Why do folks spend more on electronics than on speakers?
Hello, just curious on this subject. I have seen threads where folks ask for advice on how to allocate their budget and this topic comes up. I also see systems posted on various forums where folks have $10K-$20K in gear driving $2K-$5K in speakers and wonder why. I have traditionally been a speakers first person as that is where I have noticed the greatest differences. For those that allocate more on gear vs speakers what are your reasons? No judgement, I am just interested in hearing another point of view.
I think for the almost all audiophiles, whether they admit it or not, it is a matter of logistics and retail therapy. Audiophiles buy equipment because they like to buy equipment. It’s retail therapy for them. Just the simple act of something new is a psychological reward. Come on, admit it, you all know this is true.
😁😊
i cannot contradict this analysis...
I dont suffer of this "buying and plug" pleasure disease it is the reason why it takes me a long time to determine (without being able to listen to them ) the rightful piece of gear...I could not take the risk of frustration and loose money after buying...
Once these choices was done i FORGOT the gear, and focus my attention to their mechanical, electrical and acoustical performance ....
I had never thought seriously about this "retail therapy" or obsession for products and successive upgrade at this view angle, i thought that it was only ignorance, or laziness, or the fact that few people dont own a dedicated room ,which is for me the greatest asset ,but effectively if an audio system is not acoustically optimized in his room, there cannot be always a great musical satisfaction because will focus theior attention always on the sound defects or too many defects... Then upgrading and the pleasure to buy something play a role...This change the body place sickness...
Then buying give to the brain his reward , but this question "why" is a mix of many factors not only "retail therapy" but you make a point....
There is only two way the brain release the "rewarding chemicals" at the end : buying a new piece of gear, a new tweaks, or buying new music...
Then we must solve the three embeddings control problem, mechanical, electrical and acoustical, if not, what i call the upgrade obsession or " the retail therapy" will replace the acoustic optimization process...
And the acoustic optimization process ask for a "method" not for the accidental addition of external "tweaks" even if some works....I dont doubt it much because i replicate many at low costs... 😁😊
Most tweaks though are minor modifications compared to the acoustic and psycho-acoustic method...Sometimes very interesting and low cost yes...
But tweaks are not a method of listening nor an acoustic method...
I am going to try to answer your question with a completely different answer than every other one I have seen. You asked WHY. Not what makes the most sense, but WHY. Why do some people have far more money in electronics than speakers.
I think for the almost all audiophiles, whether they admit it or not, it is a matter of logistics and retail therapy. Audiophiles buy equipment because they like to buy equipment. It’s retail therapy for them. Just the simple act of something new is a psychological reward. Come on, admit it, you all know this is true.
That brings us to logistics. Most amplifiers, and almost any other product are easy to buy, pack, and ship. There are 300lb amplifiers but they are the exception. Even a 75lb amplifier is fairly easy to pack and ship. Speakers are a pain. They are heavy, they are awkward, they are difficult to ship, if buying used, shipping can be a substantial part of the price. But the audiophile needs his retail therapy fix. The best choice would be to upgrade the speakers, but that take a lot of effort. Even selling a used pair is a lot of work. So, instead, the audiophile upgrades their DAC, their pre, adds some high end cables, and before you know it, those $5K speakers which represented a large portion of their system, are now $5K speakers in a $30K system.
10 years spent seriously building a ‘budget’ system on mostly used equipment, I ended up with a 10% speaker (LS-50) that really isn’t worth upgrading, yet. Along the way I went through 5 amps, 4 pre-amps, three sets of speakers, three brands of cables, 4 DACs, tubes, transistors, old school, new school, you get the picture.
None of the equipment was cheap, or bad for that matter. But the one thing that was apparent was that speakers made the least difference. However, the best speakers had the greatest intolerance for poor quality. Components that sounded great on cheaper speakers sounded bad on really good, resolving speakers. Conversely, all the speakers sounded good on good equipment. And full range is never cheap, so I live with the sub for when it’s needed.
Most importantly, once a certain quality threshold is met, price and performance are not as coupled as one may think, which is why few end up on the same path when it comes to price for a particular component.
to say the speaker selection/purchase is the most important and most impactful towards the goal of great sound in the room being used is true... but it is not the same as saying the speakers need to be the most expensive component in the system...
A system is a total of its parts and the end result hopefully would be positive but I am from the camp that speakers are the most important purchase and should be where the most money should be invested. I have had audiophiles over and one told me that he thought that I could put any components on them and they will sound good.
