My cables cost $6700. When I put them to my ears, I hear nothing.
So the answer for the $2500 cables is the same. Nothing. No sound.
So the answer for the $2500 cables is the same. Nothing. No sound.
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Never thought cables would make any significant difference due to the short runs. But with all the talk about how quality cables improved the sound, bought used Sonoran interconnects and Morrow phono cables off sellers on the Audiogon web site. Well to my pleasant surprise both made a significant difference. The noise floor lowered and more music and subtlety emerged. The notes are now distinct and seem to come from a deep black space. My speakers are a 30 foot run away from my system due to room aesthetics, so super high end speaker cables are out. But one way to go is to buy used (broken in) and see if you hear a difference. Takes out the high price must be better because I just spent a ton of money bias from your cable audition. |
Uh, I would guess they SHOULD "sound" like nothing. Otherwise, you paid 2500 for something to add "sound" to your system? Exactly what "sound" were you looking to "add?" My customers were always trying to NOT "add" to the sound of their systems, but hey, that was in the 1970’s, so what do I know? Here’s a crazy suggestion: Have your dealer set up a pair of Magneplaner speakers IN YOUR ROOM and see what you "hear." My guess is that, depending upon what other "sounds" you have added to your system, you will hear the music, period. Imagine that. Cheers! |
I try not to buy into these post, but OK, here goes. A lot of people saying about lamp/zip cord: well you are certainly free to do what you feel is best for you and your system, and if you want to run .10 cents a foot lamp cord between your several hundred dollar speakers and likewise components, feel free. Or maybe your system is just not resolving enough to hear the difference, or maybe your ears are beyond their years or you have some hearing loss, its understandable. Or bigger, maybe you don't know what to listen for? When I was in my early audiophile years, my late teens and early 20's, I always swore I could not hear a difference in MOST cables, not all. Then a friend who was older and in the hobby for a long time taught me what to listen for, we did some blind A/B and listened for other details. At first I was listening to see which piano note sounded better, or which bass note sounded deeper, that was it, I didn't know any better. That is one part of it and cables will make a difference in those things, but often the differences are much more subtle. However, when I learned how to listed I heard a whole new world and I heard individual instruments open up with separation between each one and clear focus, I heard a soundstage. For the first time I could hear notes coming right out of a sound hole of an acoustic guitar. The differences I hear on notes was also more natural, less edge, now there was a clean defined note with a black background. Now I could hear the differences between a $500 pair of cables and a $1000 pair of cables. Yes, I agree when you get into that price point of cables, the differences are more subtle and you have to know what to listen for and your ears and system have to be equipped to hear and transmit those subtleties. These differences are things you can't measure or show on paper. I recently spent $2500 on a bi-wire pair of Purist Audio Venustas Luminist, replacing my 20 year old Purist Audio Musaeus and I am glad I spent the difference, the benefits were worth it for me and what I heard. |
sugabooger"There is no reason for low capacitance for high efficiency speakers." This is the sort of funny misinformation and error that is becoming increasing common and frequent from the "new" users who have recently welcomed themselves to this site with odd unusual "scientific" rules, pronouncements, and assessments - all straight from the "bible" of what some now call scientism or measurementalism. |
You can listen to someone like who can't provide any justification for a statement like "use low capacitance cables for high efficiency speakers", be taken in, lose your money, or you can accept some basic realities. The efficiency of a speaker has no bearing on how a cable will interact with it. The impedance of the speaker may, the output impedance / dampening of the amplifier may. The efficiency not at all. Cable capacitance is like putting a capacitor across your output terminals. I would love for someone to justify how that impacts high impedance speakers as a rule? Cable inductance can roll off your high frequencies though. Unfortunately, to get low capacitance, you need high inductance. So if you like rolling off the top end, go for it. Realistically it is not going to make much difference to likely older ears. The problem jumia, is some people will say black, just because someone else said white, even if there is no reason. When you raise the question, they don't address it, they just make insults like the last 4 posts. |
