It's not about money so much as getting quality speakers that benefit from the quality of the electronics. I think it is easier to get quality speakers that can reveal the quality of the electronics than vise-a-versa. Picking speakers gives you the capability of getting the sound you want - your choice of electronics seals the deal or, if poorly chosen, sinks the boat.)
Why do folks spend more on electronics than on speakers?
Hello, just curious on this subject. I have seen threads where folks ask for advice on how to allocate their budget and this topic comes up. I also see systems posted on various forums where folks have $10K-$20K in gear driving $2K-$5K in speakers and wonder why. I have traditionally been a speakers first person as that is where I have noticed the greatest differences. For those that allocate more on gear vs speakers what are your reasons? No judgement, I am just interested in hearing another point of view.
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I have spent vastly more on electronics than speakers. My DAC alone is about 10 times the value of my speakers. Partly this is because I have a small room and listen in nearfield, and so I only need smaller speakers, which are inevitably less expensive. But mostly because I have always found that the biggest improvements - as opposed to biggest "difference" - can mostly be made through electronics before speakers. You can buy an extremely good pair of speakers well below $10k, and for bookshelf speakers well below $5k. But it doesn't matter how good your speakers are, if your sources and amplifiers are unsatisfying, then you will produce a mediocre sound, regardless of how good your speakers are. The better your speakers, the more likely you are to be unsatisfied with the results if the electronics are not up to the task. I have owned a lot of speakers, and a lot of electronics over the last 30 years or so. I have always found that once I have a pair of speakers I like - and these have usually been not all that expensive - the biggest improvements have come from maximising the source - DAC, turntable, phono stage, - and then the amplifier. Throwing money at expensive speakers will usually produce a very different sound, but not necessarily a better one. This was reinforced to me only recently. I was very happy with my relatively modest speakers, but felt that my electronics deserved "better". I bought some speakers literally double the price of my previous speakers, which had been very well reviewed, and which had impressed me in a store demonstration. After living with them for a while, I went back to my cheaper speakers, which were more musical, more engaging, and just as capable of getting the most out of my system, whose value is approaching six figures, of which only a small fraction comprises the speakers.
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My guess is that for many rooms, having more expensive speakers (often correlated with bigger boxes and deeper bass extension) is not yielding the same increase in performance as an increase in the quality of the electronics. In Japan or Western Europe, people have smaller living spaces and it is very rare to have dedicated hifi rooms for people living in big cities. It must be the same in New York, SF or Seattle. It might make sense to have transparent, high achieving speakers like Spendors, ProAc and others at 6-8k and have excellent upstream components rather than the big Wilsons in the living room. And the missus probably wouldn't like to have big boxes in the middle of a 300 sqf living room ;-) |
These are all great points thank you all for sharing. @runwell, to your comment about speaker capability. Are you saying that it is more costly to get quality electronics vs speakers at a give price point? E.g. less expensive speakers are more capable than the electronics driving them?
One other thought, what about componet matching? Wouldn't going electronics first kind of limit what speakers one can use? While if one lands on a speaker they like then they can find the appropriate gear to drive it. |
@mrteeves it is mainly on technical development level. So you spend $1000 could get a pair of decent speakers ,but you spend $1000 on amplifier, which is even can't call hifi. When you need a lot more to catch the pace. The main idea is the technical level and the amount of money is just a expression of the technical level. In other words, they are under development very unbalanced. You have to spend more on electronic device to catch the pace of the speakers.
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Generally, one has more electronics--turntable/arm/cart, pre amp, phono stage, and amps (if mono or for subs). Whereas you can only have one set of speakers. Meanwhile, do we also include cables, power cords and power conditioners? I also go by the philosophy that the source is super critical, then other electronics a which can be more on par with speakers in terms of cost-to-importance. I also believe the more transparent your speakers the more they will show the upstream changes that you make and that’s where you can really tune the sound to your preferences. However, I also think there's another camp of people who go for the "fun factor" when it comes to speakers. That's where they put their emphasis and, hey, speakers are like a sculpture--it's something everyone sees and remarks about. In any case, that’s the way it’s shaped up for me. I’d say my speakers are almost the equivalent of my pre-amp and phono stage; no where near my front end source. But, again, I think it comes down to the number of units you have--and how you want to define "electronics". There is just more "electronics" and it doesn’t usually make sense to spend way more on speakers if they rest of your gear isn’t going to make those speakers really sing.
