Throwing 2 High End brands together will not automatically equal success. Thoughts?

I will be doing a listening session soon if any of you guys are in Dallas. Hit me up. 

I’m an audiophile first.  Got my infigo stuff based on the first demo I heard. Became a dealer after it blew me away. I disclose that to everyone besides there are plenty of guys that have known me through the years. Way before now. 

And you are a dealer.

@audiotroy great post. I went #1 all Infigo Electronics. I like the send it was meant to work together.  Great point 

Of course not.  The best solutions are carefully designed not haphazardly thrown together based mainly on price. 

It requires a lot of knowledge and experience to know how to compare two products much less two brands.  The only people who have this opportunity are studio techs who hook up gear and take it down for a living (for the visiting engineers in a commercial studio) or sales people in a busy hi fi store who hooks up gear all the time.   Trying to do this at home is very very difficult as it’s the comparison back and forth that gets you this information- not just swapping once.  It’s impossible to remember sound qualities.  ’ve been around this for 40+ years and I’ve never seen anyone be able to do this once and remember (in hi fi or pro)2.  Thats the advantage of a double blind when you are unfamiliar with the system.

There are so many conditions that affect an opinion, you must do this over different days and using the same exact system except for the item you want to compare.  And here’s the kicker, the first sound you hear is always the reference you compare everything to.  So you have to swap which one is “first” multiple times.  
 

Brad

@jayctoy @ronboco our goal is for it to sound like it’s playing live. We try to get to as close to real as possible. 

Ronboco to achieve matching it takes luck if you are new in this hobby. If you are new even if the system is synergizing , you might not even know. It happen to me.So it take trial and error to familiarize components, cables , speakers, how they synergize with each other. Calvinj all about matching more highend stuff not always equal success? Agree.

When I listen to the Infigo room this 2025 Axpona, the system sounds live and musical, Calvinj also know how to choose music for the system. He is good at showcasing a very good system as well.I could sense Calvinj has a very good ear and listening skill is superb.Very Knowledgeable.

Not untrue. 

@ronboco I think in my case.  They design by placing priority on low noise floors and limiting distortion but remaining musical. Typically companies will use their own products when testing their products and equipment.  You make sure the handoff of all the information running throughout the system is seamless.  You just make sure that what you are building works together well and you are prioritizing certain things.  My system sounds like live music in my environment and thats what the company was shooting for. 

Surely it is unrealistic to think that any one manufacturer can be good at everything?

One that did come close is Quad, who started making valve and solid state amplifiers after WW2, then added world-class electrostatic loudspeakers (still heavily based on electronics).  When they moved towards the source components, the best they could do was modify a Philips CD transport.  Never touched turntables.

Under their new owners, they have gone very down-market in my opinion with dynamic speakers and some very 'ordinary' amplifiers in the range.

Staying British, KEF makes class-leading speakers in several categories, but has never made separate amplifiers or source components.  Their active speakers do have internal amplification but that's where it stops, at least for now.

Then I thought of Linn, who kicked off with a turntable, added speakers and who used to be frequently partnered with Naim amplification.  After years of decrying digital, they include CD players and streamers.  I have just discovered they now also make power amplifiers and sell cables so they could be a one-stop shop after all.

One thing I am sure of - no one dealer has ever stocked all the components I use!

What exactly does a company do to the components to make them “work together “ 

In my experience of constant dissatisfaction for my system, when i decided to tackle the system/room problem instead of buying a new upgrade, i experimented with acoustics with more fun, no money invested (homemade) and after 2 years i was in ectasy...

I did not need to upgrade since save to replace deficient parts or create better synergy(low cost upgrade)...

The race for upgrade is mostly created by acoustics basics knowledge ignorance entertained by marketing strategy about gear piece...

Guess why many dont like to hear that ?

The most important part of audio is not buying a piece of gear, never mind his price, but knowing or learning how to make it work at his best  possible peak acoustics working level ...

My best to you ...

@mahgister I have just moved and my new listening area is much better theoretically than the previous space and out of the gate the system sounds better, but the new room has its own / new problems acoustically.

I know it is not the gear. And I have you to thank to some extent for constantly driving this point home.