Speaker cables are no different than any other component in your system--you must try them out in YOUR system to hear the results. It is true that you can pay thousands on cables and it can be a complete overpriced waste. But this is true of EVERY component in your system. That is why you TAKE YOUR TIME and try stuff out without committing huge loads of cash. When we upgraded our cables (interconnects and speaker) from a carbon wire to Cardas Clear, the difference was so substantial that even my audio-pessimist wife DEMANDED we fork over the $10K for them. When we AUDITIONED the Cardas BEYOND cables, she again DEMANDED we trade up to this $20K set. And I agreed. TRY THEM OUT. SEVERAL SETS. Keep in mind Nelson Pass’ advice on cables, however: the cables should cost several times LESS than the component they are hooked up to. We have $30K monos and $60K speakers, so the cable cost made sense. |
" Malman, it’s not surprising that you are in the zip cord camp, IF your system is setup for listening as it is pictured in your system profile! " One of the more amusing things to me with people that stop in from the Klipsch forum who followed the Super MWM build thread there is the expression on their faces when they first hear these while they watch the hair stand straight up on their arms at times. My goal was very high fidelity, great efficiency and to sit right next to the 32’ organ pipes or the Cellos or anything else, which it does quite well. It is like that sleeper daily driver hot rod that just waxed your $350,000 supercar. It may not look real pretty but it is all business. If you are near southern middle Tennessee you are welcome to PM me and stop in for a listen and see for yourself. |
1+++++ for Silversmith Fidelium!!! $1200 for an 8’ pair. $175 for bi wire adaptor. I replaced $6K great cables that are now junk. Read that others have replaced $20-$30K cables in $600K and $1 million systems. Fideliums smoke all. They were the biggest improvement in my system ever! 30 day return policy. I am only surprised that I am only the third to rave about them in this thread. |
To me its all sooo convuluded. It seems an understanding of how the signal is lessened as it progresses thru a cable. therefore, to minmize this, it requires great design to overcome complex tech challenges, and this costs money, otherwise we could all use telephone wire. So please focus on how the signal is impacted if not treated better via more costly cabling. |
@jumia, Reading your comments it difficult to ascertain how interested you are in exploring your inquiry. As several posters have wisely suggested, you can essentially "rent" /audition cables of interest via the cable company. They are very good at accommodating this type of scenario. Select several cables that interest you and patiently listen to them intently in your own system. Trust your ears and just listen and compare in a very familiar home audio system. How do they compared with your current speaker cables. Buy some zip cord wire and judge how it matches up with the more expensive audition cables. I believe that you will find some cables are clearly better than others (Like any category of audio products). Most expensive is not necessarily always the best but ’generally’ speaking you’ll get what you pay for. I believe that the higher quality the audio system (Resolution and transparency) the easier it will be to hear differences amongst the various cables. This method is the most direct and effective way to satisfy genuine curiosity. Charles |
For high-end interconnects. I always go into a set of interconnects with great skepticism. Normally I will have just upgraded one or more components, so I am calibrated as to what it cost me for the component (cost per sound improvement) I just bought. So, the sound of the interconnects need to make me feel like it is worth the money... like I have no alternative.. because of the improved sound. It is always a question of bang for the buck... get the most out of an existing component, or save it for a component upgrade. . This is why it is best to try interconnects either from a dealer or rent. Or just buy some fairly inexpensive ones that are well reviewed. Just yesterday my dealer brought by a $2,500 digital interconnect for fun for me to try (my current interconnect was $2,000 Transparent). It made my system sound bad... brittle, glasslike, not better. Did not need to do any thinking about it... it sounded terrible. This is not common, but sometimes high quality interconnects do not sound better in your system. It should not be a hard choice... it should be easy, or it is a waste of money. |
@jumia To me its all sooo convuludedYes, it is, but it can be figured out with a bit of research. If you post your cable budget and/or your audio components, you’ll receive many suggestions that will help narrow your search. A good place to start understanding the science of audio cables, Google “iconoclast cables white paper” then click on a white paper link. Although no direct experience with “Silversmith Fidelium” speaker cables, from what I read it appears to be a rare audio bargain. Even though I already have $6k speaker cables, I might try a pair of the Fidelium. |
edgewound $2,500 cables are a scam. Period.Such silly nonsense. Were your claim true, you’d beat a path to a lawyer and a class action lawsuit and get rich beyond your wildest dreams. But, oddly, those who claim fraud, scam, and snakeoil here never pursue their claims, except here. Which prompts the question: Who’s promoting a scam? |