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Im with Ross B on this one. From my experience, if you have a really dolid front end then many speakers will sound good. I’ve also found that more $ doesn’t always equate to better sound. You can get exceptionally good speakers for $2-$5k. If you buy used, even less $. I could justify used $1400 speakers and $8k on the rest. Everything matters. Dac, source, preamp, amp, cables, room treatments. Overspend on speakers right out oc ghe gate and good luck following through on the rest. $10k spread out evenly will smoke $7500 speakers with $2500 left over for the aforementioned |
@jpan, I should have clarified. In my original post when I say electronics I meant preamp and power amp or integrated as this is the forum for those things. I should have been more clear. I totally get if one added up source, pre/power, cables, etc it’s not too crazy that they could rival or exceed speakers in cost. Espeically if one is using vinyl as the main media. I guess what I was thinking is when I see a McIntosh stack driving something like a pair Q Acoustics 3050i or Kef R7s. No disrespect to these speakers. |
Some believe source matters most (Linn), others say it’s the speakers where the money should be spent. I spent the most on my speakers, about $5500 (also own 2 other pairs @ $449 & $899, both sound terrific for the price), next came the integrated amps, from $1699 to $3250 (I own 3), my turntables cost from $999 to $2100 (I own 5). Cd transport $1299, Sacd player $900, dac $1200. I won’t mention brands to bore anyone. |
After fifty years, in retrospect. One of my first and best sounding sets of speakers were Acoustat 2 + 2… loved them in the showroom. Brought them home… my system couldn’t even remotely power these things to sound good. So I brought home a 75 pound Yamaha behemoth amp… maxed the needles … could not power them. So I got rid of them and bought a brand new Threshold s500… took out a loan… $18,500 in today’s dollars. Then I couldn’t afford the speakers. After that, speakers first, then optimize the electronics to support them. For a decade or so my speakers were down to 18% the total value when I had ribbon speakers (including subwoofers). But overall it has hit at 30% and the most expensive piece. They set the capability… I can’t imagine having a bunch of electronics and swapping speakers to get the right sound. Besides the technology of the boxes changes much faster.. so a set of speakers tend to stay in my system longer.
I now have Sonus Faber Amati Traditional and can’t image upgrading for at least ten years. |
I purchased focal 905 from a local store, they are focal dealer but they will not continue to be the dealer, so they have demo one, sell to me with $600 Canadian Dollars. power amplifier Audio research ref 75 se is also a demo one with $10800 Canadian dollars. pre is audio research ls 25 mk I , I bought many years ago with about $2000 US dollars. Please noted, it use tube 6922, not 6H30. I have listen a lot of 6h30 pres and I just don’t like it. With 6922 I use very old tube,and the sound is just fantastic.
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Thanks. I am a big fan of Audio Research and have owned various components over the last 40 years (you can see my current system under my UserID). The ARC75 is an incredible amp. I am thinking at this point being legendary. It is amazing what great electronics can do for a set of speakers. But, you must ask the question ocationally, “I wonder what my system would sound like if I upgraded my speakers?” … like to Focal Aria or Kanta.
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I can imagine someone upgrading electronics after their initial purchase and having the value of electronics significantly exceed the speakers. At one point I have Sonus faber Sonetto Vs power by electronics worth 2.5 times the purchase price. And then I upgraded to Sonus faber Olympia Nova Vs. And don’t plan any speaker upgrade for a long time. |
@ghdprentice no need right now as I always listen in low voice. |
I also thought that the order was speakers first then everything down the line from there. I bought Wilson SabrinaX, and had a Luxman class A integrated and Luxman DAC. Then I started getting into cables, and a dedicated line and then separate amps and now my speakers are the least expensive component in my system and my system sounds 10x more quiet (in-terms of crap noise in system being eliminated) than it did when my speakers were the most expensive component. Proper set up helped a ton, but so did the dedicated line, and really nice cables that I settled on after trying different makes, and now a crazy beautiful sounding amp a nice Pre amp. I will be going even further with the pre amp and DAC, but all in good time! Fun to discover what great food does for speakers! |
As I always think, the biggest price you paid in the hifi field is not the money, It is the time and energy you spend on it. You think over and over and try different component and maybe waste some time and some money, in the whole process time, you explore a lot of new things, hardware, software, dealer,connection, and finally you can sit down and enjoy the music. It is not the money, it is a part of your life. Do you agree with me? @dancarlson10 |
Luckily for me I just trusted my now friend who is a set up person for how to build a system. I really would have had no idea where to spend time and money. I agree that the people one meets on a journey like this is super cool, and luckily for me my wife is really into it as well. Sticker shock was there, and we are not flush with cash for sure, but as we heard the results we really started to believe in it. My wife and I are both professional musicians so we were dubious at first, ( for example what great feet can do for each component) but we love sitting down with a martini and listening to music and ignoring all the noise on TV now. Yes, it has become a part of our lives and we met a great friend in the process who I paid to set up my system. I totally agree with bigtex22 that speaker set up might actually be the most important component in my system. Lol, and yes that cost me money also. |
I feel 20-25% of your audio system should go to your Loudspeakers having owed a Audio store synergy is key ,and the most distortion by far comes from your speakers roughly 3-5% on average when pushed ,Electronics under 1% cables to 15-20% of your system budget should go there once gone you can’t make it up ,your front end is where everything starts and stops put in at least 15-20% , a high quality integrated amp in many cases better sound ,and better value for the preamp synergy is built in with-the amplifier , less power cords, and interconnects an easy savings of-over $1 k for anything decent . i am referring to a integrated say a minimum of$6 k on up and look closely to the volume pot a silver round Alps can like on prima luna for-example run it’s a cheap $25 carbon plastic conductive pot you loose a ton of low level detail, agood resistive ladder ,electronic,or relays far better . Separates can be better but much more money outlay I separate components plus a good power-cord foreach as well as extra pair of interconnect's. |
it’s all about the fuses... 😂 seriously, it really depends... it is all a chain, so it all matters speakers are the final transducer and different speakers certainly present the greatest variance in how sound is produced to be heard (room interaction a good part of this) but really high performance speakers sound better and better with a superb source and excellent, well matched amplification, so whatcha gonna do?
