Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?

Myself i believe the words of a reputable tubes amp designer and engineer about class D over tube obsessed people who never get a good S.S. design... They exist... 😊

This is why i bought my Sansui Alpha ...😊

And i failed to upgrade it easily last week with a Zotl amp. ... I will keep the alpha....I want an atmasphere amplifier now to upgrade  but they exceed my wallet depth for now alas! ...

https://ishinolab-net.translate.goog/modules/doc_serial/audio_history_japan/serial001_025.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

http://file:///C:/Users/Utilisateur/Downloads/hfe_sansui_super-feedforward_system_brochure.pdf

Best post and best written one...

😁😊

" @emergingsoul  went fishing one day, hoping to catch a bass or another tasty tidbit......

....what surprised was 'the hit', followed by the reel exploding from the speed strength and heat, hooking the Great White....."

It's all in the bait....;)

Very imnportant and interesting post as always....

Thanks atmasphere...

The two tubes amplifier i listened too were more clinical hugely more than my Sansui alpha...

My Sansui alpha is fluid organic warm and detailed and beat these two by a HUGE margin...

If i was like you i will come here and said that S,.S. design beat tubes design...

It will be a preposterous claim by me and void of content ... Did i do it ? NO ...

Sorry to give you the news , some well designed S.S. dont sound clinical as you said at all... It was the opposite in my experience ...

Then generalization means nothing in audio, there is god design in any category , S.S. , tubes, hybrid : only synergy with components and acoustic matter at the end ...

Not opinions because nobody compared hundred of brand name amplification of any types IN THE SAME ACOUSTIC AND ELECTRICAL CONTEXT AND CONDITIONS ...

 But what you means i think is that many S.S. design  compared to top tubes design may sound clinical and this is true indeed... As is true the reverse about power, dynamic and details in top S.S. design compared many tubes design ...

 

I apologize to you because my post may seems rude but  i dont means it as an attack on your post... Only as an alternative answer...

 

my best to you...

Listening to a powerful solid-state amplifier is very nice but it’s not special. It’s very clinical and still enjoyable.

S.S. design and Tubes are two very good technology with good and bad apples in each groups...

Generalizatrion means nothing here , only synergy between components for specific ears canals and cochlea  at the end count...

I just returned back for refund  one of the most acclaimed tube amplifier which do not match my S.S. design on any acoustic count ...

Is my S.S. design better than this  tubes design ? NO

Is this tube amplifier badly designed ? NO

Why then ?

Synergy matter...

Then all generalization by most people had no real value...

There is bad tubes design and bad S.S. design...

There is supreme good top design in tube and in S.S. , at the end you JUDGE SYNERGY between your components...

Then all threads about digital versus analog or tubes versus S.S. means litlle ,  because you listen to the synergy between components and room acoustic ...

Nobody had ever listen a tube amplifier or a S. S. design UNCONNECTED to components and in no  specific room  in the air ...

In another thread a simplistic mind rejected all Sansui deasign in 67 years of production as obsolete compared to a tube amplifier...

I just bought one of the great tube amplifierfew days ago  and it does not even compare to the Sansui alpha in the specific synergy WHERE I USED IT. and the components with which i coupled it...

I refuse to bash Tube amplification because of this experience but some simplistic mind will claim that all S.S. amplifier compared to any tube amp are trash...

 

 

 

I will repeat my own experience...

Many past  s.s. amplifier presented harsh sounds, not my two S. S.  Sansui amplifiers...

The only Tube amplifier i bought was someway harsh sounding ... it was a relatively  low cost one ... I sold it ...

I think that well  designed tube amplifier cost more than few hundred bucks i guess..

All S.S. design are not equal , as like all tube designs are not equal...

 

 

 

 

 

I trust atma-sphere because i read his posts...

I am sure class D is the way...

but i wanted to try Berning ZOTL tubes amp...

Now i want someone who experience with these two amplification and what are the difference..

A rare bird review...

anyway i dont need to upgrade my Sansui Alpha ...

i can live without any upgrade...