Hello, I have quite a bit of hifi components, amps, preamps, turntables, and many hi-end cables. I usually keep the cables I’ve purchased throughout the years in the event I need them in the future. Usually, the difference between a $200 cable and a $2,500 cable from the same manufacturer is that more attention is given to making the more expensive cable sounding better. Better usually means, more open, transparent but yet smooth, better bass and smoother highs, and usually more refined. But with some products, this is not always the case. I’ve found that my more expensive cables do sound better than my lower end cables. But the most important point, is not $$$ spent on a cable, its synergy regardless of price. |
Of course cables make a difference the signal or power passes through them. Whether your system can reveal the difference and you can hear it is what matters. The best ones, like the best components should be neutral and let the music come through, not emphasizing certain frequencies. One caution - they are the biggest markup of any product (not including hocus focus tweaks) possible as the cost to manufacture is much lower than any other product. The law of diminishing returns is quicker IMHO with cables than anything else. |
As one who can hear differences in interconnects, speaker cables and digital connections, let alone tube rolling...... OK, power cords not so much anymore after the Niagara install, ..... I probably don't have any links other than power cords that have not been shot out 8 to 10 times... tubes more than that. It is what it is.............. I hear differences in everything including taking a picture on or off the wall. |
Anyone wants to hear what cables can do, come on over. In speaker cables I have a nice selection of 2 levels of Synergistic and a Townshend F1. Interconnects I have Jungson, Synergistic and Townshend F1 at price levels from a couple hundred to several thousand. In power cords you can hear Shunyata, Synergistic, and M101 Nova and Supernova. Anyone who thinks a power cord is not that big a deal the Supernova will rock your world. Anyone who does not think these things are equally as essential as any other component, if I remove all the Townshend F1, Nova and Supernova and replace them with lesser wire, you will be shocked how comparatively awful it sounds. Even though truth be told if all you heard was my system with those cheaper wires you would be impressed. But with the better wires you are stupefied. Spellbound. Freaking amazed. This stuff is for real. For anyone not to have got the message by now I really do have to wonder how serious you are. It is so unbelievably obvious. I mean even if your listening skills are near non-existent you would have to be way more oblivious than my wife, who is not all that interested in anything but Tchaikovsky, nevertheless she hears the difference without even going in the room. So frankly either you are an audiophile and get it, or you are a troll and never will. Either way, all the same, you are all welcome to come and listen. You will see. |
They sound like $500 speaker cables. And they sound like $15,000 speaker cables, and sometimes they sound like $20 worth of zip cord from Home Depot. Above a few hundred dollars for say a 3 meter pair (longer runs are going to cost more) and it's just whatever differences you hear. Either way, no way to know without living with them for a good long while in your system. |
Well one specific thing I’ve read hear is 100 percent wrong,you don’t need to “live with them for a good long while” to hear a difference in speaker wire. After switching them out,you will hear a difference in 30 seconds of listening,period. After 5 minutes you will know if you like the difference! All the time spent after that will just confirm what you heard initially in the first few seconds. Sure,spending some time with the new cables is advisable,but you’ll know quite fast if it’ll work for you in your system. If you can’t hear a difference,or the difference isn’t to your liking,move on,hopefully you were able to borrow or rent or beg off a set from a friend. Don’t buy a set because they look good or your buddy has them,or they sounded wonderful in the store on their gear. And don’t expect to hear big improvements from cheap cables,it just doesn’t happen,or atleast very rarely. So if your poor or cheap,be happy with what you have, and go buy your kids dinner or diapers or whatever. Good luck,John |
@cleeds , Edgewood $2,500 cables are a scam. Period.Such silly nonsense. Were your claim true, you’d beat a path to a lawyer and a class action lawsuit and get rich beyond your wildest dreams. But, oddly, those who claim fraud, scam, and snakeoil here never pursue their claims, except here. Which prompts the question: Who’s promoting a scam? If only. Let’s not forget that no manufacturer, dealer, seller etc EVER promises ANY sonic improvement. THEY NEVER EVER DO. As @faintandfuzzy has already pointed out, "In double blind testing, it’s amazing to watch all of these supposed differences vanish." The key word being ’supposed’, or hinted/ implied/ inferred/ suggested if you prefer - but never actually stated. If any of them actually believed their cables were sonically superior do you think they would hesitate to shout it from the rooftops? Heck they would, they’d make Noel Lee look like a shy and retiring vicar! |