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In my case, I am upgrading all of my system to an “end state” leaving the speakers for last. Maybe an end state will never actually be achievable but with my Diablo 300 and it’s DAC module that together I adore the sound of, on my relatively modest B&W 803 D2’s, I think I have a chance. Currently upgrading to speaker wires that alone cost more than my speakers (Nordost Valhalla 2). Next I need to add a turntable (probably VPS Prime 21) for which my Diablo has a phono card. THEN I plan to spring for speakers that match the rest of my system which already exerts a sonic character that I love on a variety of speakers. I could potentially look at B&W 802 D4’s (I auditioned the 802 D3’s with my Diablo originally). But a bit worried that the upper-mid-forward presentation of D3 and later B&W’s might not be for me. Sort of makes the bass feel lacking when it’s not actually the case. I want to like them, so transparent with abundant details with imaging so great it’s spooky. But the Diablo character is so clearly present still which is so good. Maybe I’d be fine with the more obvious mids; it’s not as if I dislike the sound. But expensive mistake if not!
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@havocman Don't make the judge til you listen the exactly setup. Some people just think based on money, and I will tell you good system is based on your experience, and not on money. The core is the technical level and money is just the expression. Right now as I told before, speaker technology is far far beyond the one of amplifier. And focal speaker has huge potential. Even we talk about pre, some one under 1k can defeat 10k pre. You gotta go and listen and select what you need. There are so many information around us which could misleading us, that is sad.
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I'm with @mrteeves The only good reason for cutting back on speakers cost is in very small rooms where big speakers don't work well and small speakers are necessarily much cheaper. Don't ignore the cost of room treatments. These can be just as important as speakers and closely intertwined. The cost of both should be lumped together as a proportion of system cost and in my view should be 35-40%, except in a very small room. Front ends are often under budgeted too, except for often large expenditure on a DAC. DA conversion is the bugbear of digital audio, the problems may never be solved, so for the digital addict perhaps 15-20% of system cost is not excessive in the vain search to turn digital slices into holistic analogue reality. For vinyl enthusiasts there can be good reason to spend 35-40% of budget on the front end, comprising as it does turntable, arm, cartridge and phono amp. And perhaps record cleaner. All in all, this leaves no more than 30% for pre and power amps. That may be plenty. It has often been said that transducers are the most difficult components to get right. And for 'tweeks' and snake oil? 0% please.
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Speakers 4k retail , 2k used but basically just open box no warranty. Integrated 5k retail , black friday 4.2k Speaker cable 1.4k, 2 meter pair , bought new. Etherregen plus Chinese clock plus 2 LPS and interconnects 1.4k power supplies and cables 2nd hand. Subwoofer plus interconnect 1.1k Power conditioning and DIY power cables 2k Component isolation , black ravioli bases and pads 3k Apple tv4k plus interconnects 500 Grounding, coherent RTZ 1 and black ravioli black hole with cabling 1.6k Tweaks:contact enhancers, fuses, fo.q tape, ect 1.5k Speaker stands and Gaia footers 600 Speakers are getting down to 10% of my system build. I'm considering a better clock and or better power supply for my switch next.
I stream qobuz and YouTube.
With the right recording qobuz is holographic in my room. Youtube does not run through my switch sounds wonderfully musical with the right recording but not as holigraphic. My amp has lyngdorf room correction.
