Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?
Yes tubes are more involved and require periodic maintenance. Hybrid tube components need not apply, these are really solid state.
Tubes are better for multiple reasons and yet the world and the trade prefers solid state. Those rare audio shops that are geared toward stereo listening and serious connoisseurs tend to Focus more on tubes. Those in business who like to improve volumes tend to offer solid state. All the YouTube channels looking to improve their business tend to be solid state. Maybe because tubes require much more expertise to sell, and there's lesser and lesser to go around. Solid state is more of a fast food commodity.
Tubes are difficult for businesses due to all the maintenance and complexity so you see it less often. Much much easier to sell hybrids or solid state.
"I'm not sure people really understand what distortion means. How is it considered to be good when listening to music, and tubes apparently doing much better job versus solid state"
More nonsense @jumia. I like tubes as well, and use them, but you're criticizing.solid state and asking how distortion is good when listening to music, yet it is known that tubes produce more measurable distortion than solid state devices. I don't know what your point is, but whatever it is, you're not expressing it clearly.
If it sound like a piece of chalk on a board icy cold analytic... It is a caricature for sure...
Or if it sound more like natural warm but realistic voice and sound with a tonal balance ... human voices and piano and violin are my test...
I'm not sure people really understand what distortion means. How is it considered to be good when listening to music, and tubes apparently doing much better job versus solid state.
To the OP, you could "Put your money where your mouth is." With all the brew-ha-ha about tubes, I went out and bought a Melton P/P KT-88 tube integrated rated at 80 WPC to see how it compares to my 20 year old Yamaha RZ-Z9 in "Pure Direct" mode. The Yamaha is rated at 170 WPC with dynamic power to ~540 watts at 2 ohms. My source is an Oppo95. The speakers are of my own creation and include an 18" JBL 2241H, a JBL 2251J 10", and a modified Great Heil. Personally, I'm a stickler for detail and with well under 100 hours on the tube amp, I don't even listen to it in favor of the Yamaha.
I don't give a damn about what people say about Youtube videos. Get a set of good monitors or use good headphones, and you will hear the difference like night and day. The tracks were matched to within ~0.2 dB.
Who says tubes are better. Although I must claim total ignorance, as I didn't past the comment that tubes are warm because they produce harmonic distortion.
@toddalinAlthough I didn't read all of what you wrote, and I will not critique your videos, those songs are very very good. And they didn't sound half bad over my phone. (I'm not being snarky) I will seek these songs out and enjoy them on my system. A true 'Thank You'. ✌️
Better? Neither of them are better? It depends on the individuals' preferences. Yes, the dynamic range compression gives tube amp warmer natural sound. And, yes, its harmonic distortion (even order) also adds richness to the sound making sound more appealing to some people. But that does not mean tube amp is better. My class A/B SS amp sounds musical to me too and it does not require maintenance.
I've been a tube guy forever BUT the new higher end Class D gear ( Aavik, Atma-Sphere , Jeff Roland etc.) gives us the high end tube beauty without all the hassles. Period ! Once you experience the combination of Power and Finesse at the same moment....There is just no where else to go.
Although I must claim total ignorance, as I didn't past the comment that tubes are warm because they produce harmonic distortion.
@pedroebTo be clear, all amplifiers produce harmonic distortion. In general there are two kinds of harmonic distortion- the lower orders (2nd and 3rd) and the higher orders (5th and above). The lower orders are well-known to be innocuous to the human ear. The higher orders are well-known to be unpleasant if audible. This fact has been known to the audio world for some 90 years or so. If you want a reference see the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, 3rd edition, which was published in the mid to late 1930s. I think its available on CDROM.
The 2nd and 3rd harmonics contribute to what audiophiles call 'warmth'. If not masked, the higher ordered harmonics can cause an amplifier to sound harsh and bright, clinical, sterile and other such audiophile terms.
Tubes are not better. As a technician/engineer that started my career in the days of mil-spec tubes that you can no longer purchase, I can tell you no Class A tube amp can match solid state for linearity. They all produce non-linear amplification to one degree or another. However, some people prefer their sound to have the coloration produced by a non-linear amplifier because the non linear output sounds warmer. To each their own. There is no point in buying high end speakers that are relatively linear or neutral if your amplifier is going to introduce non-linear output.
I have never heard SS Amps that sound anywhere near tubes.
1-Yes, that's my personal observation,
2-I have not heard at least 5billion of the ss options out there, so I can't say it doesn't exist, just that Ive never come across it.
3-I am willing to have my mind changed. I used to be 100% vinyl, but now my source is DSD and I chose it because it sounds analog without the hassle of vinyl. I was scared making the change but am so glad I did. Where I don't find any hassle worth mentioning is when talking about tubes, vinyl is a HUGE hassle and it was worth it to me before I found DSD, but I don't consider tubes any hassle at all.
