@bulbous_blues: +1 Agreed. I like a tube preamp with a good Class D amp myself. Best of both worlds. Due to the high cost and low availabilty of "good tubes", I will eventually transition to all solid state. I do have a pair of tube monblocs that I keep around for a change once in a while.
Why is solid state more popular when tubes are better?
Yes tubes are more involved and require periodic maintenance. Hybrid tube components need not apply, these are really solid state.
Tubes are better for multiple reasons and yet the world and the trade prefers solid state. Those rare audio shops that are geared toward stereo listening and serious connoisseurs tend to Focus more on tubes. Those in business who like to improve volumes tend to offer solid state. All the YouTube channels looking to improve their business tend to be solid state. Maybe because tubes require much more expertise to sell, and there's lesser and lesser to go around. Solid state is more of a fast food commodity.
Tubes are difficult for businesses due to all the maintenance and complexity so you see it less often. Much much easier to sell hybrids or solid state.
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It’s only fair to ask: what speakers do YOU have? Since you are asking someone point blank here with many year in membership. I fail to see your “system” under Systems here, or in any of your posts Cin. So… what speakers do you have? No need to post pictures. I take your word for it. Thank you
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@emergingsoul : that’s fine. Interesting system or not. I was replying to Cin Dyment but that’s OK |
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@inna You're correct in that I 'might' disagree. There are class D amps now that have the same distortion signature as a good tube amp and so unsurprisingly sound like them in that they are smooth and detailed, lacking harshness, with organic mids and highs. But more detailed owing to lower distortion. It took 60 years (since tubes were declared 'obsolete' back in the 1960s), but class D has made power tubes obsolete. I am not saying that all class D amps have done this as they clearly haven't. IME class D amps vary in sound quality more than tube amps do. But class D does offer a way to make an amp that sounds very musical- in the way that some tube amps sound musical. But better.
There are engineering reasons why tubes and traditional solid state sound different. As a result, most solid state amps generate unmasked higher ordered harmonics that are interpreted by the ear as harsh and bright while most tube amps have these harmonics masked. This is what has kept tubes in business for so many decades- now longer as 'obsolete' than when they were the only game in town. In the paragraph above is a clue as to how to make a solid state amp that does not sound like traditional 'solid state'. FWIW its very difficult to do that with class AB designs- the problem you run into as a designer is getting enough Gain Bandwidth Product is tricky, as is obtaining adequate Phase Margin so the amp is stable. If you don't know what those terms are, look them up. Class D offers solutions for both. This allows you to run a lot more feedback without running into some of the problems it causes (such as unmasked higher ordered harmonic generation)- it can more effectively do its job. Any amplifier manufacturer should be on notice at this point that tube power amps are on life support/borrowed time because of the tools offered to the designer by class D. If they don't get a handle on it they will be left behind. In ten years, tube producers will be dealing with a vastly reduced market due to the incursions class D is making in the guitar amplifier world- in case you don't know it, guitar amps are the bread and butter of tube producers as they use more 100x more 6L6s, EL34s and KT88s than home audio does.
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Ralph @atmasphere is invested in both with his business. There are also going to be hybrid's such as the Canor AI 2.10. As person that really loves listening to tube amplification I hope it is later than sooner, FWIW. |
@inna Seriously I wouldn't worry about it. There are tubes for now and I think you'll find that if the amplifier is really making music like it should that it will not matter to you if its tube or solid state. You find that if the music is right, the glow of tubes or the glow of a single LED is just as calming. At least that's how it worked out in my case. I concede that the tubes have an arcane, perhaps Gothic look to them but once you hear the music that sort of thing is no longer important. Its nice knowing you have the music and its there without a warmup or worry about a rare vintage part failing 5 minutes to 5PM on a Friday afternoon. |
Ralph, I appreciate your trying to console me but I am still in distress. In any case, so far we have only two kinds of amplification devices - tube and transistor. Ralph, do you think that some other kind of the device can be invented in the future that will be superior to both. Do you have any theoretical ideas ? |
@inna I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Tubes sound the way they do because of the distortion they make. If you can make something else to make distortion of the same kind it will sound the same for that reason. There are lots of things out there you can loosely call 'transistors'. Some are meant for linear operation and some are meant for switching. No-one these days would take germanium transistors seriously except for repairing some old thing. These days GANFETs have lots of buzz around them. Amps that use them have garnered a lot of praise. But in ten years or so there will likely be something else that is better. Maybe someday people will laugh when GANFETs are mentioned. All that you really need to do when looking into this sort of thing is seeing if the manufacturer made some effort to sidestep obsolescence. If class D, is the module easily replaced? If yes, it might not matter if GANFETs are obsolete. Tubes are fun to play with because they are so simple. But from a designer's point of view, they come with lots of limitations. Right now is an interesting time in audio history; class D has taken over everything but high end audio. Its making inroads there too but its taken about 50 years to be taken seriously. IME once you get an amp to play and sound like real music, you stop caring about whether it glows in the dark.
