...mmm... I think we could ask this question about any consumer good... car, house, watches,... if some of us have the means to pay for these dream toys, why not? I have no moral issue on this question... if people want to spend 100k or more, it’s their choice...
when I was young, in the 1970s, a good system cost about 2k. In the 1980s it was 10k... and now there seems to be no limit... which is quite incredible when you think of it... the most expensive turntable was the Goldmund at 10k and the ARC SP-10 preamp cost the astronomical sum of 10k... peanuts compared to the price of certain components today...
I’ll never be able to afford these expensive amps, preamps, DACs, speakers... like many of us, I read and dream... although I’m quite happy with my system which cost me less than 4K... as I say sometimes, I was never as thrilled by music as when I was playing those noisy 45s on my little pickup... what matters most — for me at least — is the music... 😎
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“it definitely wasn't worth the price”
again, feel free to review “Laissez-faire” economics from the Austrian school, not the (Marxist) London school.
a thing is “worth” what someone is willing to pay for it. “Value” is in the mind of the buyer.
TANSTAAFL
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Only the less fortunate worry about price and I don't mean this in a snobby way. But there are exceptions as some rich audiophiles are not going to allocate that much money to assemble a ridiculously expensive rig knowing it's a poor investment as far as diminishing returns go.
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@frankmc195
Anyone have any idea how long ago Hifi manufacturers discovered we (audiophiles) will pay almost anything chasing our perfect sound?
Yes, I do.
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@mirolab Actually it wasn't me who asked... I was sitting in a chair in the front row when another audiophile walked over and asked the price. I happened to overhear the conversation. As the price being on the brochure, whether it was or not.... it definitely wasn't worth the price. Does your company by any chance have a preamp priced at $22,000? I could be completely off but I have you sized up as a rep for an audio manufacturer which is a good thing.... Hearing all sides keeps us informed.
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Unfortunately its no different then whats happened in the used high end watch markets or on Bringatrailer.com where people continue to purchase at shockingly high prices, driving prices up. As the economy cools prices should - I hope- soften. I've noticed that the more expensive used gear here on Agon is now often seeing price cuts and or very long "for sale' periods, indicating reduced interest...
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I really don’t get the premise of the OP’s scenario. Do you mean to suggest that you went to an audio show, and the Rep sized you up, and made up a price on the spot?? Well aren’t YOU special! What about their website and printed brochures that most likely already had the price settled before you arrived?
As for complaining about prices.... it’s a free market... and the last time I checked I can buy an amp for $100, $500, $1200, $4000, $12,000.... should I keep going? Are they all worth the asking price? Some are, some aren’t. For some you are paying a premium just for good looks and build quality. Others are more basic bang-for-your-buck. It’s the same for any other component. I really don’t see the problem. If you normalize the cost of a Pioneer receiver from the ’70’s into today’s dollars, you’ll see that mid-fi audio is about the same price it’s always been. It’s just that the extreme high end has gotten a lot higher.
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I meet people who have smoked cigarettes, cigars and used tobacco all their lives. Peer pressure and advertising got them hooked long ago. Now they have advanced cancer and lung disease. Some have tomatoe sized green tumors on their mouth. Was it worth it spending thousands of dollars on these enjoyable habits. I don’t think so. Were they tricked, duped and misled. Yep and someone got rich off of their decisions. Yes but it was their choice. In my opinion, a poor choice. BTW at this stage of their life someone has to take care of them. Just like a quadriplegic who rides a motorcycle everyday and has had an accident. Someone feeds them and wipes their butt everday.
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Some of these companies do not sell a lot of units so they make a huge profit on each one.. it's like funeral homes you are paying for the days that they are closed
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We will pay anything? No I am not in that group. I am not that financially blessed nor am I that ignorant and stupid.
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I remember the first time I realized it was possible to spend a million bucks on a two channel music system... Have you ever mentioned that to your non-audiophile friends and been met with disbelief?
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I think since you can't be taller or have better hair or be better looking, it's important to buy very expensive things and tell people about them as much as possible. Or, just go online and claim you have high end stuff so strangers will think you're smart and wonderful. Win win.
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by all means allow me to recommend a preamp and speaker to you so you can go out and buy them
Uh, not on your life dude.
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I remember listening to Peter Qvortrup who runs Audio Note say that nobody in high end was making money these days.