The fact that ss is chasing and maybe catching tubes shouldn't be held against ss. By chasing tubes ss is admitting that it is were the goal is but I don't see anything wrong with them chasing better sound, nor do I think it is impossible for them to reach their goal, or as some has said, have already reached that goal.
Tubes are not better. As a technician/engineer that started my career in the days of mil-spec tubes that you can no longer purchase, I can tell you no Class A tube amp can match solid state for linearity. They all produce non-linear amplification to one degree or another. However, some people prefer their sound to have the coloration produced by a non-linear amplifier because the non linear output sounds warmer.
@barjohnThere is far more to it than just this. What is being ignored here is the simple fact that two decades into the 21st Century this is still a conversation. In any field, when a superior art appears (such as solid state), the prior art vanishes. As an example, no car manufacturer makes a flathead side valve engine anymore- overhead valves offer greater reliability and performance. But for some reason, even though tubes were declared 'obsolete' in the 1960s, they have persisted for over 60 years. That's longer than when they were the only game in town.
Its not just that 'people like the distortion of tubes'. There is far more to it than that. What is keeping tubes around is that people don't like the distortion of solid state (which manifests as harshness and brightness).
I've explained all of this, plus a solid state solution (because this really is all just engineering; there's no 'magic'), earlier in this thread.
I have been a tube user for the past 50 years but recently switched over to a highly regarded SS integrated and I surprisingly don't miss my tube amp. I am using the Boulder 866 and find it extremely musical. I am sure there are other SS brands that I would totally enjoy.
Harmonics are key to understanding why tubes can be more desirable too many.
It's good to have this discussion. Also the ability to control gain more affectively at lower volume levels I think may also be a huge plus. Which I believe explains the Fuller sound at lower volume settings. So it's a combination of harmonics and gain Control that are handled differently by tubes that -yield a desirable outcome.
I need to better understand odd and even harmonics, and how they interplay within a tube amplifier. The article touched on this and was helpful.
I have on order a 300 W tube Mono block amplifier pair. And I've also kept my solid state 600 w mono amplifiers so it will be an interesting comparison.
My speakers require a lot of power, so a set tube amp may not be the best choice.
Like so many of us we all evolve, I bought solid state amplifiers and now I'm buying tube amplifiers. After being unsatisfied with solid state amplifiers, which of harsh and overly clinical.
Convenience. And perceived misconceptions. I buy equipment to listen music, not the other way around. Equipment topography is well below the importance of the beverage matching to the music listened. Utensils have their purpose and are definitely a part of the overall aesthetics, but the food and drink is what is actually important. At least to me.
I have a feeling a pair of 300 watt tube amps are going to show you some downsides pretty quickly. Better get a tube tester for a start. And have a good AC system- even in the winter 😎
My speakers require a lot of power, so a set tube amp may not be the best choice.
@emergingsoulSpeakers that need a lot of power have a lot stacked against them! There's something called 'thermal compression' which is a reduction of dynamic contrast caused by heating in the voice coils. The more efficient the speaker is the less you have this problem.
In addition its not good to make any amplifier work hard for a living. The harder they have to work, the more distortion they make so less detail and likely harsher sound is the result, both due to increased distortion.
Speaker cables also become more critical. This is especially true if the speaker is harder to drive due to a low impedance; all other things being equal an 8 Ohm speaker will always sound better than a 4 Ohm speaker on this account (but of course all other things are never equal).
So you might consider getting speakers that are easier to drive. In the old days when tubes were the only game in town, speakers were a lot easier to drive because the simple fact is that tube power is expensive.
A 300 Watt tube amp will not have hifi bandwidth. The limitation is the output transformer- its very difficult to make one that is capable of full power and 20Hz to 20KHz response (and it really should have 10Hz to 50KHz response to minimize phase shift) at that power level.
I've heard great tube amps, Ive heard bad tube amps. I've heard great solid state amps, I've heard bad solid state amps. And lots in between. I personally like both, but like many people I find a tube pre-amp with solid state power amp gives me a bit of both. If money was no issue I'd have several systems.
I’ve had my NY Audiolab Futterman OTL3s, my VPI HW MK IV table, my Sumiko MMT arm for 38 years. Outside of the tubes, the needle in the Koetsu Onyx, I’m not likely to change anything now.
Caring for, starting up the amps, waiting for them to get warm as I select an LP, pull it out of its sleeve, place it on the turn table, clamp it to the turn table, start up the turn table, place the needle in the groove … is that not more than a bit like dimming the lights, lighting the incense, and making the bed before making love?
Sorta puts solid state and streaming in a whole new light now, doesn’t it? Need a remote because you can’t get up out of your chair? I feel sorry for your wife, what else can you not get … 🤔 😬 ?