 But i am curious...  Anybody know ?

 

If it sound like a piece of chalk on a board  icy cold analytic... It is a caricature for sure...

Or if it sound more like natural  warm but realistic voice and sound with a tonal  balance ... human voices and piano and violin are my test...

 

I'm not sure people really understand what distortion means. How is it considered to be good when listening to music, and tubes apparently doing much better job versus solid state.

I know atmasphere is right...

But all tube amplifier dont have expert design as atmasphere evidently own... I will not name de designer of my tube amplifier, but it was  inferior to my " Sansui S.S. amplifiers... to be fair it was low cost tube amplification...And my Sansui were labelled top S.S. design in 1978... 😊

I bought Sansui for only one reason : they designed their Au-series inspired by a comparison in sound with their best tubes amp and designed their Au S.S. to sound as pleasant for the ears as a tube amp...I never regretted it...

The tube amp i bought was not comparable at all... It sound as any S.S. amp i bought before the Sansui and i dislike them, a bit cold and analytical ...

Then Atmasphere is right but not all tube designer had his knowledge...

Anyway i never like any s. s. amp before my Sansui , as the  the only tube amp i bought ...

i am sure atamasphere is right about his knowledge, but not all amp tube or S.S. obey his psycho-acoustic harmonic third as he know for sure ... In my experience not much... but i never owned high cost amplifier... My costlier one is the Sansui Alpha who for me is very good.. Am i deluded ?

i dont know for sure... i love my S.S. Sansui... THen i think some S.S. obey this third harmonic constraint... Only atmasphere know for sure...😊

 

Actually its easily supported if you understand how distortion interacts with the ear. If you lack that information, then solid state appears the winner hands down.

Thanks Hilde45 ...

I prefer to be your friend by the way... Because i appreciate wise and intelligent people... And you are one... You are not completely faulty because i reacted with quick temper...

i wish you always the best...

This is a fair comment and I regret being partially responsible for the dialogue. My apologies to Mahgister and to forum members. People can read the substance of the exchange and form their own opinions but I agree it went over the line. I’ll do better.

I am here on the parking but he text me that he will not be here soon...😊😊😊

@hilde45 and @mahgister go out on a parking lot and settle it. Oh and record it for TikTok and send us a link. 

When we dont like someone posts , we pass over it... We dont write what you just wrote because as you said: it is pathetic...

by the way the only one dominating this thread is Ralph the designer of Atmasphere with his expert opinion about S.S. design , tubes design, and class D design... Not the relatively ignorant me in these three design matters choices and trade-off ... 😊

You are now dominating this thread. Replying very often and often with a lot of words. After being away for so long, now the thread is flooded with your words. Well, maybe this makes people happy. Not me, but it’s a free forum, so go ahead and fill these threads with your words.

Very good for a smile... Thanks 😊

You only post to criticize me ...It seems to me guess why ?

You question are to put an imagined contradiction in my posts..

You patronized me about my long posts whitout END..Because the same advice for 3 years is PATRONIZING someone it is no more a friendly advice...You go on even after i apologize.. And the last time i naively apologize and thank you ... Guess what you did : You s...t on me and my thread next minute..i will not apologize and thank you in the future ANYMORE if you did not change your way toward me..

What do you think i thought about your ACCUSATION of contradiction ? it was not an innocent and good faith question at all..Do you think i am an idiot ?

Anyway it is ridiculous to assemble my quotes..

I will resume them by FACTS i stated in your selection and out of it for the last 3 years... :

-- First i am completely satisfied and in heaven with my 600 bucks system for reasons i will not explain here anew ( the main reason is minimal satisfaction treshold is reached thanks to my optimization and diminushing returns)

-- Second as audiophile i dream, i know what i do, and any system at any price can be improved and upgrade... It is not necessary even to explain why...It is RIDICULOUS to think that a 600 bucks system cannot be upgraded... The urge for upgrade is LOST... The upgrade exist ... I compute his cost...

--- Third i already computed the price of my ultimate upgrade and the only one i will do; 15,000 bucks..