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Really? Please show your work. |
I would love to hear these new gan amps against a proper tube setup. Not saying one would be better just curious. I will say my new to me Lyngdorf 3400 I would put up against anything in my room. Just for the fact of the outstanding room correction and sub and speaker time alignment. Things like this IMO make a much bigger difference than the small ones in amplification. It’s measurable to some extent as well. Says I got a 15% correction. It sounds much better than without. The way I’m seeing it is the sound improved 15%! Lol. |
" @emergingsoul went fishing one day, hoping to catch a bass or another tasty tidbit...... ....what surprised was 'the hit', followed by the reel exploding from the speed strength and heat, hooking the Great White....." It's all in the bait....;) |
Some years ago I was also a photography enthusiast. The argument for S.S. vs. tubes recalls discussions over condenser vs. diffusion enlargers.
The latter provide a softer image with less pronounced grain. Condensers provide a more exact rendition of the negative. However “accurate” was not necessarily what was wanted. If S.S. “degrades” the sound, I keep in mind that almost all recordings are processed using S.S. recording equipment and vinyl is produced using S.S. cutting amplifiers. Perhaps tubes modify the resulting sound in ways that please a lot of people. |
Best post and best written one... 😁😊
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@mofojo I have both and they are close, and I do enjoy them both immensely.
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Zero feedback is one way to get it 'right'. The problem is its very difficult to get the Gain Bandwidth Product needed to support both the gain of the amp and the amount of feedback used and also have the amp be stable; the goal being that distortion does not rise as frequency goes up. Zero feedback is one way to get around that problem. On top of that though, there is always distortion. IME its important to be pragmatic about that fact so a savvy designer will see to it that as best as possible, the primary distortion is the lower ordered harmonics. That's a bit of a trick! The topology of the design has enormous influence on the kind of distortion created. I think there are some solid state AB amps using feedback that meet this criteria. Ayre makes a zero feedback amp that has gotten good comments and Pass Labs has done well too. I think there are others, but not many of them, maybe five or six! I've not done any kind of study in this regard. |
This is why i bought my Sansui Alpha ...😊 And i failed to upgrade it easily last week with a Zotl amp. ... I will keep the alpha....I want an atmasphere amplifier now to upgrade but they exceed my wallet depth for now alas! ... http://file:///C:/Users/Utilisateur/Downloads/hfe_sansui_super-feedforward_system_brochure.pdf |
Transistors transistors transistors. Need more transistors. At least with tubes you could see it and swap out. With transistors who the hell knows what the heck it is. So the manuf company buy some transistors from China or some far off place and they stick it in the box and connect wires to it. Does anybody with a solid state amplifier know anything about the transistors being used. Is it communicated. Nooooooooo, it's never or poorly communicated. At least when you buy food you know the ingredients.
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@emergingsoul “… a guy with a $100,000+ system mixed-and-matched from "best of" lists.”
One of the primary reasons components must be judged on the basis of sound quality.
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Wow Class D as good as modern tubes what strain do I need to smoke to believe that ? And not just flower but concentrate right ? WTF 😳 killing me styles! 🤣
I always enjoy the different responses people have, yes speakers definitively are a major factor as “Bigger speakers = Bigger problems so harder to drive with a nice CJ or VTL amp however for hologram sound nothing beats TUBES and not old crap from the 80’s but modern made gear. The best solid state amps sound tube like unfortunately they cost more to get to that level you can reach with moderately priced tube amp 😎 even order harmonics might not sound better to some but if your really tuned in you can feel it on a subtle level🤓 but hey in the heat of the summer I break out solid state I just don’t get as much JOY out of it even if the sound is nice….”nuff said” |
@luvharbeth That used to be true- no longer. You can now get that from class D if the designer did his homework, and just as smooth and relaxed in the mids and highs as well. |
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OP,
Yeah… Zesto… I know… I would not instantly turn my head and think, “That must be a world class audiophile product.” A British guy in Southern California… great sounding audiophile products… much better than Schiit. I am not in favor of this counter sensical naming. I swore I would never buy a piece of Schiit, but after a lot of research… I bought a couple for my office system. Performance is always first in my mind. |
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@luvharbeth +10 Mike |
Tube equipment may sound as good (Tubes do have the potential to create a lot of noise), but they also get HOT, and that's usually dangerous in households with kids and pets, or ME! Additionally, the initial cost of tube equipment is generally significantly higher than solid state equipment. Nonetheless, tubes have definite appeal. I was going to buy a very pricey McIntosh tube amp, but the thing was so big and heavy it wouldn't fit in my Solid Steel rack! Instead, I bought the latest model Rotel 1592 MK II and it has been great. It runs cool, has plenty of power, sounds clean (Class A/B) and has a tone bypass plus individual bass and treble controls, which I find enhances the sound of recorded media significantly. I should also mention that it was priced thousands less than the Big Mac. Would I have "preferred" the McIntosh? Perhaps, but I have no regrets with purchasing the Rotel. It does the job very well. It also has lots of connectivity options that the Mac does not.
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I am amazed that so little of this discussion is about the music. In my experience, tubes vs ss, tt vs digital, separates vs integrated... In all the examples, the closer to perfection in design/build etc., the closer to perfection in musical reproduction. When we refer to ss sound, tube sound, vinyl sound...we are referring to the imperfections introduced by gear. And hey...end of the day, some cardboard with magnets make the music. It is all a wonderful illusion. That's not actually a symphony orchestra is it? |
@moguls +1,000! |