These "what is the most important component" threads put me in mind of the question, what is the most important your shoulder, your arm or your hand. It takes a whole system to let you hug your wife. Everything matters.
@Ryder In general, I think your assessment is pretty accurate.
Regardless of cost or allocation of costs, I think, aside from one's overall budget, some important things to consider:
1) Matching your speakers to the size, aesthetics, and overall function of the space they will be used - a dedicated audio room/space or to be shared with other interests of the home. What types of music and at what volume levels will they be required to perform.
2) Match the amp/preamp or integrated amp to the speaker's output, impedance and and expected performance.
3) Make sure all is approved and sanctioned by the boss (I'm lucky to have an understand ing boss) :-) ..........Jim
If that is true to the music system " speakers determined allover level what you can achieve",
Then I can talk the car like that "the wheels determined allover lever what the car can go". Is that a funny judge, right?
But the logic for above 2 sentences are exactly the same.
The true story is any parts matters as a system, and if you want the system to be excellent, the key point is match, the second point is match, the third point is still match.
Just because a speaker has a high price tag, does not mean it will sound better. I heard a pair of 50k speakers. Ran off the top of the line parasound mono blocks a top of the line srteamer, DAC. I hate to guess the package cost. I liked my cheapo system by far. I have El Cheapo DYI speakers and have heard much cheaper systems that were awesome with 5k speakers on much lesser electronics. Possibly component matching mattered? Also music taste and ears are so different.
No clear rule on the allocation of funds for the amp, equipment and speakers. Personally I would allocate the highest budget on both amp and speakers. In my book ;
But it is not true completely ... Most love speakers too... 😁😊
But they hate the time they must need to give learning acoustic to control the system/speakers room...
Time is the last thing people want to give ...They prefer "buy and plug" with nothing to study...For some money is not a problem at all... The more rich you are the more busy you are also....Acoustic is not simple matter to understand...it was easy for me because i am retired...
I dont speak about purchasing costly acoustic panels here... 😁😊 Anybody can do that... But it is not enough for me ....
here is some perspective 40 years professional experience
speakers determine the overall level of what you can acchieve
the electronics and source will derive what the speakers are capable of
great speakers can not compensate for difficiencies elsewhere
long story short the electronics preserve the integrity of the signal the better you feed the speakers the better the sound from those loudspeakers
All you said is perfectly right...
But it lack the essential: no speaker beat their room...
For the speaker to work at his potential peak qualitative level the room must be not only treated in a classical sense but mechanically controlled to serve the needs of the speakers acoustically and to serve also the listener psycho-acoustically ( Schroeder frequency for example must be adressed and many other problems) ...
Then the room acoustic is the last and more important tool...
It is not my opinion it is Helmholtz teachings...He never sold anything but he was the father of modern acoustic and psycho-acoustic science...
He sell something in fact few people want to buy: science but more than that necessary listening experiments very costly in time more than in money though...But time is more precious than money, it is a too higher price to pay for most alas!
Would it be easier to get the most expensive speakers you can afford and then gradually upgrade electronics to get the sound your happy with from said speakers?
Unlikely a well optimized system… but possible. I think you have to start with a thought about what you want to spend… and then audition and make decisions that balance and optimize the sound. About thirty years ago I found some extremely good sounding speakers… Apogee Slant 8’s that cost around 10% the cost of my whole system. The ribbons were simply stunning, particularly for the money. I had them for 15 years. They were not perfect… but they sounded well beyond their cost.
I eventually got speaker that are at the 25% range ($32K). There is no comparison… these are not in the same class. But you build a system one piece at a time… sometimes the proportions get extreme.
For me, a CPA, I allocated half of my system budget on speakers and half on everything else. That said, I have cycled through five pairs of high end speakers over the past seven years to find the best fit. Side note, all bought used except one pair and broke even except the new ones.
Finally found the best fit for my gear and room in the form of Magico A5's, supplemented with the B&W DB3D placed behind my rig firing to the side walls. Fantastic.
Gosta I agree, the 802’s may not be too mid-forward. Just more mid-forward from what I am used to; it is all relative.
I did read a recent review of the 802 D4’s that noted the bass and presence would be lacking in any room larger than 430 sq ft. If this was true, with the bass lacking, the rest of the range would be accentuated.
spending money on a passion is like many things in life, it can be done smartly or stupidly, with planning, consideration and knowledge, or on a whim, by bad influence, and with ignorance
this balanced against each person’s sense of proportionality, priorities and capability to afford expensive things at whatever level
done well, in midst of a well prepped room, a well chosen, well understood existing system, smart money spent can and does make a huge difference
all the garbage threads and posts here aside, becoming informed on how to spend ’smart money’ in pursuit of music and its reproduction is at the heart of why this place exists and matters
Thank you all for the great comments. This has been a very informative dialogue. I can understand the source first mentality and it does make sense in a way but then one is just pushing the limited factor down to the transducers. The argument for that seems to be, great speakers are cheaper than great electronics; not sure about this personally. I think most would agree that all the parts of the chain are important.
