why do so many discussions turn contentious?

There are many really great threads going on right now that it does give me hope.  The discussion on SUTs with @jcarr participating and even the interestingly helpful thread that's been evolving on Tektons (as the discussion has focused on speaker loads and the interaction with amps).  These discussions have been nearly devoid of animosity over the past couple of days and I'm hopeful that perhaps we are on a better trajectory of mutual comradery and friendliness.  Perhaps we are emerging from the Dark Ages?....which did take centuries ;-)

Too many think they know it all and insist their equipment is the best, interjecting it into every conversation and everyone should follow, if that were the case we would only have one company making amps, speakers and other audio products.

@johnto

we would only have one company making amps, speakers and other audio products.

Sadly this is probably the "mission" of some forum members that only recommend the same company over and over for amps, speakers, and cables/tweaks - for all users and in all situations. With healthy threads like this one I sense we may be making incremental positive changes.

We don't like negative feedback in our amplifiers why would we want it in our forum?

@dabel....+1, and thanks for noticing.... ;)

I'll apologize and beg pardons from the 'collective' for being more than a tad wry in my obscure fashion, but some threads....
...just  nearly beg for the 'cooler of Gatorade' Rx...
...but it dries 'sticky' (I personally don't like any Gatorade a'tall) so just a jive jibe might bring relief....*shrug*

Jury's still out, imho....

3EZpymts has it down; "One Company To Bind Them" would be the answer for some, but would make the whole of AG superfluous....with the exception of ones' personal listening environment....and make for a socialist hell of an audio nature.

I'd rather read us arguing, frankly.  It keeps 'it' lively, one learns who leans towards what, or opting for diplomacy, keyboard kombat, or just just watching the fur fly.

But, I'm just weird that way, and c'est la vie....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OeiYxdteTQ

Ignoring trolls is good advice but that alone doesn’t solve the problem of losing new/prospective members who are turned off by the prevalent bickering and posturing.

Disagreements and opposing opinions can be important catalysts to introducing new ideas and learning new stuff. If only folks could state their opinions and then get out of the way and let others do the same, without trying to prove they are smarter, more experienced, or have a monopoly on the one true path. The train is off the rails when those with opposing opinions are accused of having poor hearing, inferior systems, poor critical listening skills, an inability to understand science, or any of the other worn out ad hominem arguments we see here too often. More active moderation might help, or possibly moving contentious threads to a separate forum where more aggressive debates are tolerated. Ideally, those who want to aggressively argue their points would start their own threads specifically intended for those who want to debate a certain issue. OTOH, if somebody starts a thread with the words “snake oil” in the topic, nobody should be surprised if the arguments turn contentious.

@mitch2 

And quite noticeable that things have cooled off around here of late since one particular individual with the very personality traits you mention seems to have gone back under its bridge for a while...curious dat !

Tea for the Tillerman, Turd for the Troll

@Tsushima1 astute observation 

You mean "jerks", like the kind that would run around with "Im a doctor and voted for Biden" pasted on their forehead?

why do so many discussions turn contentious?

@recluse has the answer.

Even in a post that everyone should agree that 
"  If you wish to disagree, do it in a constructive and mature fashion, no need for "argument ad hominem" we get name calling and bias.

I tried to start a post here that was just vile venting without names so you we would have a place to send people who were just unable to control themselves. Moderators deleted before the first post.

Picture the Indian Chief with a tear rolling down his cheek looking at all the trash

@tsushima1   +2 on the observation.  The board's demeanor is starting to trend friendly ;-)

Three easy we need a sarcasm font so I can tell what's real.  What post are you reading?

@danager  I was referring to @tsushima1 's latest post.

Oh I thought you meant posts by
 
recluse
nonoise
georgehifi
pauly
mazartfan
and myself to name a few

three easy the acolyte to the self appointed king , add to ignore list. i have….

@tomic601 

AMEN!!!

Because of pretentious members who think that:

- They hear better than others despite refusing double blind tests. It makes up for other inadequacies in their life.

- The affliction with the completely mistaken belief that the more something costs, the better it must be, especially with wires and fuses. 

