of sense to compare tubes and solid state! Tubes have pointed to a failing in solid state designs since the inception of the transistor. I explained exactly why this is so and the solution in my prior post above. |
I just read atmasphere interesting post about class D amplifiers... very interesting... Thanks... I did not know but coming from the designer mouth it is to be noted..
But it take a high qualified designer i imagine to put class D over tube amp... Not any class D design will do... Everybody working class D is not atmasphere... 😊
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I owned small tubed components for the last two or three decades… preamps and CD players.
Well, I am now sorry that I had hesitated. The characteristics of tube amps far outweigh the over emphasized down side. Also, my amp has auto biasing and slow startup, extending tube like and increasing reliability. |
It seems and i know that Alas! i did not have the money to buy proper tube amplification ... Even class D amplification well designed will cost too much compared to my Sansui alpha to try one... I can imagine at which level of musicality they could go if atmasphere himself vouch for them over his own tubes amp design ... I will be sad and desesperate if i was not already happy with what i own .. 😊 but i dream anyway to be able to afford one in the future...I will read about class D...
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@mahgister I remember you saying that no one really needed to spend more that $500 on a system if they were paying proper attention to their room. Now, you say, "It seems and i know that Alas! i did not have the money to buy proper tube amplification ..." Are you now asserting that spending more that $500 on audio equipment can make the sound better even if the room is made very very good? |
Superman is better than Batman Trucks are better than cars Football is better than baseball These statements sound like what kids would say... Televisions had vacuum tubes in them years ago. Are the televisions today better? Radios had tubes in years ago. Are they better than today's radios? What about computers? Maybe we should put tubes in them to make them better. I think cars would be better with tubes in the electrical system... Probably in the distant future... vacuum tubes will not longer be manufactured anywhere in the world. It's not what I want, but tubes are not that great at what they do.....we have technology today that does the job BETTER. |
I have tube amps. I have SS amps. The SS amps mainly sound the same when I let me head get out of the way. The tube amps all sound a bit different. Neither is better, they are just different. Depending on what speakers I have them hooked up to, they can be much different. Sometimes I like it. Sometimes I don't. Audio is always that way. That is why we buy so much crap. |
Hilde45 do you suffer from a mental problem with my presence here?
First i am satisfied with my audio system as it is...I said it multiple times... Second improving when we know what we do is ALWAYS Possible... Third i even indicated many times how i could improve my actual completely satisfying IMPERFECT system , by buying Dr. Choueri dac, Atmasphere class D amp or Berning Zotl i dont know now for sure, and i will keep my headphone... Total cost of ugrading to beat my completely satisfying system ( 600 bucks) FOR ME NOW with a REAL upgrade because i know what i am doing and why : 15, 000 bucks... I dont know the price of Atmasphere class D amplification but i trust him as i trust Berning for quality design and for now i dont know what will be better for me ...
Conclusion : Dont trail me to cure your frustration about my long posts or alleged contradictions or for the simple reason you want to be at the center and i throw shade on you ... Go consult a psychologist treating obsession.. I cannot help you... I never trail people with this kind of obsessive behaviour ... I like to discuss but with you it is impossible...you never DISCUSSED my points... you are too obsessed it seems to be clear thinking.. You are supposed to be a philosopher , where are your philosophical points contradicting anything i said in acoustic , in musical interpretation or in any general matter ? NOWHERE... Anybody can found your annoying posts about me VOID of any content but only there to criticize my posts words count ( for almost three years now with the same observation and by the way as i said from the begining you are right my posts are too long ) or my alleged contradictions now ... In a word, save for an idiot, or a nevrotic dude looking for my alleged contradictions, the fact that we can live happy with speakers in a dedicated room at low cost dont mean that UPGRADING SOUND QUALITY IS IMPOSSIBLE ... Do you catch the "nuance" ? The fact that acoustic installation beat most upgrade dont mean that Atmasphere amplification will not upgrade inferior amplification save for a distorted mind ... it is enough clear ? But yes because there is a minimal treshold of acoustic experience satisfaction , it is possible to create with 1000 bucks a very good satisfying system...I did it.. is it easy ? No... it takes me 2 years full time... i hope to be clear... And read all my posts before putting words in my mouth... By the way to cure hate i recomment studying, it is very efficient... Try it...