I have always been speakers first because they are so obviously different in sound that it is easier to land on a preference. Also, the space issue. E.g. choosing a speaker appropriate to one's listening environment. Another reason I like the speakers first approach is, if on a budget, it is more fun to me to over spend on speakers and then level up the rest of the system over time. Each new addition brings more out of the speakers and one feels real progress; IMHO. The inverse of this would be, I have awesome gear and then drop in the right speaker and I am done. For some, that might be more appealing but I like the journey as much as the destination.
What sparked this topic in my mind was when I saw some systems in the high four to low five digit range and way their resources were allocated. I wondered about the decision to go something like 80/20 pre/power over speakers. I have literally seen where someone has $10K+ in McIntosh or PS Audio driving a $1K-2K pair of speakers and I thought it odd. I get when you get to a certain level of speakers it’s hard to move up, cost vs performance wise, and spending on electronics makes more sense; I’m kind of there myself. What I don’t get is if the whole system budget is like $15K and someone spends 10%-20% of it on speakers. Are speakers in this price range that good? Maybe that should have been the question all along.
Had a pair of $15K QLN, sent them back and kept the $5K QLN Sonora's.
Just plugged in a pair of $1700.00 GoldenEar BRX into my main system and love them. Love the sound stage, depth, detail. Yep made in China and have a great Crossover. Will the replace the QLN Sonora, not sure yet but they will be in one of my systems.
Great quality and sound is no indicative of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you spend if the speakers are matched to your system.
AH Qualiton X200, Simaudio 280D, SPL Phonos Voltair, Bel Canto e.One CD3T, REL Tzero x 2. Clearaudio Concept DC, Nagaoka MP 500 Cart, Throens TD145 MP200, LeJonklou Giao 2. All Signal Audio Referance Speaker, Interconnect and Power cables. Heed Elixer for week day listening. QLN Sonara, Raven Audio CeLest Towers (wonderful 2.5 way) and now GoldenEar BRX stand mounters.
Less than most more than many $$ wise and sounds sounds simply wonderful.
Because every upstream upgrade I make reveals itself in my modestly priced speakers (Ohm Walsh 2000 with a pair of Vanderstein 2Wq subs). Speakers I would upgrade to that I believe would be a significant upgrade cost more than I can afford. Electronics and cable upgrades I can manage, for the most part.
I think people spend absurd amounts of money because they can or because they are always thinking there is something missing and off they go credit cards in hand to find the holy grail. Bad music files, bad room treatment, no DSP and bad advice means bad choices and never satisfied.
spending money on a passion is like many things in life, it can be done smartly or stupidly, with planning, consideration and knowledge, or on a whim, by bad influence, and with ignorance
this balanced against each person’s sense of proportionality, priorities and capability to afford expensive things at whatever level
done well, in midst of a well prepped room, a well chosen, well understood existing system, smart money spent can and does make a huge difference
all the garbage threads and posts here aside, becoming informed on how to spend ’smart money’ in pursuit of music and its reproduction is at the heart of why this place exists and matters
Many times speakers are bought with "peer" comments dictating what is "good". Now I think your speaker is the most important part of the chain because no matter how expensive of wonderful your electronics are you can't make junk sound great. You can buy pretty cheap amps today that sound really good with moderate priced speakers built right. Just finished going over a set of KPT-456's in my shop and with a Crown XLI800 I have under $2,000 invested in a really good sound. I think people spend absurd amounts of money because they can or because they are always thinking there is something missing and off they go credit cards in hand to find the holy grail. Bad music files, bad room treatment, no DSP and bad advice means bad choices and never satisfied.
**** Source first. You can’t retrieve what you’ve lost no matter what speaker you use. ****
And, the same idea applies to the next step in the chain, electronics. Of course, this assumes that there are no major issues with how the speaker in question interfaces with your room acoustics, or issues with electronic compatibility.