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@soix by all means allow me to recommend a preamp and speaker to you so you can go out and buy them (Stop by your bank first).... however if they were on sale for $100 I still wouldn't have bought them... don't need paper weights.
Update on user end agreement
1. you understand these are my opinions only and you understand I've been wrong before.
2. You understand that your opinions are yours and not necessarily others.
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@mike_in_nc
I wasn’t aware John Maynard Keynes (or Karl Marx) was an audiophile.
tax cuts should by rights go to those who pay taxes and make payrolls.
things of quality seem to cost what a free market will bear or they don’t get made.
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Once again all these are my opinions only and may not conform to yours.
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@frankmc195
Good morning/afternoon.
I think we often overlook an element that is a critical element of the true "cost" of an item. The intellectual component. It seems we agonize over the price of "raw components" as the true "cost" of an item and dismiss the engineering, design and talent required to bring something from a sketch on a napkin to finished form -- ready for public consumption. This is flawed logic in my opinion. We are quite used to paying for "opinions" and "expertise" in purely intellectual fields such as medicine, financial planning, law, and others. There are zero material costs attached to the total price of those services in many cases. Yet, we expect similar (and, perhaps even rarer talent) in the field of high performance audio to be served to us at no (or, little) cost.
To be reasonable and pragmatic about this, let’s just set a number for the "financial burden" of a top audio engineer at $200k as a cost basis. (May be low, may be high?). If a manufacturer builds 1M of an item, that’s 20 cents per item for engineering. If they build 10, that’s $20k per unit for engineering. This is a REAL cost of production, not a massive eqo attached to the piece. IF we want to drill down a little deeper, this represents the COST to the manufacturer with no consideration for profit for the manfacturer OR the dealer. Doing the math and factoring in manufacturer wholesale "mark up" to dealer, and "standard" dealer gross profit, this may represent something closer to $38k addtitional price of the item at "retail" for engineering.
Successful manufacturers look at the market BEFORE they throw considerable resources (and money) at it to determine if there is a good chance of success before throwing a "dart" at the market to see if they get close to a bullseye. There is no "luck" attached here. Just smart business planning, with minimal risk. The point being, if we see "finished goods" out there at a price (even those well above our pay grades) it’s more likely than not that it represents "fair market value" and will appeal to the right (target) customer.. We may not agree with that value. But, it’s up to us to adopt or reject it.
To keep this specific to the 22k preamp that the OP brought up, I have a Luxman C900u (one can buy it new in the US for between 15 to 20k) and a Yamaha C5000 (10k new). I was able to get the Luxman for half the cost (couldn't pass that up) and was lucky enough to snag the Yamaha for less than msrp. I would put either one of them up against any SS preamp at any price.
You open either unit and it is a work of art, i.e. if a guy understands anything about analog circuit design. It is has always been its own type of black art, that a considerable number of electrical engineers should be able to tackle (no problem there). The catch is....the sonics of circuitry which no electrical engineering coursework would ever talk about. This is empirical information w.r.t iterative design acquired over decades of dedicated listening by engineers who are also "sound experts". Am i willing to pay that guy in Yamaha and Luxman that much, a guy who is willing to slash his wrists if he did a poor job at work? Sure...that level of competence and work ethic needs to be rewarded.
But, there are certain "elusive" brands in the "high end" who get it designed/fab'd completely in China. Am i willing to pay that poor Chinese engineer that much for his pain? Sure.....But, am i willing to pay the deadbeat dude who brought it over here for pennies on the dollar, put his brand name on it and suddenly managed to charge 50k? I sure as flip have no intention of paying that deadbeat anywhere close to that amount.
On a similar note, brands like Luxman, Accuphase, etc need to go manufacturer direct and cut the middleman unscrupulous dealer completely out. The product sold itself, sells itself and will continue to sell itself on its own!! I am willing to pay that class of manufacturer for his hard work and expertise. Am i willing to pay that dealer who sent an email, answered a phone call here in God's own land and claimed 50% of msrp (He sits there and sucks on that 50% like a leach while doing a whole lotta nothing)....lol, not only no, but, hell no!
Pay the guy who's worth your hard earned cash. Don't pay the scoundrels and deadbeats.
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I wonder what speakers the OP is referring to above? The ones that don't sound too good.
Also would be good to know where you heard them to form the conclusion. Why not warn us about them by giving some details? Thanks.