I will not spent a penny on new gear - I’ve got to get the room right to get to next level.

@calvinj the answer is of course not. Unfortunately learning this by trial and error is quite expensive.

@mahgister I have just moved and my new listening area is much better theoretically than the previous space and out of the gate the system sounds better, but the new room has its own / new problems acoustically.

I know it is not the gear. And I have you to thank to some extent for constantly driving this point home.

I will not spent a penny on new gear - I’ve got to get the room right to get to next level.

I try to have the same amp and per amp at least.  In my case my amp, pre amp, Dac, streamer and cables are all Infigo.  They have the same design elements and they are made to work together.  It’s the best sound I’ve ever had and amongst the best I’ve heard period.  The synergy I have is natural because everything was meant to work together and the gear has a sound signature I seek. 

Synergy has a technical electrical specs compatibility objective meanings... It can be answer by same brand for the gear or other brand name...

Electrical specs dont bother with branded name of gear...

Also synergy has a subjective meaning whence all  specs matching is well done...

But pay whatever you want, the best of any system at any price is rooted in acoustics..but this is so bad news for many , most people dont  think about it and never really experiment...Upgrading road is easier but  often deceptive...

In all honesty the mix and match strategy was the only way fifty years ago. As true high end equipment was being developed for the very first time. For instant, Pass developed the Threshold line of amplifiers and other garage entrepreneurs created true assaults on the best possible components. But typically they only did not thing exceptionally well. Threshold known for amps, Audio Research preamps, Nakamichi (yes, I know, not American) tape decks. You simply had to mix and match.  So that was what everyone did. 

It has only been more recently, with larger companies and larger research and development teams could a company present multiple cutting edge components with the same house sound. 

So, the strategy remains. Sometimes it is probably the best way, sometimes not. 

"throw 2 High End brands together thinking it will give you the best sound"

No, but the results will be consistently better than throwning crappy brands together.

But, seriously, I agree with others on the importance of power delivery.  In my few, it's the most underappreciated aspect of system building. 

The higher performing components usually have the best synergy with a matching brand. IMO the mix 'n' match component theory was dealer created for diversifying sales of multiple brands.

@audiotroy 

Thanks for your comment. Great perspective. 

hi here in my 4o years of experience gleaned at working for two of the largest high

end audio  stores in New York City Sound by Singer and innovative audio it was 

always best matching components from different companies together as some companies made amazing amplifiers or preamplifiers while their matching amplifier or preamplifier was not as good as their competition.

this lead to combinations such as Convergent Audio preamplifiers with Vac or Vtl  amplifiers or even Krell power amplifier with a tube preamplifier.

in 40 years of doing this professionally and seling thousands of systems I came up with the foundational approach to system building:

1: start with loudspeakers first as the choice of loudspeaker is determined by room size and desired bass output, and budget.

2:choose amplifier or integrated that brings out the best from the loudspeakers

some loudspeakers sound their best on a tube amplifier or solid state amplifier

some loudspeakers are very efficient so you don't need a lot of power 

so you match the electronics to the loudspeakers

3; match the sound of the source to now flavor the system to your preferences

there are warmer dacs and cartridges and more detailed and analytical ones

fine tune with cables power conditioners and accessories room tuning loudspeaker positioning

Dave and troy

audio intellect NJ

@audiotroy  Well stated.  
Finding synergy requires homework.  Synergy is subjective based on user preference.  The homework required involves establishing your perception on how recorded/reproduced music should sound.  Perception can be established by listening to acoustic and amplified live music and other systems to establish preferences such as timbre, clarity, dynamics, imaging, staging, etc.  Once you establish your preferences, establish good listen techniques to vet the SQ if different brands or models.  At that point you will be equipped to use the generalizations from audiotroy to find synergy.  Finding synergy in your system will produce balance in your ability to enjoy music.  

A dealer is only going to put together what he sells, and what has good profit margin, also what is in stock. 

Most of the time dealers do not really listen to your needs, they try to feed you what they want to sell. I've had dealers tell me my setup is crap, and not worth investing any time or money into. While trying to sell me a $10k amp, and a $6k subwoofer.