In double blind testing that is poorly done, the small differences, the nuance found is harmed. harmed via the physical set up and the overall execution of the test. Of course, when I say that, the person reading it has to know how important all that is. To set up a test correctly it must contain the intelligence and the nuance that is required for the audio capable mind and intellect involved, to be able to perceive the nuance being tested for. That nuance must be able to emerge from the test unharmed and be capable of being heard. In other words -- Don’t attempt to count intact chicken eggs with a 10 pound sledgehammer. This also involves psychological bullying or disturbances of mental state via the test set up and coming from the direction of the people handling the test, creating the test, setting up the test, and so on. This is important as the mind is a self malleable shifting senses/concentration/scope/direction/range type device that has to center itself to the task at hand. One can’t do basic arithmetic while one’s arm is being sawn off with a blunt spoon while it’s being held over a raging fire. The mind, overall, prevents the capacity for nuance being discerned, as it takes over and tries to move the arm out of harm. On the more subtle level, we find that to train our children or anyone else for that matter, it is required to have the correct environment and to also fit the situation of learning into the type of scenario that works not for just all but to help the individual to understand, as their capacity to realize nuance, in learning, is key. We end up having to design learning systems for individuals. Environments and envelops, moods, shapes, spaces etc...this is why we hire tutors for our children or people so the individual tutor can work with how the individual learns and retains. to help them excel, when they may have failed, as the generalization at hand in the training/teaching norms, is not working for them. We don’t ask diamond cutters to do fine cuts in diamonds while being a passenger in the Baja 1000 Rally (or the Dakar Rally). This is going to be difficult for the person who is involved and is a ’detractor’ of such audio directions as ’cables make a difference’. This, as they are like a mental and physical blunt instrument, regarding understand the nuance tha this required in this entire situation.... We have to go back to the start and try and help them ’get it’. To back to long before or deeper into orignal extant nuance and help them understand..that they got stuck running down the road into this gauntlet that is narrowing in their own ignorance... to a fine over-extended point..that is attacking the audio world. The kind that rolls into your driveway crushing newborn kittens... when the task at hand ..is to come over... and be involved in accurately counting living newborn kittens. What’s wrong? they ask.... They kill and harm and can’t plan a simple test as they have no idea of the data or the tests meaning. they misconstrue even where to begin, in order to claw their own ignorance back... as they have no grip on the subject matter at hand. in the case of James Randi vs Micheal Fremer, Fremer went after all those small aspects that had to be correctly done, so that the test could go forward in a correct functional way. so the Randi foundation and whatnot kept allowing things to proceed in the right direction and then it was found that under such a correctly designed test, that Fremer could actually seriously discern to a pretty well 100% level, of the differences in cables, reliably, every damned time. Fremer was going to dunk the Randi foundation in its own projected effluent, and he was going to be collecting that million dollars. To add, the test was invalid statistically, as noted by more than one professional and accredited statistician and test regimen designer. you know.. the kind of people who design drug tests and whatnot for the tune of millions of dollars in medical studies, FDA approval, etc- what becomes drug approvals and so on. actual science. Those people noted that the Randi test was utterly ridiculous in it’s statistical reliability and correctness demands. They noted that the criteria needed to be beat, to collect the million dollars was out of line with reality. Way out of line. Where that... if anyone had used the Randi test criteria to prove the efficacy of a drug or compound, or any other scientific testing and validation scenario, nothing in this world would have ever been approved. Ever. Far too stringent for any form of reality in this world. So the entire thing appeared on paper, in execution and then, of course, in reality...that it was designed to make sure anything involved was a failure and that no one could ever get to the insane 100% correctness level in testing across enforced repetition. To force testing until failure. and then calling the intermittent failure from over stressing, the accumulation to eventual failure ...as THE outcome. Like testing a bridge or the like with more and more mass and stressing until it fails, and then calling the expected failure as the outcome of the test. Or using the bridge for 50 years and then when it fails calling it a failed bridge, an invalid bridge. That was part of the testing regimen as well. Over-testing to force outcome to failure and call it different than it actually was or is. The challenge and the debunking from the Randi foundation was going to remain intact forever, as the testing regimen was scientifically invalid and essentially rigged. This, as coming from world class statisticians who analyzed the ’million dollar challenge’ regimen presented. That the Randi foundation was akin to a debunking system or ’front’ ---and nothing more. Which makes it far far worse than neutral. Fremer was going to beat that system and beat the impossible 100% perfection mark...and walk away with the million dollars. The Randi faction backed down and contrived an excuse to walk away. When someone brings up Randi and the challenge, or anything haveing to do with double blind testing in this area of proofing....ie, high end audio.... as tied to the ’prove you hear a difference’ ignorance that is always presented...well... I realize I’m talking to someone with an agenda ...or they are severely misinformed about reality and the bits within it. |