IMO, this is one of the most important truisms of successful system building. Any component further down the line has the potential to make a positive contribution to the final sound, or to make matters worse; even (especially) when that component is of superior quality in absolute terms. The more transparent that the next component further down the line is, the better that it will reveal the problems with the component(s) that preceded it. I know some will disagree, but in my experience and generally speaking, there are more speakers available at reasonable (for me) prices that are sonically satisfying and that approach what is ultimately possible in the ways that matter to me, than there are electronics that I can say the same for. This is why some spend more on electronics than on speakers. The key is a balanced approach.
$$ are not as significant as sound signature of a speaker.
Also, specifically, what a speaker is capable of delivering.
For example, a nice pair of ESS Quad 57s at around $6K are a destination speaker for many. Or a pair of excellent $7K monitors.
For larger scale, a pair of $30K big floorstanders. It all comes down to if a speaker sounds like music to the individual.
However, a speaker is limited to what it is being “feed”.
The source then the electronics which amplify.
IMO, the most important and most vital are the two transducers. In my analog only system, the cartridge and the speakers. And those two are most responsible for the ultimate SQ. Again, the $$ are not as central as what sounds good to you.
My two cents, from a guy who commercially designs (and sometimes even makes money :-)) on electronics. But at the end of the day, speakers -- in my opinion -- make by far the largest difference. Speakers have many many opportunities to grossly distort the signal - flexing cones, resonating cabinets and baskets (the term for the driver frame), crossover trade-offs. PLUS !!! the simple fact that to reproduce bass and volume demands size -- and to avoid dopplering of the entire cabinet, mass and size, which cost money. Lots.
Now, several posts above point out caveats. It is possible to make an excellent, small monitor. In a small room, with chamber music, they may fit your needs and be had for 1/3 to 1/4 what a similar quality full range monster might cost. So there are exceptions.
Also it was pointed out that one must distinguish between "better" and "different". True again, but i’ll state that many speakers are just "better".
I am designing a new integrated amp right now. Probably my first "from scratch" design in 25 years, employing all new method that were impractical even 10 years ago. So i get lots of opporutnity to hear inexpensive ($3-4k) electronics with my "big" speakers as well as my usual costly stuff (prototypes of my best products from years past) on my smaller, cheaper, and yes, "worse" speakers. Clearly worse, BTW.
So i have over the years become more and more in the camp of "speakers are #1". Now, the sum of turntable, DAC, digital source and power supplies, amp, speakers may exceed it in aggregate, but the speakers ought probably take a big chunk.
One more caveat: its easy to make lousy sounding electronics. but its also possible to make GREAT sounding ones for a few Thou....but many sacred cows maybe slaughtered on the way.
but if I had not built my own speakers my spend would be around 1/3rd in room acoustics, electronics and speakers.
If I take into account, the stands for my stand mounts and sub (speakers I also built), I’m probably close to the same as @erik_squiressays about his system spend.
In my case though I would also bundle in the furniture I’m building in with the room acoustics budget (which I have so far built).
Bought my current speakers in mint cond. back in 2005 for $2500. I don't know what the list on them was back then. The new version lists at $7500 per pair.
At that time I had a Jolida tube integrated and Jolida tube cdp. Liked the sound.
Upgraded to Wells Majestic integrated, kept the speakers. Liked the sound even better.
Upgraded from Jolida CDP to Moon transport feeding Aqua La Voce S2 DAC. Kept the speakers. Again, nice improvement!
Upgraded from $3500 Wells Majestic integrated to $6000 Hegel H390. Kept the speakers. Massive improvement! It was at this point that it became clear that I'd never really heard what my speakers were capable of!
This week: upgraded Moon Transport to Jay's Audio transport. Too early to report definitively but at the onset, resolution, PRaT and bass control are all noticeably improved. We'll see what happens with burn in but I still have no reason to sell my speakers!
Why do some spend more on electronics and speakers than on their ROOM ACOUSTIC?
I dont speak of money only here , i speak more of tuning TIME....
The same people spend more money on upgrades than time in tuning their room...
For sure all people dont have a dedicated room, but this will not change the truth : acoustic matter more...
Focus on electronic is the reflection of consumerism market conditioning... Reviewer need to sell you something... Acoustic will teach you something...
We dont listen to a piece of gear alone but to a system +room...
It is acoustic and psycho-acoustic which will explain to you what is a SOUND and how to control it in a room...
Not the owner manual of your dac, speakers or amplifier...
Why idolizing gear price and ignore the essential : acoustic...
My 500 bucks system is a proof of what science claim: acoustic explain sound not electronic...
The Egyptian and the Greek learned how to control sound in a room before the invention of the gramophone... Even before Helmholtz...
😁😊
I know for sure that this truth about acoustic can be an inconvenient one ..... Especially for those who has spend big money....And for those who like with passion with good reason for sure their excellent gear...