There are times, when someone will work with you, move products around, even let you bring in one of your component to see how it sounds with the other stuff.

Also found that synergy at the dealer might not be synergy at home. Took me a while to figure out that the room is one of the most important parts. 

Sonus Faber + Mac:  The brands use the same distribution company so that is a reason that you see them paired up so often.  Same for Naim + Focal.  System matching is almost an art.  Listen to everything you can, understand what each sound signature is, and then go from there.  

The best advice I received from a sales person representing many brands both new and used was to decide what component was I going to build my system around. I was putting together a system for vinyl. His question was do you want to build it around the source, the amplifier, or speakers. What ever I decided he suggested putting 40+% of the budget into that component then build around that. 
since I was after vinyl I built around the turntable/cartridge. My thoughts were if I can’t extract the information nothing down stream will fix that. 
Just what I did, but I don’t know shxx.

Agree that the system should be matched to the buyers/listeners preferences including appearance.  I like matched components for the comparability in setup and in both sound and appearance.  It has to sound good and look good for me to be happy with equipment.  I have several components from the same manufacturer and I have also mixed and matched equipment.  So I guess I’m a little from #1 and a little from #2.  Another fun part of this hobby.  

I wouldn’t say that I ’threw’ different brands together.  Since my budget is limited, I did a lot of homework before purchasing.  The components are made by various manufacturers - some mainstream, some boutique.  Each component is quite capable of contributing highly resolving SQ.   

I attend T.H.E. Show every year.   In comparison to some of the higher-end systems, my modest rig has nothing to be embarrassed about.   It punches far above its weight.   There’s a reason.

It is the cabling that brought everything together in a very organic way.  Synergistic Research - Atmosphere series - upper tiers.  The tuning modules and ground leads offer the capability to tweak the SQ.   It’s fascinating how these modules work - for analog & digital.   Tuning is exactly what they do.    After 20+ years of cable-swapping, these finally allowed my system to reproduce a piano as it should sound.  Well, pretty close to it.*

- - - 

* This is in conjunction with much attention to clean AC power.   

I live nearby Steinway and Yamaha piano stores that I visit often.

My thought is:

"Most of the time, Hi-end audio is not so hi-end after all."

And that is sad for everyone. For example give Quad ESL63 to an ATC guy and see who is happy, In hi-end audio, preferences are more important than SQ?

Putting components together randomly, whether high end or not, is certainly not calculated to get the best results. Beyond that, hearing is so subjective it’s hard to say more. As you said, you don’t like the Sonos Macintosh match but obviously a lot of people think they are perfect together.

likewise, I’ve been advised that Boulder amps don’t match well with Sonus. On the other hand, I’ve heard from people who have that very set up and claim its the best. I think you can only know what works for you, it’s a mistake to assume it will sound best to someone else. Good advice can help steer people to try certain combinations, but beyond that it gets to be very personal.

@ghdprentice I have all Infigo Components and cabling.  It made things way easier for me. I have a system that was made to work with each other.  

@audiotroy 

Good comment.

Now I can’t prove this. But I have a theory about 2).... offsetting components is not quite as effective as 1). 

First, I completely agree that 2) can be done, and should be. I have heard it... you know Benchmark DAC with PS Audio preamp ... cold detailed / warmer and more forgiving. Like that. However my feeling is this can be a sub-optimal solution compared to 1).

So, let’s just consider a trebly detailed front end and a warm next component and a trebly next component... etc. It seems each is subtractive and at the end you have a well balanced less.

So, finding the perfect house sound to your liking is best and using all the same components. I found as I slowly assembled my system, which is now all ARC that each piece seemed to be more synergistic. I think because they were all reinforcive. The same sound qualities from one to the next. Of course all companies do not have exactly the same sound across all components. But many good ones do. 

As I say, I can’t prove it. I’m really not sure how you could... but working in high end audio sales you might be exposed to evidence. 