Then assembling out of context my posts to search for a supposed contradiction says more about you than about me...

i spoke of mental health because ALL your last posts were of bad faith...No discussion... criticizing my number of words, and two post about my alleged contradiction...After three years of patronizing about my number of words.. ☺😊

In contrast with your behaviour i participated in your new thread and thank you for the idea... Perhaps it will inspire you to be FRIENDLY...

 

«When a cake  is no more necessary for an hungry man he  can go on dreaming about it in another way than just a meal » -- Groucho Marx 🤓

 

hilde45

4,232 posts

07-06-2023 at 05:47pm

Hilde45 do you suffer from a mental problem with my presence here?

Nope. I asked you a simple question. You said many times that no one needed more than $500 in a system to have great sound.

Now you’re saying something different.

I’m asking you what’s changed.

I was hoping you’d yes or no and then discuss why.

Raising the issue of "mental problems" is interesting though. Funny that you went there.

2 minutes of searching:

"It is the reverse... Did you see him speaking about the three embeddings control? and the three dimensions of small room acoustic?
my system value is 500 bucks by the way... Try to imitate me and reach the same S.Q. if you can..."

"I buy nothing nor bought anything, save peanuts costs materials or devices i modified myself...I bought my basic 500 bucks audio system the rest are my experiments with homemade solutions and elementary science..."

"My system worth is 500 bucks and i smile all day long listening music and the upgrade is possible but make me laugh as useless for the price i must paid to do it really which will be over 10,000 bucks in my evaluation"

"I am not afraid to compare my S.Q. to ANYONE and even if i lost it will be others who will be amazed by what a 500 bucks system rightfully embed can do near their own... The more it will be high-end the more i will laugh"

"Because when we reach a certain sound quality level, we know what will be the cost of a real beneficial upgrade, only at this time we can know it... mine will be from my 500 bucks system going to a minimal 10,000 to 15000 bucks system... why i dont want to do it? not only because i dont have the money but i dont need it really... Pianio sound fill already my room, my system/speakers beat already my 8 headphones... there is always better but i am very pleased... My soundscape is the best i ever listen to anyway..."

"Saying that higher cost can afford truly better S.Q. is common place fact and trivial.... What is less trivial and less common place is knowing how much acoustic can optimize and contribute to the S.Q. of ANY system ....My system value is under 500 bucks all in all..."

"I live very well with my under 500 bucks system acoustically well controlled...i smile if i listen anything better...You know why?"

Hilde45 do you suffer from a mental problem with my presence here?

 

First i am satisfied with my audio system as it is...I said it multiple times...

Second improving when we know what we do is ALWAYS Possible...

Third i even indicated many times how i could improve my actual completely satisfying IMPERFECT system , by buying Dr. Choueri dac, Atmasphere class D amp or Berning Zotl i dont know now for sure, and i will keep my headphone...

Total cost of ugrading to beat my completely satisfying system ( 600 bucks) FOR ME NOW with a REAL upgrade because i know what i am doing and why : 15, 000 bucks... I dont know the price of Atmasphere class D amplification but i trust him as i trust Berning for quality design and for now i dont know what will be better for me ...

 

Conclusion : Dont trail me to cure your frustration about my long posts or alleged contradictions or for the simple reason you want to be at the center and i throw shade on you ... Go consult a psychologist treating obsession.. I cannot help you... I never trail people with this kind of obsessive behaviour ... I like to discuss but with you it is impossible...you never DISCUSSED my points... you are too obsessed it seems to be clear thinking..

You are supposed to be a philosopher , where are your philosophical points contradicting anything i said in acoustic , in musical interpretation or in any general matter ?

NOWHERE...

Anybody can found your annoying posts about me VOID of any content but only there to criticize my posts words count ( for almost three years now with the same observation and by the way as i said from the begining you are right my posts are too long ) or my alleged contradictions now ...

In a word, save for an idiot, or a nevrotic dude looking for my alleged contradictions, the fact that we can live happy with speakers in a dedicated room at low cost dont mean that UPGRADING SOUND QUALITY IS IMPOSSIBLE ...