I’ll take the blind drunk test anytime your pouring doubles and you want to provide the brown liquor

@mike_in_nc Great quote indeed!

*Group hug*

Pointless complaining and finger pointing combined with virtue signaling disguised as intellectual impassioned plea. 

I think the circumstance is endemic to people, as opposed to posters within this forum. Perhaps people interested in audio serves as a filter that attracts a certain level of personal evolution and is therefore skewed more toward the negative then another context, but I doubt it.People who are reactive, emotionally immature, spiteful, petty, and all sorts of others values and behaviors that we certainly don’t treasure manifest this level of development in their posts.Since I think that these are the root of what I consider to be misbehavior here, I don’t think they will change simply by giving feedback or pointing things like this out to the problem people. The stuff is rooted in personality and any sort of learning curve or lack of it as folks go through their lives. Therefore, I believe that strong moderating and editing is the only solution, but of course, like all of you, I have no control over that, and I’m subject to however the people that run this want to do things.All In all, I think it’s important to starve attention from attention seekers and not engage with those who want to create toxic engagement. So what I do is just read the beginning of a post and if it’s a rant or something rude, I stop reading. Responding to these folks just feeds them, in my opinion.

Great point. Some are here to be the most popular, contentious, and provocative just because they can. How can one deal with that?

He just told you, don’t respond.

Exactly @frogman.  There's been a number of posts in this thread alone thrown in that are clearly bait to get confrontational.  I refuse to take the bait.  I won't provide the fuel. 

I'm agreeing with the post above mine, noting the futility to confront the problem, which is agreeing with it. Capisce?

Ignore the trolls, believe me, it works. Drives them nuts.

Well, evidently the perpetually apoplectic need another outlet for their vitriol that they cannot shed on politics and the pandemic.

So many of their fellow Americans have died that their audience is shrinking, so why not here?

Cheers!

Rules does this channel really have Rules.

People don't like their belief systems challenged. It's the same reason many wars are started over religion or ideology. And due to cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, it will not stop until/unless humans evolve. You could censor it, but the censorship would also be subject to the censor's cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

If it bothers you why don't you just ignore those posts.

@dabel, we could start by looking how other (audio) forums handle it. Most of which have a stronger and more supportive communities. I’m not saying they’re perfect, but are generally a far cry from the old men yelling at rap music, or digital, or budget cables here.

And, an actual ignore button would be a nice functionality upgrade. However, the contentious discussions here actually benefit Audiogon which is first and foremost a sales point intermediary. The owners don’t need members to get along, they just need them to keep posting to generate site usage data.

When trolls get on a discussion it really is best not to respond. I imagine that will take away their fun.

Most contentious posts involve people with no knowledge or experience posting what they think they know. 
Best joke these days is who thought access to all the world’s knowledge on the internet would make people stupider. 
Legit posters here own high end audio equipment and invest time in listening. 
Then we have the stupid who have never heard high end audio, can’t bother too, and want to tell us what they think they know. 

Pervasive anxiety, insecurity, feelings of dread, helplessness, anger, frustration--any of these conditions that a person is feeling routinely arouses impulsive, at times, self-destructive defenses. Many feeling hopeless withdraw from social interactions and self-medicate. Yet some can vent frustration, giving aggressive rise of intolerance and even devaluation of others. A safe place to do such is online.

Why do so many discussions turn out so contentious? For the same reason worthless sounding equipment get good reviews in magazines. Everyone wants their beliefs affirmed. IME there are several groups of listeners. The 2 primary groups are those looking for accuracy and those who want music to sound good. I'm an accuracy guy, I want to I hear the good the bad, and the ugly. Then there's what I call the Vandersteen listeners. To my ears Vandersteens dumb down the sound so that nothing really is annoying.  So if you want to enjoy the music without detail, Vandersteens get you there. Then there are folks who are hearing impaired. I know a guy with a serious high frequency impairment. He listens to an Asian girl band which makes most people's ears bleed. IMO, that's it, the if it's there I want to hear it, and if it sucks it sucks, then the my hearing is bad, but I want compensation types. The fact is that if you X, you like X, don't worry about other people!