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@invalid I really didn't want to say this at all but what made me think of it was that the preamp didn't sound good and I was wondering if the rep thought he could get that kind of money for a preamp that wasn't very good. There is also a much advertised speaker that is along the same lines.... doesn't sound very good but asking price is nose bleed high. They have been in business for years so I guess that strategy may work. Again could be my opinion and also because someone is buying them I guess.
The other way to look at this is maybe the prices and performance are fine and your ears/taste are what’s off here. Just because you don’t think they sound good doesn’t make it so. The free market takes care of these things, not your individual ears and personal tastes. Frankly, your assertions come across as both ignorant and arrogant.
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@waytoomuchstuff
+1
Each component sale must pay for the below (just a quick list off the top of my head).
Cost of Research and development
Design (Includes hundreds of hours of listening and swapping out different parts and breaking them in). By very talented and expensive engineers.
Manufacturing set-up: Setting up a line, developing testing stations along the way.
Design packaging —- pay for set up
Cost of Manufacturing:
Cost of Materials
Cost of ordering dozens or hundreds of parts with different lead times (this takes time and if you are missing one piece… your dead in the water).
Cost of holding the inventoried parts and finished goods
Cost of holding large quantities of repair sub components for sometimes decades.
Cost of packaging
Manufacturing Costs
Labor (health insurance, time off, taxes)
Utilities: Rent, electricity, warehousing
Cost of IT. Computers, software to run the business, networking.
Returns / repair processing
Cost of selling:
Sales force… if even only one or two .
Advertising - pages in mags, Google searches… etc.
Coordinating add purchasing,
Developing and managing a global network of retailers.
Road trips to manage retailers / distributors. Pressesce at Audio Show all over the world.
Order entry, inventory management.
Customer support line / technical support.
Finance:
Accounts payable
Accounts receivable
Manage cash
manage accounts that do not pay, make sure accounts receivable do not grow faster than accounts payable or you go bankrupt.
Cost of Manage employees and operation
Periodic accounting cycles, annual tax returns… W2 for all employees
Employee relations
Taxes
The above must be paid for by the sale of each high end component. The higher the price, the lower the sales number… the more each unit must cover it’s development, manufacturing cost and the cost of ongoing operations.
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How in the world a flagship product from many decades ago could be categorized non audiophile product today ? as my amplifier for example or my headphone...😁
Price is almost IRRELEVANT in audio...I added the word "almost" because there is quality difference for sure in design and negating this would be stupid to begin with...
Acoustic and basic embeddings controls are way more relevant...
😊 This is so evident i dont see another reason to oppose that than bragging about new branded name products...
My active speakers cost is 200 Bucks... They sound better than almost all headphones WHEN rightfully acoustically embedded and modified ( 6 modifications)...
A speaker box with porthole is an Helmholtz resonator... Take a bundle of straws of THE RIGTH DIAMETER AND VOLUME and compute with your ears/brain in few experiments, put this on the rear porthole, and i go from 85 hertz measured specs to 50 hertz; the timbre is more natural now and the imaging and soundstage include my listening position in nearfield better than almost all headphones at any price ... I call this box speakers audiophile now, thanks to basic acoustic...
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@waytoomuchstuff makes sense and does give me a clearer picture of what all is involved. Clearer heads always prevail.
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@invalid I really didn't want to say this at all but what made me think of it was that the preamp didn't sound good and I was wondering if the rep thought he could get that kind of money for a preamp that wasn't very good. There is also a much advertised speaker that is along the same lines.... doesn't sound very good but asking price is nose bleed high. They have been in business for years so I guess that strategy may work. Again could be my opinion and also because someone is buying them I guess.
I think some reps and or manufacturers have slipped into the discussion but that is what it is far.... get both sides of the picture.
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@frankmc195 I have learned here that price is an almost irrelevant consideration for a true audiophile. Anytime anyone has questioned what they think is an absurdly high price for equipment, they typically get shouted down for daring to question how another person spends their money. There are people here that have $100,000 or more in their equipment and listening room — more than 10 times what I have in my system. Far be it from me to question how they spend their money — if ya got it, flaunt it. I’ve always been a “bang-for-buck” person with limited funds and a budget. I can’t spend 10 times what I do to listen to music, but bless those who can. I understand the premise of your question, as I often think the same, but I dare not question anyone here about their choices . . . even though some will question, even scoff, at a person whose budget is limited and their choices reflect that. I still glean some useful information here, though it is still a question of whose version of reality you prefer to believe. Take care.