Do you catch the "nuance" ?

The fact that acoustic installation beat most upgrade dont mean that Atmasphere amplification will not upgrade inferior amplification save for a distorted mind ...

it is enough clear ?

But yes because there is a minimal treshold of acoustic experience satisfaction , it is possible to create with 1000 bucks a very good satisfying system...I did it..

is it easy ?

No...

it takes me 2 years full time...

i hope to be clear...

And read all my posts before putting words in my mouth...

By the way to cure hate i recomment studying, it is very efficient... Try it...

 

@mahgister I remember you saying that no one really needed to spend more that $500 on a system if they were paying proper attention to their room.

Now, you say, "It seems and i know that Alas! i did not have the money to buy proper tube amplification ..."

Are you now asserting that spending more that $500 on audio equipment can make the sound better even if the room is made very very good?

You are out of my league... Ask atmasphere... 😊

I am interested by his answer...

It seems and i know that Alas! i did not have the money to buy proper tube amplification ...

Even class D amplification well designed will cost too much compared to my Sansui alpha to try one...

I can imagine at which level of musicality they could go if atmasphere himself  vouch for them over his own tubes amp design ...

I will be sad and desesperate if i was not already happy with what i own .. 😊

but i dream anyway to be able to afford one in the future...I will read about class D...

 

I just read atmasphere interesting post about class D amplifiers...

very interesting... Thanks... I did not know but coming from the designer mouth it is to be noted..

 

But it take a high qualified designer i imagine to put class D over tube amp... Not any class D design will do... Everybody working class D is not atmasphere... 😊

 

 

This is why tubes are still around- they obey human hearing rules better.

Until recently.

There are now class D amplifiers that can deliver all the musicality that used to be exclusively the domain of tube amplifiers. Because of that I really think tube power is on borrowed time. When people find out the first statement of this paragraph is true, they will be wondering why they have to seek special tubes to make their amp really sing and then deal with the simple fact that a little ways down the road they will have to do it again. They will also wonder why they are dealing with the weight, size, heat and the simple fact that tube power is expensive.

The problem is there is plenty of S. S. and plenty of tubes amplifiers all different with one another...

Then it does not make sense to compare tube and S.S. in general...

We cannot even may be able compare a specific tube design with a S.S. design ?

Why ?

Because these two different designs will respond very differently paired with this turnatble and this dac or this pre-amp or these speakers than with other components...

We must start with a specific goal in a specific room with some idea about the speakers needs...

Or we may start with a specific tube amplifier and buld everything around it...

 

it is difficult to compare...it is the reason why audio is based on listenings experiments every time in different acoustic situation...

Anyway the sound quality of tubes amplifiers can be replicated EXACTLY by some S.S. design at will..

Sansui designed very good tubes amplifiers long time ago and take 20 years to replicate their best tube amplifiers with their top S.S. model EXACTLY the same sound impressions ... They even made the test public with a veil  separating them to impress people... i did not have this site  adress anymore though...

Reading that it was the reason why i bought 2 Sansui S.S. amplifiers...Sansui Au-7700, and one of the first  Sansui Alpha Au 607-i 

Heat in summer created by tubes and short life span of tubes in conventional tube design  push me out of this game... I sold my only tube amp and 50 tubes...😊 The sound was too much S.S. like  anyway compared to my superior Sansui Au 7700 ... 😊

The only tube amplifier i wanted to beat my marvellous Sansui Alpha a S.S. amp is the Berning ZOTL which use COLD tube and with a 10,000 hours life span at least..But the berning sound is not tube like in the conventional way it is described..

Then there is no general comparison between tubes and S.S. it is related more to the crafmanship of the designer, be it a tube amp. or a S.S. amp.

Atmasphere here make for example  stupendous tube amplification if we read reviews and i will not bec surprized if these tubes amplifier beat my Sansui Alpha at all... But not every tube designer is Berning or Atmasphere...And not all S.S. amplifier in the mass market  are build as a top Sansui from the gold era of the company ...