Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?

seems as if you answered your own question and the premise is based on preference.  

like many things- it's complicated.  each amplification method has its set of pros and cons.  to say which is better requires a lot of qualification.  

I built a Pass First Watt F5 and thought it sounded great. Then I built a 6V6 SE amp. Each cost me about $400 to build. The F5 now sits on a shelf disconnected from everything. Solid state sounds like a wet blanket in comparison. I am also a lifelong guitar player and solid state guitar amps sound pretty much like many solid state stereo amps - no harmonics, little dynamic range.  Dull.  Boring.  What Atmasphere says about his class D design is very interesting and I don't doubt him at all.  Looking forward to when something like it can be built by hobbyists like me.  

Tubes are typically inferior on balance if you know how to setup a system well and know what to listen for. 

Was this written in 1995 and just released now? :-)

Tubes are not quantifiably better than SS, in fact, the majority of true reference - class systems run solid state, which has been long optimized to be (subjectively of course) better than tube amps.

emergingsoul - this is just Trolling, plain and simple. The thread is just to elicit arguments and responses, and see your name in 'print'. Grow up. No-one in their right mind could possibly believe the garbage you're coming out with.

Tubes produce massive amounts of distortion, relative to SS - >10x as much, so if you like that, that's your preference. And that's what this is about - preferences.

As previous posters have said; each has its place and its strengths and weakneses. And a tube pre with SS power is a good compromise as each is working in its own best way, particlarly if one is using inneficient speakers, which tube amps, in general, are no goood for. I use an ARC Ref3 into an ESLabs DX4 class D amp driving Maggie 1.7i's, and it sounds sublime.

As for valves - HOW MUCH?!?!  I've just re-tubed (6 tubes) my Ref3 at a cost of £400, so valve amps cost a LOT to maintain/run, and that cost every 4000hrs. My friends 300b power amp, using 4 of them, tells me it'll cost c£4 THOUSAND pounds to replace them! And he needs aircon to keep the room cool and comfortable! And as for tube 'rolling'; what a rabbit hole that one is! No thanks.

how about "do cables make a difference?"

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patently obvious what this is... it starts with bull and ends with sh*t

Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?......obviously you've never heard Boulder ,Gryphon ,Constellation, Dan D agostino  on and on...Maybe tubes makes a person feel cool,who knows but your post is bs

Talk about a roundabout discussion with no consensus and no ending. 

@jjss49 

I was the first member to post a response to this obviously trolling thread, and it was removed this morning, four days later apparently because I questioned the OP's intellect. 

If someone here can point me to a SS Amplifier that will sound EXACTLY like my AUDIO NOTE VINDICATOR SILVER 2A3 Amplifier...I'm all ears!!! 😎

Could it be that the characteristic sound that drive the dislike for solid state amplifiers is most valid with the consumer level products and then becomes less and less of a factor the more thought and care is put into the designs?

My experience is relatively limited, but I found my only tube integrated (Yaqin) to sounds great.  I considered it to be a very high value product and likely superior to most solid state amplifiers with a similar price point.  The Yaqin was a factor in my interest in my current hybrid integrated (Pathos).

I still believe that solid Krell amplifiers have been in most of the systems that I've considered to sound the best.  I had a Krell S-300i for a while because of my experiences in hifi shops with Krell, but ended up preferring my Pathos after rolling some tubes.

I like the sound of both styles. 

But my electricity is over 50 cents per KWH and I don't have A/C.

Makes tubes undesirable.

Yada, yada, yada. Tubes rule and solid state drools. 

jjss49

Good point!!!! I will start doing this myself.

Is it really a contest? I thought it was a hobby. Upon returning from abroad with a modestly priced Chifi tube amp, I sold all my solid-state gear and upgraded (?) to tubes because I like the sound more.

@sbonamo …”Tubes are not quantifiably better than SS, in fact, the majority of true reference - class systems run solid state, which has been long optimized to be (subjectively of course) better than tube amps.”.

Exactly. The classic… measurable vs sounds better to humans. A well disigned tube amp / preamp sounds much better to humans. Solid state test better. If I was a test device I would love solid state gear. But, since I am human, I am so thankful to be listening to tube gear.

I apologize for my two digit IQ. Purpose in my lead off post is to solicit comments from much brighter people than me to better understand merits of why tube amplifiers on balance seem to be preferred, after allowing for operating inconveniences.

I think I succeeded. There are some remarkable posts herein.