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@clearthinker good point about vinyl listening and tailoring your expenses to what your end game interest is. I would absolutely agree. As far as the golden ratio of money spent in a Hifi system, I too wonder about this and still do. I started at a 3-2-1 (speakers, amplifier, DAC) kinda mindset, rudimentary and cursory, but that's just way to simplified and I learned that early on. Now I'd probably buy into the 1-1-2-2 (source, DAC, amplifier, speakers with or without sub's), but even that isn't a hard and fast rule. I currently have a roughly 1-1-1-1.5-1 system (source, DAC, preamp, amp, speakers with dual sub's). Biggest point is, there isn't an absolute and there's always exceptions. But a part of me does feel that this hobby is pulling people hard away from speakers being the "be all end all" purchase. Because as we all know you can only listen to one set of speakers, but you can add countless expensive pieces in between. This is also a better way to separate us from our good senses and pocket books. Asking for a dollar ten times over versus 10 bucks all at once. EtherRegen, Innuos Zenith MK3, Phoenix USB, Singxer-SU6, Molo Mola Tambaqui, Technics SU-R1000, Parasound JC1+'s, JBL L-100 75's, JL Audio Fathom 13's I'm now looking at my reference speakers being anywhere from 10-20k. I also have a second system priced 1-1-1-1-1, everything piece costing roughly 3k. Innuos Zen MK3, Musetec 005, Technics SU-G700 MK2, CA Azure 851w mono's, Kef LS50 meta's with dual Kube 12b subwoofers. Don't forget headphones, headphones amps, turntables and cartridges! |
I’ve spent about $20K on my current set-up. About half that was on the floor-standing speakers plus a small subwoofer. I might spring for a bigger/better subwoofer at some point. However, it seems like most of the interesting innovations are in the electronics. Lately, for example, Gallium Nitride is a new (?) wrinkle in class D amps. Or suddenly, somebody will release a new DAC chip with bold claims for improved detail or better imaging. A few companies are integrating optical fiber technology into their server/streamer components. Meanwhile, loudspeaker technology doesn’t seem to change all that much. I’ll take a chance on ordering an electric component for $3K-$5K, then send it back if not satisfied. That is harder to do with a big, heavy pair of loudspeakers. Furthermore, unless you over-drive them, loudspeakers don’t often fail and almost never become "obsolete". Some of us would not say the same about CD players, MP3s, cassette tape decks, AM radio, tuners/receivers ... and maybe record players. Still, on my current set-up (not counting every component I've traded in or stored away), I've spent about as much on speakers as on all the electronics put together. |
In my case, I bought my speakers first. I wound up buying Magnepan’s 1.7i, as that was the best speaker I could find within my budget at the time. I wound up replacing my preamp with a BAT VK-30SE (used obviously) and it was a significant improvement over the Emotiva XSP-1 Gen 2 I bought as a temporary preamp when my PS Audio 5.0 preamp died. After that, I sold my PS Audio S300 (also bought as a temporary solution when my Bryston 3B died) and bought a Bryston 4B SST2. Also a significant improvement over the PS Audio unit. Other things I’ve done to the system such as improved tonearms, cartridges, phono preamp, turntable drive systems have been readily audible and the 1.7i speakers have kept up with all changes to the point that I’m really enjoying the system and not not second guessing my choice of speakers at all.
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Because we are dumb! By far the biggest deviation from the (whatever it is) ideal signal chain is caused by the speakers (and the room). Logic dictates that this is where the best bang/buck can be achived (not that more $$$ automatically results in better results). On the other hand: any reduction in loss/error is a GAIN. So we are striving to make improvments in ALL sections of the signal path. But if someone comes to me with $2,000 in hand and tells me to put together a system for him/her, I would NOT spend $1000 for an amplifier and $200 for cables.
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very wise...👍 these are a wonderful example of a sub-$3000 speaker, that can and will keep sounding better and better if the gear feeding them are 10-20-30 grand... it is absolutely superb and it absolutely (and not subtly) lets better and better inputs shine through need careful setup though, but done right, they put speakers many times their cost to shame |
@rossb, what speakers do you have? Interesting discussion. I do think the speakers deserve the largest share of the $ spent. However, I think we can all agree that it is also the least predictable component to upgrade. With electronics, it’s fairly easy to spend more, get more unless you make a fairly radical change. With speakers, even upgrading within a speaker line will not always result in better sound. They’ can also be the hardest & most expensive to resell, due to shipping. If you really like the sound you’re getting, I can see why you might hang on to the speakers & spend your money elsewhere. |
Ronboco thanks for the recommendation on the Rockports. Not sure if they are in my region; will have to look.. I didn’t actually find the 802 D3’s at all fatiguing, not by a longshot when driven by the Diablo 300. While I found the presentation to be quite mid-forward which seemed to overshadow some of the bass, the mids that were there were so fluid and lush. Not harsh at all. So again I actually wonder if I could prefer this style. I also think it may be just in relation to my 803 D2’s, which are actually quite relaxed in the mids (only when driven by the Diablo 300 though, can be harsh with other amps on certain music). I’m getting older now and it’s crossed my mind that a mid forward presentation might actually offset my deteriorating high-frequency hearing that everyone is prone to as they age…. |