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Sounds to me like the OP wants a $22,000 preamp for $1,200 . I would like a Bentley for the price of a Kia, but that's not how the world works.
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you can get a great system for $5,000. S. Stone reviews lots of low cost stuff...
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@frankmc195
Good morning/afternoon.
I think we often overlook an element that is a critical element of the true "cost" of an item. The intellectual component. It seems we agonize over the price of "raw components" as the true "cost" of an item and dismiss the engineering, design and talent required to bring something from a sketch on a napkin to finished form -- ready for public consumption. This is flawed logic in my opinion. We are quite used to paying for "opinions" and "expertise" in purely intellectual fields such as medicine, financial planning, law, and others. There are zero material costs attached to the total price of those services in many cases. Yet, we expect similar (and, perhaps even rarer talent) in the field of high performance audio to be served to us at no (or, little) cost.
To be reasonable and pragmatic about this, let’s just set a number for the "financial burden" of a top audio engineer at $200k as a cost basis. (May be low, may be high?). If a manufacturer builds 1M of an item, that’s 20 cents per item for engineering. If they build 10, that’s $20k per unit for engineering. This is a REAL cost of production, not a massive eqo attached to the piece. IF we want to drill down a little deeper, this represents the COST to the manufacturer with no consideration for profit for the manfacturer OR the dealer. Doing the math and factoring in manufacturer wholesale "mark up" to dealer, and "standard" dealer gross profit, this may represent something closer to $38k addtitional price of the item at "retail" for engineering.
Successful manufacturers look at the market BEFORE they throw considerable resources (and money) at it to determine if there is a good chance of success before throwing a "dart" at the market to see if they get close to a bullseye. There is no "luck" attached here. Just smart business planning, with minimal risk. The point being, if we see "finished goods" out there at a price (even those well above our pay grades) it’s more likely than not that it represents "fair market value" and will appeal to the right (target) customer.. We may not agree with that value. But, it’s up to us to adopt or reject it.
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@ghdprentice If I had been a man of the world, I wouldn't be as misinformed... however I do have someone like yourself to point me in the right direction. I should mention that I've lived in more countries than you can possibly imagine but I must have missed something when I was there. Thank you for your input.... you do understand that this is my opinion only and I understand that it is much different than yours.
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@czarivey ...can't say I've heard a cardboard bass, but a couple of cigar box basses, Yes. In the proper hands, one can appreciate what a lack of cash but time to spend can yield...esp. when the blues is rendered upon....
Nuthin' like a slide show on the neck....
Oh, and for you and @mahgister....y'all better git up early to beat me to that 88 yr. old after the 'kack'....who lives (for now) where exactly....? ;)
"....those mb'ell things? Ain't worth nil of late.....y'all let me take them off your hands, Hans....them and those big boxes hooked up to 'em. Where I'm from, they are cheaper than boat anchors...
Ya' gotta boat? Let's go dock racin'...." *engaging G*
...said the viper to the bunny.... ;)
@mike_in_nc ....Tax cuts for the rich, well....heels...? :(
'They' already have tax cuts that you, me, and all (...well, most...) can only dream and think 'that's it'....or is...
Since 'they/them/those' have all these well-suited charge accounted drones leaning upon and 'contributing to' the 'representatives' that 'clamor and claim' that they serve Us,,,,
,,,a certain NJ rep(rehesible) being an example....
Gold bars....wtf.....'for emergencies'.....Well, I guess this is a good time for one...*LOL*
I'm one of those nasty dem types....(oh, shut up....I've got an idea the NDC can run that'll scare the GOP into latte' froth....*evil snicker* ;)...)....
'Tax cuts'.....They could care less...
(OK....I'm ready for deletion....damage already rendered to the weak of mind....)
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@ghdprentice I’m stunned... you mean it really does cost $22,000 to make a preamp and market it?
@frankmc195 , lol, how about 22k for a cable, literally a piece of wire with a connector on each end? One can get a new car for 22k, y’know? Soon enough, some lousy dude... most probably a dealer lurking on these forums will try and equate everything that goes into making a car (a flippin car!!) to that 22k wire w/ 2 connectors somehow.
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I'm stunned... you mean it really does cost $22,000 to make a preamp and market it?
@ghdprentice This is the statement of someone who has no idea what he’s talking about or any faint clue of how business works. It’s just sad ignorance on full display. Maybe he’s kenjit’s dad. That’d explain a lot.