I will soon have both tube and solid-state amplifiers in house and since mobility is a problem for me I pretty much buy on faith. 

Regarding reference systems recently mentioned above. While very respectable, these seem to be professionally grown Systems revealing precise characteristics of music being played that may not be enjoyable for longer-term use. They are used to analyze and promote a never ending parade of components. Reference systems I don’t think contain much in the way of tubes.

Appreciate all the responses in this very unique environment.

"I apologize for my two digit IQ. Purpose in my lead off post is to solicit comments from much brighter people than me to better understand merits of why tube amplifiers on balance seem to be preferred, after allowing for operating inconveniences."

@emergingsoul 

That sounds so innocent and self-deprecating, but the fact is that you came right out and said that tubes were better than solid state. It wasn't just a question. Even now you say that reference systems using solid state components are likely not suitable for long term use. Your bias is clear but uninformed.

folks, don’t buy into the b-s from the op

it is a giant circle jerk

@ghdprentice You misinterpreted my point - by subjective I meant with your ears and heart, not measurements (which I made no mention of, but you subjectively jumped to). Net is - modern SS is simply better, better dynamics, better bass, more realistic. See your typical reference system and you’ll see; these folks can afford, Class A, Class A/B, SET, Push / pull, whatever and whan and what do they chose? a SS variant. ;-)

Many reference systems use tubes, and my personal reference system uses both tubes and transistors to produce music that to my ears is more realistic than otherwise, and my house is filled with musical instruments for "reference." There simply is no "net" better or worse based on what somebody can afford...serious pricey horn systems are generally powered by pricey tube amps. 

@wolf_garcia :

..serious pricey horn systems are generally powered by pricey tube amps. 

Good point and observation....👍

I've a pair of vintage Utah horns with their matching woofers that are driven with an ss amp and would agree they'd 'prefer' to be driven with a tube amp....and likely, the pre as well.

I snatched them up for being in flawless but dusty shape in trashed cabs for reference' sake.  In the era they were made, tubes were what they'd get attached to, and would perform best with.

Vague plans to treat them to a 'proper' amp at some point....

You might find this article interesting!

https://medium.com/collectors-weekly/could-an-old-school-tube-amp-make-the-music-you-love-sound-better-a35574739c45

@emergingsoul,

As Wolf Garcia has said, there are many "reference" systems using tube amplifiers of all kinds - otherwise companies like Jadis, VTL and Audio Research (now rescued) would not exist.

The term "reference system" is a bit meaningless. However, to the extent that is is taken to mean systems aspiring to emulate the dynamic range and frequency response of live music, the challenge in using tubes for non horn-based systems of this type is the sheer amount of tubes and associated circuitry needed to generate high power output.

As atmasphere noted above, tubes produce harmonics (distortion) that most solid state gear does not. That distortion is pleasing to many, but not to all. It can also be overdone. I have a tube preamp (Cary SLP-05) and a solid state amp (Levinson 432). I like the "tubiness" of the Cary, but if I pair that with a tube amp the "tubiness" gets to be too much.  In addition, my speakers are not very efficient and have a significant phase angle issue at low frequencies and I find they are better driven by a big SS amp. Also, I do not listen to much rock music, and, quite frankly, my system is not as good with that type of music as it is with jazz, folk, vocal, classical etc.   My point - there is no right or wrong. It depends on the specific equipment, the type of music and personal tastes. And, as others have mentioned, tube rolling and tube adjustments, esp. in power amps, are not for everyone. It's nice to have options to tune the sound to your own particular tastes.

@carlsbad2 wrote:

@emergingsoul Looks like you hurt the feelings of some sensitive sold state guys. They arn’t ok with your prefernce for tube amps.

Oh well.

Jerry

Oh, it’s not really about preference. It would seem there are even some valve aficionados out there troubled by the absolutist stance of the OP, which is the crux of the matter, right? But I guess to some valve lovers seeing it being made into an objective fact that valves rule helps boosting their egos, or something.

Even still, why are so many riled up about the statement made by the OP? Is he an über-authority, a deity? It’s just words, a stance likely meant to provoke. Whatever floats your boat in whatever setup context. I’ve heard great of both valve-based and SS amps; the former (i.e.: SET’s) in particular through passively configured high efficiency speakers, the latter on actively configured dittos.