I find my tiny flea power class D amps to have some of the subjective character of SET amps (to some degree, of course, but more so than many "traditional" class A or class AB solid state)
They have been ON for the last 10 years, 24/7, just like the rest of the system. The only device I turn off at night is my DAC, because its massive discrete output stage gets quite warm and it also uses more electricity (!) than my amps (really, I'm not making this up).
I've become addicted to the convenience and absence of fuss - the system is ON, all the time, I just need to press "play" and tadaa! music. Even tho I'm constantly trying to improve (as many audiophiles do), I'm extremely reluctant to change the amps.
I've recently added some Duelund speaker cable and it added the slight warmth / bloom / liquidity that I was missing. I believe one could be fooled into thinking the system uses tube amps, in a blind test.
I’m also wondering if music genres would influence the debate. It seems like classical music lovers gravitate more towards tubes. I’ve had both and made the switch to SS a long time ago and never regretted it (although, I would consider a tube pre under the right circumstances). I listen to rock, jazz, and blues and can’t imagine tubes being able to capture leading edge transients the way SS does.
Agree Ralph from Atmasphere, Solid state are almost free of maintenance why they prefer them, Yes Tubes sound different than solid state. On summer I used solid state, winter tubes. They are both excellent if you know how to match them.
The thought that Genres of Music should influence whether to you use tubes or not is absurd. All genres of music except awful rap contains a wide diversity of musical instrument representation. Less so or more so, it’s all there.
S.S. design and Tubes are two very good technology with good and bad apples in each groups...
Generalizatrion means nothing here , only synergy between components for specific ears canals and cochlea at the end count...
I just returned back for refund one of the most acclaimed tube amplifier which do not match my S.S. design on any acoustic count ...
Is my S.S. design better than this tubes design ? NO
Is this tube amplifier badly designed ? NO
Why then ?
Synergy matter...
Then all generalization by most people had no real value...
There is bad tubes design and bad S.S. design...
There is supreme good top design in tube and in S.S. , at the end you JUDGE SYNERGY between your components...
Then all threads about digital versus analog or tubes versus S.S. means litlle , because you listen to the synergy between components and room acoustic ...
Nobody had ever listen a tube amplifier or a S. S. design UNCONNECTED to components and in no specific room in the air ...
In another thread a simplistic mind rejected all Sansui deasign in 67 years of production as obsolete compared to a tube amplifier...
I just bought one of the great tube amplifierfew days ago and it does not even compare to the Sansui alpha in the specific synergy WHERE I USED IT. and the components with which i coupled it...
I refuse to bash Tube amplification because of this experience but some simplistic mind will claim that all S.S. amplifier compared to any tube amp are trash...
Thank you for your question. I have compared tubes and solid state. And haven’t been without the tubes for a while at this point, as I am waiting for finalization of equipment for delivery..
Going back to solid state after experiencing tubes makes one appreciate the specialness of what tubes do for sonic quality. Listening to a powerful solid-state amplifier is very nice but it’s not special. It’s very clinical and still enjoyable. Tube impact is remarkable, it’s interesting to listen to and you want more and more of it. It Is remarkably more enjoyable in comparison. To go back to solid state was very disappointing.
Vocals, horns, classical instruments, guitars, increased music complexity, Rock ’n’ roll Music from the 70s it’s all absolutely amazing. Vibrancy and dynamics and emphasis is far superior.
The two tubes amplifier i listened too were more clinical hugely more than my Sansui alpha...
My Sansui alpha is fluid organic warm and detailed and beat these two by a HUGE margin...
If i was like you i will come here and said that S,.S. design beat tubes design...
It will be a preposterous claim by me and void of content ... Did i do it ? NO ...
Sorry to give you the news , some well designed S.S. dont sound clinical as you said at all... It was the opposite in my experience ...
Then generalization means nothing in audio, there is god design in any category , S.S. , tubes, hybrid : only synergy with components and acoustic matter at the end ...
Not opinions because nobody compared hundred of brand name amplification of any types IN THE SAME ACOUSTIC AND ELECTRICAL CONTEXT AND CONDITIONS ...
But what you means i think is that many S.S. design compared to top tubes design may sound clinical and this is true indeed... As is true the reverse about power, dynamic and details in top S.S. design compared many tubes design ...
I apologize to you because my post may seems rude but i dont means it as an attack on your post... Only as an alternative answer...
my best to you...
Listening to a powerful solid-state amplifier is very nice but it’s not special. It’s very clinical and still enjoyable.
Ralph might partly disagree, but tubes are like tape - there is currently no substitute.
By the way, vinyl has almost zero maintenance once you get things in order. Tape decks need attention.
I don't know why more people don't buy tube equipment. I just know why I don't yet. It is because I want near top level tube equipment and don't want to spend thousands for something midrange that won't give me satisfaction.
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