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OP,
I am really sorry that my comments come as a surprise to you. It saddens me that folks growing up and educated in a country with unhampered privilege, know so little about the world. I have taken advantage of opportunities and have worked for great high tech companies like Burr-Brown Corp, and Texas Instruments as an executive and a start up company. I have worked in the global manufacturing supply chain all over the world. Completely understand business, manufacturing. I have followed the high end audio industry for fifty years. Your perspective is so lacking in understanding it is embarrassing.
I can only suggest you learn more about the high end audio industry. You will find what I have said about of it is absolutely true.
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@mike_in_nc I felt you didn't get any of the tax cuts. Intuition. It's always easier to form a negative opinion of tax cuts your way.
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@ghdprentice I'm stunned... you mean it really does cost $22,000 to make a preamp and market it? I want to thank you for informing me. I will try to not be lazy next time and find the answers you have already found.
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…advertising, manufacturing, and overhead is relatively expensive
What about R&D costs? This is a major factor in driving up costs. I’ve been to the Magico manufacturing where they gave cutting edge equipment including computers, CNC aluminum cutting machines, etc. IIRC they recently build/upgraded a $250k sound room. These costs must be covered by sales income.
I have Vimberg Mino D speakers whose Herculean construction is designed to reduce cabinet resonances and the finish is impeccable- this obviously adds to the cost. The Diamond tweeter obviously is costly. It is not some mere random markup. I’m fortunate that I could afford this speaker which is the lowest model from trickle down technology from Tidal.
I also have the Constellation Inspiration electronics. Again I’m the beneficiary of trickle down technology as my electronics are Constellation’s entry level. These were listed in TAS top 50 bargains. This doesn’t seem to fit the OPs random markup theory
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….Out comes a price you know the rep made up while sitting in his office wondering how much he can ask those sick people to pay..
This seems false- unless the rep is the manufacturer, reps prices are usually established by the manufacturer. Reps sometimes can offer discounts to get the sale by reducing their profit margin, some manufacturers frown on this.
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Thinking that many speakers craftmanship designers are thieves who makes BIG money selling audiophile speakers is even if it was true a proof that they would be very bad thieves because one make money with vaccines or pharma drugs or banking or financials schemes , drugs and arms traffic, organ traffic etc not with audiophile speakers...😁
I dont even need to know the ratio of price parts cost versus the selling price to know that....
Most reputed speakers craftmanship is born of love not born from hubris...
The problem in audio is not the cost of ultra high end speakers; it is acoustic ignorance...
For sure some increase their price to sell luxury to rich people but it is not really crookery because these products overpriced are easy to spot...
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+1 @ghdprentice
The OP seems very unfamiliar on how businesses work, how pricing is established, which market segments they compete in. He seems to ignores the costs of running a business, the R&D expenditures, and a markup enough to be net profitable/survive. If it were a larger market and thus able to sell more then maybe markups can be reduced offset by volume, but high-end audio is a small niche market.
Audiophiles are not “suckers” blindly paying more thinking that they will get a better sound. We generally are very careful and thoughtful on our choices.
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4/5 times the cost? Good luck with that! It cost us $5K in parts alone to make custom mono block class A amps. The dealer wants 40% of the price. So if we sell them for $15K a pair we make $4K profit. WOW we are getting rich right? Selling 5 of them we get $20K. We are taking everyone to the cleaners right!
Now try selling a number of units to make $100K. Cannot make money as a company doing this. Pay some rent, a few employees, taxes, warranty if and when necessary. You get the point!
Happy Listening.
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OP
Sounds to me like your cynical / lazy side has overwhelmed your rational senses.
I recommend doing some research into the founders and companies like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Pass, Wilson, Boulder, Magico… etc. leading high end companies were founded by men fanatically dedicated to pursuing the high end sound, Few, did not face bankruptcy at some point. These guys never had making a fortune remotely in their mind… only producing spectacular products, the very best possible.
I recommend instead of looking at a price tag and coming up with your own conspiracy theory completely devoid of facts or understanding, do some research and find the answer. It is easy to find. For instance try the Audio Research 50th Anniversary Book. It goes deeply into the endless dedication of the founder / lead designer… like almost any great high end companies. Learn about Wilson, Pass… etc.
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@frankmc195 - I'm afraid all significant tax cuts have gone to those much wealthier than I am.