It may interested some to know that, not only to my ears, SS amps actively configured in some regards have a somewhat more "tubey" sonic imprinting vs. running low eff. passive speakers, not least through the midrange and HF region. This is perhaps more the arena of Mr. Karsten of @atmasphere if there are changing distortion characteristics (or their lack) at play here to account for sonic differences, but in any case the SS amps would see a vastly easier load when not looking into a passive crossover, which is likely the main reason for a deviation in named characteristics.

OP…“Regarding reference systems recently mentioned above. While very respectable, these seem to be professionally grown Systems revealing precise characteristics of music being played that may not be enjoyable for longer-term use.”

Sorry, I am not going to re-read the whole string again. But I think you really nailed it here. The system I had (with high end solid state amp ten years ago), I called my reference system because the moment a new cut came on the venue and mastering was in my face. The level of detail was out of proportion to the musical content. The bass would slap me in the face and chest. This has absolutely never happened in a concert unless some audio engineer turned up the treble / gain too much.

From years attending the symphony, I learned that all the venue clues are there, but the are subtle, not in the foreground, the bass is there but spread out over a half second… not slapping you in the face in a microsecond. 
 

A well designed tube amp gets the gestalt right… it doesn’t overemphasis details. It gets music right. 

@sbonamo 

Sorry to have misinterpreted your post. 
 

But thank you for allowing me to bring up a point why good tube amps outperform solid state. 

@ghdprentice 

Love your main system room, the only thing I would change is the addition of a pool table. How cool to have a party in this amazing space, and addition of a flatscreen.

@emergingsoul 

Thank you. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the space. Fortunately I have a couple OLED flat screens upstairs. I dedicate the downstairs to music, books, and art. 

Luckily, there is one correct answer: tubes are NOT 'better'. 

On the other hand, I find blue much better than red. But sour better than sweet. Both are certainly scientifically documented. 

Unending entertainment!

look at jjss49 post

"you can usually sus out a troll with a few clicks, takes no more than a minute

click username

click system

click marketplace feedback

click responses and discussions started

in this case... joined in 2020, nothing under system, not a single buy/sell transaction on audiogon, zero feedback -- but has started (not responded, to, but STARTED) 176 threads

patently obvious what this is... it starts with bull and ends with sh*t"

This all you need to know about emergingsoul. This guy is irritating!

If someone here can point me to a SS Amplifier that will sound EXACTLY like my AUDIO NOTE VINDICATOR SILVER 2A3 Amplifier...I'm all ears!!! 😎

@voodoofunk You can't even find another 300b or 45 based amp that will do that- for that matter probably not even another 2A3 based amp.

"PREFERRING something (tube equipment) does not mean it is BETTER."

What he said!

3 comments:

1 - I love tubes

2 - I love solid state

3 - Each does some, but not all, of the wonderful things the other can do

(I need them both for different reasons)

@jeffseight Last week you mentioned about the "tubey solid state sound" you use. Could you please enlighten us, not as to brands or products so much as to what traits those solid state amps have and what ICs/transistors they use? e.g., are there transistors that introduce the rich mellow sounds of even harmonics without other distortions? that provide the damping as to tubes? what other traits in the sound are you referring to? And what transistors/ICs are you referring to that must be at the heart of your systems? Any SS manufacturers that are generating a tubey sound must have at the core of their pre-amps and their power amps some unit that is identifiable across the board. Can you please help us with this?    

Could you please enlighten us, not as to brands or products so much as to what traits those solid state amps have and what ICs/transistors they use? e.g., are there transistors that introduce the rich mellow sounds of even harmonics without other distortions? that provide the damping as to tubes? what other traits in the sound are you referring to? And what transistors/ICs are you referring to that must be at the heart of your systems? Any SS manufacturers that are generating a tubey sound must have at the core of their pre-amps and their power amps some unit that is identifiable across the board. Can you please help us with this?

I can, but you have to promise to follow along.

Here are the traits a solid state amp needs to have to sound nice and smooth like a tube amplifier:

1) it needs to have enough Gain Bandwidth Product to support the negative feedback the amp employs across the entire audio band. Depending on the gain the amp has, this value might be 10MHz to 20MHz.

In terms of what is measurable, this will result in distortion not rising with frequency, which is something at which most solid state amps fail.

2) the feedback must be applied in such a way that the feedback signal doesn’t get distorted before it can do its job. To this end, the base of a transistor or gate of a MOSFET isn’t a good place to apply feedback. For more on this see the writings of Norman Crowhurst. If the feedback is properly applied it won’t add higher ordered harmonics of its own, which is part of what makes solid state amps sound bright and harsh.