@audiotroy great post. I went #1 all Infigo Electronics. I like the send it was meant to work together.  Great point 

@onhwy61 you are right. Maybe it’s a preference thing. I understand 

@calvinj , we all have our preferences, but if you browse the systems section you'll see that McIntosh and Sonus Faber are a very popular combination.  Some very serious looking setups.

 there are really two schools of thought:

ONE  use the same components from one manufacturer 

TWO offset each components weakness with another’s components  strength

So for example you have a very dynamic punchy solid state amplifier but it sounds a bit too cold and analytical, so them a warmer tube preamplifier might be the perfect solution. 

Dave and troy

Audio Intellect NJ

@sns 

Over time, as I came to understand my preferences and/or my unique needs for my system I made my own choices.

+1

Agree. It doesn't.

I don't get a dealer doing this unless they are poor listeners. In early days  relied on dealers and shows to gain an understanding of synergy between components. Over time, as I came to understand my preferences and/or my unique needs for my system I made my own choices.

I suppose it all depends upon a dealer’s customer base. I once ran into a high-end home theater installer in the Sacramento area who characterized his customers as simultaneously having the money for very expansive gear but poor listening skills/aural awareness. He apparently did quite well, financially, but expressed frustration that the gear was not really appreciated. It served mostly as "bling" to show off. I don’t recall which lines he carried. 

Why a dealer would make a habit of poor synergy if attempting to sell to experienced audiophiles doesn’t make any sense to me. It seems self-defeating in the long run. But then, I’m neither a businessman nor someone who buys gear in dealer showrooms.  As far as I’m concerned the only sensible pace to demo gear is in one’s own listening space. 

Randomly throwing two high end brands together is irresponsible and very unlikely to be cost effective. Different house sounds are very different, and often not complimentary. The only point to going to a dealer is to gain knowledge and guidance in your choice of components. Not helping you make a synergistic choice is unconscionable. 

Without a doubt one can build a system of highly respected components end to end, that results in poor sound. Imagine the brightest, most detailed speakers you can think of, and add an amp, preamp, DAC and cables that have similar characteristics. There might be a few people that would think this is great, but most would find it unlistenable. But the same components, sprinkled into a different system might find synergy. 

I think this really gets to the heart of what makes this a hobby, or pursuit, and why it can take years to build a system. As knowledge grows and tastes changes, these systems are also replaced as we go up the chain.

@onhwy61 for example I see the McIntosh Sonus Faber combination a lot.  I don’t think it matches well.  I think that it’s a sound that is too warm.I see dealers do this a lot. Not a match for my liking.  @deep_333 i agree. A good dealer listens to the customer and finds out the sound he is seeking. He should select components to help,the customer get there. @cleeds having a good dealer that knows what he is doing and knows what you are seeking is important in this hobby. 

Frankly, no. The dealers I've known actually take care in helping to match components. I think that's one of their most useful functions.

@calvinj since you see this a lot, please give a few examples of thrown together systems.

Synergy is different for every listener, dependent on his ears/tastes....

When a guy says "My dealer did all the synergy for me", he failed to understand that the dealer’s synergy picks would not be the ideal synergy items for his ears/tastes.

A ’good’ dealer would just let the customer pair different things he carries, let the customer listen to such pairings and have him decide what appears to be synergistic or not. 

A ’not so good’ dealer’s usually trying to move stuff that never sells or trying to sell stuff that gets him the big margins... when he claims to do "synergy picks" for the unsuspecting customer.

I think it takes a special person with a EAR for what sounds good and what dosent. A fine truly dialed in system can take a long time to put together through trial and error. Years ago it was more about what store you walked into might have the biggest effect on what sounds you heard, now not so much. Its up to YOU as a dedicated HI-Fi individual to seek out the components that synergize the best. Its not an easy road, if done correctly. IMHO.

Matt M

Well if said "high end" brand isn't actually as high end as they claim then yes you'd have a terrible time.

But anyway this is the hierarchy of what is important imo and with workable experience and evidence to back it:

Room/Speaker placement dialed in as best as possible=>Quality/If you like your audio files=>Amp stability=>Inherent balance of speaker with directivity being a big strength coupled with actual full 20 to 20kHz reproduction. The rest are just near unimportant to the sound in any truly audible way.

Oh also there's no such thing as sounding like a live performance (that's an oxymoron)