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You are creative and we made our luck by staying attentive...Congratulations...
Myself i need no more...
I know exactly how to upgrade, with what and for the best cost...
It is important to communicate these facts to help others not to throw money out of the windows in this difficult times...
My speakers modified sound more than good, i will pass for the B&W even it is a deal ... 😊
If someone does not want to quit listening all his music files it is done deal acoustically for me ...I owned 9 headphones, dynamic, electrostatic and planar; i prefer my 200 hundred bucks speakers acoustically well embedded... No company can say and teach simple acoustic truth they will lost half their market.... They prefer to propose costly "upgrades"...
By the way with the incoming world crisis, deals as this one will not lack...But who buy audio components in a world crisis ? I use music as a therapy...
I listen this right now ( i am not religious by the way ) this sound spectacular on my small modified boxes... and therapeutic as revelatory 😉 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zENXZYhY_vs&t=4s
@mahgister
Time to become garage sale junkie driving around in pickup truck in the richest neighborhoods.
You can get everything there even cheaper.
I’m living example. I’ve forgotten path to hi-end dealer and I forgot an amazon and ebay link all together.
How about a couple of B&W N3 for $400 per pair MINT?
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@mahgister
Time to become garage sale junkie driving around in pickup truck in the richest neighborhoods.
You can get everything there even cheaper.
I’m living example. I’ve forgotten path to hi-end dealer and I forgot an amazon and ebay link all together.
How about a couple of B&W N3 for $400 per pair MINT?
There's 88 years old dude with around 2b net-worth currently in the coma under the ventilator and he's got MBL speakers and components. His kids are both dumber then Coala bear and his wife has never been out of Rx drugs for the past few decades. Guess What's coming next...
me offering 2 grand for entire set and if too low, I'll ad another 500.
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I created my acoustic room with plumber tubes from my basements for 100 Helmholtz resonators...
I used mechanical crossfeed to improve the holographic acoustic perception..
I used foldable screens as lenses and diffusors or absorbers or reflectors...And many other improvised devices at very low costs , a few bucks, nothing marketed as tweaks except springs and cheap Schumann generators i modified etc ...
I lost my room...
I dwelved then in my unloved 200 bucks small speakers i owned from 10 years ago or 12 and put them on computer function for all this time because i never bother to optimize them to begin with ...After the lost of my acoustic room i had no other choice nor any other speakers to work with save the unloved one ...
I transformed them with cardboard and straws and isolation and damping and i put them in a small acoustic corner of my basement ... They go now from their unsufficient 85 hertz to 50 hertz which is enough 😁... My best optimization control was wood plates beside each speakers to mechanically decrease crosstalk in near field listening now...
My system is so good in near listening i cannot quit the music imaging, timbre and soundstage...
This small box system is better than my past headphones, with the exception of my main audiophile system now headphone based...
How is the cost of audiophile experience ? Peanuts costs if you learn basic electrical, mechanical, and especially acoustical embeddings controls...
By the way i am not an engineerr nor a very talented craftworthy person.... .But many experiments cost nothing and acoustic is fun to learn in its basic...Forget equations, experiment with the simple principles behind the equations and dont bother for perfection...
We must learn how to hear using acoustic concepts applied...
Audio is like medecine , learn to know your body needs and stay away from doctors if not chirurgically necessary; and learn acoustic basics and stay away from audio marketing....
Many people prefer to pay than to learn because it takes time and they prefer the power of money to knowledge..... Marketers count on this to make money...
I’ve never called myself "we" even during communism and have seen stereo system built from scrap components (in Cuba) and sounding TERRIFIC.
Have you ever seen a card-board upright bass?
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The essay by Steven Stone is a good one, but awfully ironic; he has long written reviews for The Absolute Sound, which mainly features coverage of very expensive hi-fi gear. Has Stone been over to Fremer's house? 😉
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@mike_in_nc The next time a tax cut comes up.... refuse it. You may have more money than you know what to do with so this post probably isn't really for you.
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I’ve never called myself "we" even during communism and have seen stereo system built from scrap components (in Cuba) and sounding TERRIFIC.
Have you ever seen a card-board upright bass?
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@oddiofyl 5K in some of todays market wouldn't come near purchasing the hifi gear currently available. However having said that, if you are frugal you can get some good deals on very good sounding gear. Some of the very expensive stuff, I just look at and never consider buying.
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