3) The non-linearities that cause distortion in the circuit should have either a quadratic or cubic nature, so distortion product tends to be lower orders.

This is obviously all engineering. Its doable. There are amps like this and unsurprisingly, sound a lot like a really good tube amp (actually a lot like real music). If you have any in-depth questions about the 3 topics I brought up, none of it is trivial and might require some study to sort out.

Tubes are like a girlfriend I once had - alluring as heck but a bit high maintenance. There were times I wanted to walk away but never did. She is now my wife.

Seems many comments above are talking about artificiality of solid state. Tubes introduce a more realistic Sonic impression versus scientifically created solid state transistor stuff. Tweaking all those electronics to get sound suitable for listening.

It’s no wonder why solid state has such a harsh reputation.

@jumia 

"Seems many comments above are talking about artificiality of solid state. Tubes introduce a more realistic Sonic impression versus scientifically created solid state transistor stuff. Tweaking all those electronics to get sound suitable for listening.

It’s no wonder why solid state has such a harsh reputation."

What a bunch of unsupportable nonsense. 

Tube integrateds and amps generally cost more for a given level of sound quality than comparable solid-state gear. And for a given amount of $$$ you can get more power from solid state than from tubes. If someone has a budget of say $15 to $20K for a system, they can "get more power for their money" with solid state and drive nearly any speaker out there.

But yeah, people simply love tube amps and the soundstage they can provide that few solid-state amps seem capable of so there is that.

I hope tube amps stick around for the long haul. People should always have options, nothing wrong with that.

In 20 years will people be having the same argument about Class A, AB, and D solid-state amps?

Troll question. How old are you?

For me, there's something about the way tubes sound. Little things like bells and other percussion instruments sound crystalline and shimmer in black three dimensional space. It's difficult to explain but it's there.

I love my 1918 Victrola! Beats both tube amps and solid state hands down!

"Seems many comments above are talking about artificiality of solid state. Tubes introduce a more realistic Sonic impression versus scientifically created solid state transistor stuff. Tweaking all those electronics to get sound suitable for listening.

It’s no wonder why solid state has such a harsh reputation."

What a bunch of unsupportable nonsense.

@jumia Actually its easily supported if you understand how distortion interacts with the ear. If you lack that information, then solid state appears the winner hands down.

FWIW, tubes have been around a long time since being declared ’obsolete’ (which was the 1960s- imagine that idea in the face of germanium transistors 🤣). They’ve actually been around longer than when they were the only game in town. So there is an economic ’support’ as well- if tubes were really inferior they would have been gone 6 decades ago!

So you don’t really need to know the engineering about why solid state has had troubles ending tubes in audio. The economic reality is enough.

I outlined what the engineering problem with solid state is in prior posts so will not repeat myself here.

Despite all this I’m not saying that tubes are superior at this point, as you will see if you read my prior posts.

So much nonsense from the self styled experts here.

I know atmasphere is right...

But all tube amplifier dont have expert design as atmasphere evidently own... I will not name de designer of my tube amplifier, but it was  inferior to my " Sansui S.S. amplifiers... to be fair it was low cost tube amplification...And my Sansui were labelled top S.S. design in 1978... 😊

I bought Sansui for only one reason : they designed their Au-series inspired by a comparison in sound with their best tubes amp and designed their Au S.S. to sound as pleasant for the ears as a tube amp...I never regretted it...

The tube amp i bought was not comparable at all... It sound as any S.S. amp i bought before the Sansui and i dislike them, a bit cold and analytical ...

Then Atmasphere is right but not all tube designer had his knowledge...

Anyway i never like any s. s. amp before my Sansui , as the  the only tube amp i bought ...

i am sure atamasphere is right about his knowledge, but not all amp tube or S.S. obey his psycho-acoustic harmonic third as he know for sure ... In my experience not much... but i never owned high cost amplifier... My costlier one is the Sansui Alpha who for me is very good.. Am i deluded ?

i dont know for sure... i love my S.S. Sansui... THen i think some S.S. obey this third harmonic constraint... Only atmasphere know for sure...😊

Actually its easily supported if you understand how distortion interacts with the ear. If you lack that information, then solid state appears the winner hands down.

I'm not sure people really understand what distortion means. How is it considered to be good when listening to music, and tubes apparently doing much better job versus solid state.