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@atmasphere wrote:
Does this apply mostly to the variants you’ve developed, or as well a more general direction with other, selective ranges of class D amplifiers? |
@phusis I can't speak for other class D amps although I've heard a few that are really quite good. Class D amps vary in sound more than from the worst to best tube amps. Some really can't be taken seriously. Some are really boring. And some are amazing. The amp we designed worked out to have a distortion signature that looks for all the world like a tube amp when you have it on the bench. The distortion of any amplifier is its 'sonic signature'. What so many people don't realize is how audible distortion really is since our ears assign tonality to all harmonics (that is after all how musical instruments sound unique too...). So if you have an amp that has a distortion signature that looks like that of another amp, it will sound like that other amp too. We were lucky in that the non-linearities that exist in our design tend to generate lower ordered harmonics. So very similar to a tube amp in this regard. Of course we have a lot lower distortion so the amp is more transparent. I sincerely doubt that we are the only ones to be able to do this!! So tube amps are on borrowed time. |
@atmasphere , do you have distortion measurements that you can share with us comparing your tube and class-D amplifiers? |
Nope. I asked you a simple question. You said many times that no one needed more than $500 in a system to have great sound. Now you’re saying something different. I’m asking you what’s changed. I was hoping you’d yes or no and then discuss why. Raising the issue of "mental problems" is interesting though. Funny that you went there. 2 minutes of searching:
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You only post to criticize me ...It seems to me guess why ? You question are to put an imagined contradiction in my posts.. You patronized me about my long posts whitout END..Because the same advice for 3 years is PATRONIZING someone it is no more a friendly advice...You go on even after i apologize.. And the last time i naively apologize and thank you ... Guess what you did : You s...t on me and my thread next minute..i will not apologize and thank you in the future ANYMORE if you did not change your way toward me.. What do you think i thought about your ACCUSATION of contradiction ? it was not an innocent and good faith question at all..Do you think i am an idiot ? Anyway it is ridiculous to assemble my quotes.. I will resume them by FACTS i stated in your selection and out of it for the last 3 years... : -- First i am completely satisfied and in heaven with my 600 bucks system for reasons i will not explain here anew ( the main reason is minimal satisfaction treshold is reached thanks to my optimization and diminushing returns) -- Second as audiophile i dream, i know what i do, and any system at any price can be improved and upgrade... It is not necessary even to explain why...It is RIDICULOUS to think that a 600 bucks system cannot be upgraded... The urge for upgrade is LOST... The upgrade exist ... I compute his cost... --- Third i already computed the price of my ultimate upgrade and the only one i will do; 15,000 bucks.. Then assembling out of context my posts to search for a supposed contradiction says more about you than about me... i spoke of mental health because ALL your last posts were of bad faith...No discussion... criticizing my number of words, and two post about my alleged contradiction...After three years of patronizing about my number of words.. ☺😊 In contrast with your behaviour i participated in your new thread and thank you for the idea... Perhaps it will inspire you to be FRIENDLY...
«When a cake is no more necessary for an hungry man he can go on dreaming about it in another way than just a meal » -- Groucho Marx 🤓
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@emergingsoul "Tubes are better for multiple reasons" Would you care to enumerate? |
Solid state is easier ,and no tubes are not better personally after 40+ years in audio a very good SS amp on the bottom and great Vacuum tube preamp on top . It’s a classic combination Tiubes with the wrong speakers can be not a plus, say applies to SS synergy is very important and not easy ,even changing to a new dac or cables can destroy the synergy . |
I am always curious about tube gear, especially integrated amps. But the repeated expense of tube replacement and maintenance turns me away. I recently bought a McIntosh MA352 hybrid integrated amp (200 watts). Since I was under the impression that the preamp stage was more dominant in determining SQ, I thought it was a reasonable compromise. In another room I have a Pathos hybrid amp (about 80 watts). Am I hearing "tubey" sound from these devices? I don't know because i have never developed an ear for pure tube equipment. And at my age, I don't think I could discern a difference. But dissing hybrid amps as really solid state is a cheap shot. In my other room I have a Hegel 590 SS integrated amp. I'm totally happy with my complete setups. |
I’ve been listening to tube’s exclusively for a couple of decades now. Until recently… Built my own 30w class a amp, paired it with a tube front end (I know, can’t let go of those tubes…) This SS amp has changed my opinions about gear. This amp, paired with a vintage Marantz 7T (which I fully recapped) sounds much better than I thought it would. Was never interested in SS, especially vintage SS, but my opinions are changing. Built a single ended EL84 amp, and am about to build a single ended EL34 and a tube pre to go with it. Ive stopped thinking about wether SS or tubes are better, they are just different and I like different things about both. I’m fortunate to be able to switch out between different amps, SS and Tube, push pull, single ended tube and SS as well as class and and class ab amps, tube and SS preamps and different types of speakers - horns, electrostatics, sealed, ported, horn loaded single drivers etc. DIY has its benefits… Its all about learning for me. I tend to find absolute statements such as the OP’s to be counter productive, and not particularly open minded.