Once you get to a certain level in speakers, it will take a LOT to "max them out" with the backing gear. Say you’ve found a high-end speaker with a voicing and aesthetic you love, you can live with its trade-offs, and it’s the right size for your chosen domicile. "Upgrading" from this could be a nightmare, because it can change EVERYTHING you’ve been building synergy towards, and there’s no guarantee the new speaker will be a good fit for your room. It’s not like dropping in a preamp - you’ll have to position, reposition, and re-reposition the boxes and seating. It could well set your system into a tailspin that takes lots of time (and money) before settling again. And don’t forget about burn-in. If you have to swap out or return speakers, shipping is an order magnitude more hassle than with electronics components.
That’s why some of us choose to keep the speakers we’re happy with and pump more money into the upstream.
That said, your post specifically cited $2K - 5K speakers, and honestly - no, I could probably not stay put & happy with that.
I see a lot of my amp cost this and my speakers are this much.... it doesn't really matter what something costs. It can still be crap. Or it can be an unbelievable value for the money. I'd like to think my system is a sum of the latter.
I'm in the speakers first camp, although I would caution that you need to listen to your choice in different places with different electronics. Over spend on speakers you love and they will pay you back day after day. Electronics can be upgraded easily, particularly analog or digital front ends.
Agree 100% with @ghdprenticein two respects: I also am a major ARC fan and a speakers first guy. ARC builds synergy into all of their products.
Caveats: In no way am I saying that other top shelf manufacturers don't have synergy. And, overspending on speakers is a personal choice and may not fit into what is happening in your life.
Ronboco thanks for the recommendation on the Rockports. Not sure if they are in my region; will have to look..
I didn’t actually find the 802 D3’s at all fatiguing, not by a longshot when driven by the Diablo 300. While I found the presentation to be quite mid-forward which seemed to overshadow some of the bass, the mids that were there were so fluid and lush. Not harsh at all. So again I actually wonder if I could prefer this style. I also think it may be just in relation to my 803 D2’s, which are actually quite relaxed in the mids (only when driven by the Diablo 300 though, can be harsh with other amps on certain music).
I’m getting older now and it’s crossed my mind that a mid forward presentation might actually offset my deteriorating high-frequency hearing that everyone is prone to as they age….
Interesting discussion. I do think the speakers deserve the largest share of the $ spent. However, I think we can all agree that it is also the least predictable component to upgrade. With electronics, it’s fairly easy to spend more, get more unless you make a fairly radical change.
With speakers, even upgrading within a speaker line will not always result in better sound. They’ can also be the hardest & most expensive to resell, due to shipping. If you really like the sound you’re getting, I can see why you might hang on to the speakers & spend your money elsewhere.
I bought my speakers first. I wound up buying Magnepan’s 1.7i, as that was the best speaker I could find within my budget at the time.
very wise...👍
these are a wonderful example of a sub-$3000 speaker, that can and will keep sounding better and better if the gear feeding them are 10-20-30 grand... it is absolutely superb and it absolutely (and not subtly) lets better and better inputs shine through
need careful setup though, but done right, they put speakers many times their cost to shame
By far the biggest deviation from the (whatever it is) ideal signal chain is caused by the speakers (and the room). Logic dictates that this is where the best bang/buck can be achived (not that more $$$ automatically results in better results).
On the other hand: any reduction in loss/error is a GAIN. So we are striving to make improvments in ALL sections of the signal path. But if someone comes to me with $2,000 in hand and tells me to put together a system for him/her, I would NOT spend $1000 for an amplifier and $200 for cables.
In my case, I bought my speakers first. I wound up buying Magnepan’s 1.7i, as that was the best speaker I could find within my budget at the time. I wound up replacing my preamp with a BAT VK-30SE (used obviously) and it was a significant improvement over the Emotiva XSP-1 Gen 2 I bought as a temporary preamp when my PS Audio 5.0 preamp died. After that, I sold my PS Audio S300 (also bought as a temporary solution when my Bryston 3B died) and bought a Bryston 4B SST2. Also a significant improvement over the PS Audio unit.
Going by original MSRP of the gear (I did buy mine used), my amplification to speaker ratio is aproximately 80/20, much higher than that if I had bought equivalent new amplification at today’s prices.
Other things I’ve done to the system such as improved tonearms, cartridges, phono preamp, turntable drive systems have been readily audible and the 1.7i speakers have kept up with all changes to the point that I’m really enjoying the system and not not second guessing my choice of speakers at all.
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