 "A fool is someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".


Oscar Wilde

In our culture, I think that civil discourse is becoming an historical artifact.

Much of this discourse thrives on the passive aggressive nature as well as anonymity. Social Media........Post things you would never say face to face.  

Audiogon is hurting their brand. Either the ought to moderate the discussions, remove them entirely or set it up so if a member asks a question all responses go directly to that member. No more public discussion. The anonymity afforded by these internet discussions has become an outlet for sick people. Fortunately for me the questions I have posted did receive some thoughtful and helpful responses; it is not all bad

+1 @lfssbn1
not just for this discussion!

Could this be more about the characteristics of personal belief than of science?  The same basic issues of religion and empiricism?

Audio-goners:

You might find Paul Graham’s Hierarchy of Disagreement to be of use. Paul is a tech nerd with a number of valuable patents to his name. He noticed that social media by its very nature tends towards conflict because it generates more traffic. 

See

https://blog.adioma.com/how-to-argue-pg-hierarchy-of-disagreement/

and

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Follow these simple guidelines, not much can go wrong.

Read and reread many of the responses and it's easy to agree with many who offer objective, rational insights into the swampy fringe areas. The fringe area as named has persisted since the invention of printing press.  However, now with the availability and freedom of the Net, those  compelled to wrap themselves in self-righteous garb and spread the plague of misinformation find support with little effort.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/08/12/philip-agre-ai-disappeared/

 

Philip Agre, a computer scientist turned humanities professor, was prescient about many of the ways technology would impact the world

By Reed Albertotti

August 12, 2021 at 1:30 p.m. EDT

In 1994 — before most Americans had an email address or Internet access or even a personal computer — Philip Agre foresaw that computers would one day facilitate the mass collection of data on everything in society.

That process would change and simplify human behavior, wrote the then-UCLA humanities professor. And because that data would be collected not by a single, powerful “big brother” government but by lots of entities for lots of different purposes, he predicted that people would willingly part with massive amounts of information about their most personal fears and desires.

“Genuinely worrisome developments can seem ‘not so bad’ simply for lacking the overt horrors of Orwell’s dystopia,” wrote Agre, who has a doctorate in computer science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, in an academic paper.

Nearly 30 years later, Agre’s paper seems eerily prescient, a startling vision of a future that has come to pass in the form of a data industrial complex that knows no borders and few laws.

I have learned a lot from this site in the past few years, much of which has enabled me to improve the sound of my system for far less $$ than swapping out boxes, which may or may not improve my sound. In decades of stereo enjoyment these improvements were never suggested by stereo retailers who view the improvements as too small or not worth their time, so I was never even aware they should be considered. I take advantage of some of them after some logical thinking and pass on others. If some people say they hear a tremendous improvement, who am I to say it doesn't exist? I don't know their environment, music tastes, etc., and mainly their hearing capacity and sensitivity. 

There is lots of humor, some good videos posted, and some thinly (or not at all-only sold direct) distributed brands worth considering discussed that do not advertise. 

I ignore the political nonsense showing the poster's tribalism - anyone who does not think for themselves on any particular issue to me is insecure in their intelligence. As Woody Allen said, I would never join a club that would have me as a member (or something like that). Personal attacks show the same insecurity so I ignore them, and topics where I have no interest. Mostly, I don't take it as life or death, just a passionate hobby that provides thousands of hours of enjoyment. Better SQ makes those hours more enjoyable.

Plus you might meet a friend or two....

@unreceivedogma

https://blog.adioma.com/how-to-argue-pg-hierarchy-of-disagreement/

and

http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Follow these simple guidelines, not much can go wrong.

thanks for this

graham’s framework gets posted here periodically and it is a terrific reminder for all of us

folks who actively participate here (and feel the need to disagree alot) would hopefully take the time to read (or re-read) the important distinctions he makes in the nature of 'how to disagree'

the fundamental framework is of course most helpful in other walks of life as well, much more important than a discussion board on hi-fi

@ Jjss49

yes, it does get posted here periodically: I’ve posted it at least a few times myself, and in spite of the reminders the Triangle doesn’t seem to get heeded.