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Hello emergingsoul. Tubes are not "better." Tubes are "different." Tube "sound" is often mentioned in discussions, so we know it's real, not imaginary. Tube amp power is rated at 10% distortion, SS amps are rated at 1%, so we are not rating them in the same way, so discussions of power are misleading. SS amps can also run to 10%, but who wants to hear distortion? Any amp distorts if it is pushed too hard. The very first SS amps sounded bad back in the '60s, but they got better. Class D amp sounded bad, but 20 years on, they got better. I think we all know that heat is the enemy of electronics. Tubes have to be hot to work - an unavoidable fact. (There are some cool tunning tubes that are small signal devices used in special applications, not powering loudspeakers.) Tubes eventually wear out and have to be replaced. The heat tends to cause parts to fail earlier than if they ran cooler. The voltage levels used in tube amps are often way over 100 volts, much higher that voltage levels used in most SS amps and so the parts used in tube amps are more costly and sometimes fail spectacularly. Have you priced tubes lately? SS amps are more energy efficient (especially class D), run cooler (class A amps alwys run warm - they can keep your dinner warm) and - these days in particular - are less expensive. I have and use a lovely glass bottle amp as well a Class A, AB, and D solid state amps. Listen to all sorts of amps on the best speakers (even if you can't afford them - you can't hear the differences on poor speakers) and buy what soounds best to you. No two people hear the same thing. Everybodiy's ears are different, just like noses, eyes, and other body parts. The most transparent amp I have puts out 9 watts and has tubes. But it costs $3000 these days. I have a wonderful sounding amp, 4 channels, over 100 wpc that costs $1000. I have six of them and will soon add a seventh. I like them. I have five systems in the house! Two of them are multi-channel surround sound rigs. I couldn't possibly afford to do that with tube amps. But a well regarded product that sounds good to you and be happy! Enjoy the music! |
I prefer solid state because: - there are no positron tubes to realize low distortion complementary designs; - there are no tubes to blow and punch a killing signal through my speakers; - low voltage is safer than high voltage, for people, pets, and downstream components; - low voltage is cheaper to filter, so that $x buys you better regulated power; - no tube-sourced hazards mean that I can remove protection devices or circuits, and considerably improve the sound thereby. YMMV |
Perhaps an overstated thread starter, but the discussion was great. Ralph really piqued my interest in his Class D amplifier. I’m currently using an integrated MA12000 driving Wilson Sabrina X, which at 2 ohms can be difficult to drive. Also, only have an old Audible Illusion Modulus 3b preamp that hasn’t been used for 20 years, but I am curious. |
multiple reasons why tube sound better? It probably is due to how harmonics are handled. Don't tubes impact harmonics differently, ie, provide more emphasis throughout the harmonic range in ways solid state does not? This is possibly why tube's provide a Fuller sound at lower volume. There were a couple passing references to harmonics up above, wish there was more discussion about harmonics, and wish I better understood why things sound differently. Maybe the new tube amp on order Will be helpful.
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It would be simple if there was at least one perfect amplifier. There are none. Amplifiers have multiple characteristics and all of them vary their strengths and weaknesses and each of us varies in which of these characteristics and their combinations sounds 'real'. So until we can learn how to measure the perfect amp which is way in the very distant future this 'religious' argument will go on. I can cite things tubes do better and things they do wrong and the same for solid state amps. So what. What matters is for each of us to put together a system that we can enjoy listening to. Decades ago I met a very smart English gentleman, Percy Wilson, who for decades was a leader in audio(among many things he was technical editor of Gramaphone for decades). I was at a dinner with him and other audio greats. I was aked to drive Percy and his wife back to their hotel with an admonition from the host that Percy tell me the Zanzibar Fallacy on the drive. You can look it up on the internet. I've written about in a few times. The jist of which is that for almost all of us our sonic reference is primarily our own systems(Soryy HP). |