Saying proper cable management is crucial is making it sound complicated @jasonbourne52 it’s really not. Keep cables off the floor. Avoid having them touch each other, but if they must, make sure they intersect perpendicularly. Don’t let them loop around. Pretty simple. Violating any of these rules impacts the SQ from a purely physics standpoint by creating interference because of the magnetic fields created by any flowing current (or wire for that matter). You may or may not be able to hear it, and as you know, some people hear better than others (or listen better). |
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Agree with raising the cables off the floor. I started out with short tea candle holders from Ikea. Real cheap and easy to lay cables on their scalloped edges. Next I tried some 6" 4x4s and was impressed with the improvement. I remember Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade saying to get them at least 8" off the floor so I went and got some of those 3M stick on hooks for one wall behind the speakers and strung up the extra length on them, about 30" off the floor. Not all of the cable is that high (one section is as close as 8" as it droops-the cables are about 2’ longer than I need). For the other side, I had to go with a short wire TP holder (25") with an extended handle (for that roll) to use to lay the cable on due to its proximity to the wall heater. As funny as it sounds, it’s not in the least funny in how it sounds. The clarity is so pronounced that solo voices with acoustic accompaniment sounds so eerily real as to beg disbelief. That goes for all around clarity as well on any recording. The only trade off is getting used to a somewhat lessened lower mid and bass performance. It seems that the smearing introduced by my synthetic carpet added some heft to the sound in the lower parts. To think that I’ve read of this many years ago (closer to decades) and didn’t take it all that seriously gives me pause. I always thought that my Marantz had that relaxed house sound but with everything I do to clean things up (power conditioning, footers, fuses, and now cable management) the more the sound is not relaxed at all, but just ever so slightly warm off center, but capable of lots of detail and depth. All the best, Nonoise |
Cable management is not a hoax and cable risers are not cosmetic, even though they could look strange or impressive to someone who is less involved with these things. Both could cost nothing to do but your spare time. Rising speaker cables off the floor had a positive effect on stereo imaging in my case. Three more power cables to go. |
Hey @nonoise Any idea what the reason is for needing to have cables 8" off the floor? The need to have them off the floor is due to vibration from the floor from the speakers, which need to be touching to affect the cables. Unless maybe with static electricity from carpets? I just have mine off the floor with little wood trim pieces attached to the back of my credenza or held up by shoeboxes behind it. Why 30" off the floor? |
@sokogear, Not all of the cable is 30" off the floor. I tried to depict the image of longer than needed cable drooping as I hung it, with sections of it at the 8" height off the floor. Not all of it is 30" off the floor. As the crow flies, one speaker is about 4' from my integrated and the other is about 2 1/2', while my SCs are about 8' in length. The thought of static electricity ran through my mind as well. It's only on the synthetic carpet in my apartment that I can build it up to the point where I'll shock myself, so it stands to reason it may have been interfering with the sound of the cable all this time, acting as an additional layer of unwanted dielectric. Who knows? All I care is that it sounds much more convincing. All the best, Nonoise |
I would think that real wood with have no impact worth noting, except for the vibrations that some say can have an effect. I've seen lots of photos of reviewers set ups where it's about 50/50 as to whether they're off a wooden floor or just lying on it. The reviewers who have them off their wooden floors claim to hear the difference. The others don't even mention it, kind of like here. This is going out on a limb but the thought of a layer of non organic clear coat on a wood floor (for that long lasting sheen and protection) could be a factor but you won't know until you try something. Like having a thin wire in a big tube, only a small part of the cable will be making contact with the floor so it probably doesn't matter. If I had wood floors, I'd still try it too see for myself, starting with something cheap and temporary. All the best, Nonoise |
