I’m not complaining about the sound reproduction I can get off two speakers in a room at home. It’s the best ever! I can close my eyes and enjoy.
Listening location at a live performance greatly determines what you hear.
Also every recording is different just like every live concert.
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As you say we are at the mercy of what the recording engineers lay down, and that’s always an interpretation of the original event to some extent. Also, when you hear live music it’s often in a larger, open venue as opposed to our relatively smaller listening rooms, and the room has a huge impact on what we hear. Put a four-piece jazz band in your listening room and it’s gonna sound way different from how they sound in a jazz club. That said, I still really enjoy the sound my system produces in the context of my room even if it’s not quite as good as hearing the live event. It’s still good enough that it can, especially with good recordings, suspend disbelief that I’m not listening to a real performance, which is a main goal of hifi IMHO.
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OP What are your observations on the state of the art compared to the real thing? For those technical competent, any explanation why we are not closer?
The most expensive microphones are from 1940s~50's. They sound great. The world's best mic right now is Wavetouch mics. Yes. Finally, modern mics catch up the sound of those 80 years old mics.
Wavetouch mic sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9couuLwOYLs
Mic and speaker have a same topology. If one can make the best sound speaker, one can make the best mic too and vice versa.
Wavetouch speaker: https://youtu.be/2ru4D-mOMdo?si=Lj8ZagayG11DqhWq
Alex / wavetouch audio
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I think we are not closer because we are chasing the wrong thing. I go to lots of live concerts and have never heard the pinpoint imaging thing that many audio systems are tuned for. Really TAS caused this and took the focus off of tonality and saturation of tone, and the manufacturers then capitulated to get glowing reviews, IMHO.
Not to say that many dont enjoy the effect, or that it does not enhance some folks pleasure of audio replay on the home.
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@jsalerno277
What you said is an opinion, not an expose. It's mostly true, but we all know that our systems aren't nearly as real as the real thing, so...
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Thank you for your observations. I understand what you are saying. I think there are a lot of companies chasing different sound... as you have mentioned. Like you, I have spent a lot of time listening to live acoustic music, with the intent moving my system to reproduce natural musical sound. Some companies are trying to produce equipment that captures the gestalt and proportional sound quality of the real experience. Companies like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, and Sonus Faber. if your objective is fidelity with the real thing, it can be approached very closely. But I think this is not the intent of most companies / users... it is often to "sound great" which varies enormously from person to person.
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Nyu just did the first successful pig to human transplant.i think they grew it.now that's good science.i trained in upstate.nyc has it all.fun to visit.enjoy the music everywhere
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I think the mcintosh house is near there.i want to visit.
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You can never reproduce the point source of each instrument in a live venue with a mash of those individual instruments presented through a single transducer.
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I am going to create a product named Live Music Generator that will take any studio performance and elevate it to the level of a live performance.
It consists of 12 bookshelf speakers randomly placed in the listening room. At random intervals, the sounds of a live performance are added to the studio recording. Here's a small sample:
- Crackling candy wrappers
- Loud, rude chatter
- Coughing
- Farting
- Sneezing
- Creaking chairs
- Ice sloshing around in paper cups
- Laughing
- Doors slamming
Enjoy the show, and have a Merry Christmas all.
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If one looks at the steps of recording and playback, it seems a miracle that it can sound fairly real. But trying to chase “real” in one’s audio chain can be foolhardy if expectations aren’t realistic (poor recordings, difficult room..), it’s much better to chase personal subjective satisfaction.
This isn’t some competition of reality vs high-end audio sonics, the later is simply a hobby - both can be enjoyed.
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They turned a pig into a human? Wicked!
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@_dalek__ Spot on. Humorous but true. There should be on-the-spot expulsions for all of the above. Except if the fart is silent.
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I don't live in a concert hall or a music venue so I never expect what I hear to sound like the 'real thing', whatever that may be, as even at the concert hall or music venue, it will sound very different depending on where in the venue you're listening from.
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I've tried everything. 6'-4" labyrinths in the listen room. Multiple subs. Monster amps. Even dozens of candle scents. But, listening to my Big Sounds of the Drags album at home doesn't duplicate the pavement pounding, eardrum-shattering SLP levels, nor the smell of burning rubber and spent nitro of the live performance at the drag strip.
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This thread has gone from silly to senseless.
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The OP’s questions are good, although ’the real thing’ is slippery. In this case it seems to apply mainly to acoustic music in good sounding concert halls, classical music perhaps.
So what about rock for example? I go to rock concerts to get the live experience, the extra something beyond the recording and production in the studio. But for sound? Seldom. I rather listen to the best recordings and productions of the songs, in a good audio system, at home.
In this case, "the real thing" is to reproduce the music as good as possible as it was recorded and produced. Usually in the studio. With increasing emphasis on production, from the mid 60s onwards. Not just a good recording, but production as part of the art.
This means that you usually cannot hear "the real thing" in live setting. It exists only on the reproduction, the album or track. For example, I cannot hear I am the walrus, or Strawberry fields forever, in a concert, even if all the Beatles were alive and well today. What I can do, however, is to get such songs to sound as good and "real" as possible, compared to the intention - from the producers, engineers, and the artists involved.
I use large bipole speakers (Audiokinesis Dream Makers) that excel in reproducing live concerts and a three dimensional sound, with very good timbre and tonality. Live recordings are often a joy. Still, for the best sound, I usually go to the studio albums.
On a basic level I understand what the OP is talking about. I play a c flute, alto flute, and some guitar, often trying to play along with the music reproduced from my system. There is certainly a distance, between what I hear from the live instrument, and what I hear from the playback. Especially with the flute. Even if the distance is smaller, with the best recordings.
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I saw David Bowie in concert one time, at Meadowlands if I recall. Let's just say he lived up to his reputation as a terrible live performer. His band was mediocre; a couple of regulars and session guys showing up for the paycheck. Terrible arena acoustics. I was actually glad it was over.
Later at home, I put Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars on the platter, lowered the tonearm, sat back, and soon everything was all right again. Just sayin
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@viridian i whole heartedly agreed. TAS, especially its founding EIC Harry Pearson focused on pinpoint imaging. However, he also established a lexicon to describe timbre, tonality, and saturation of tone (what I was describing as image density and palpability). I have established a system to focus on exactly what you have identified. I tried to describe how I feel the sound stage of the real thing develops where the focus of an individual instrument is blurred by the primary harmonics of other instruments, secondary harmonics of the instrument, and venue acoustic reflections. I find the recordings by the 2L label are beginning to approach this on my system, as well as a few other labels. I find the much desired Mercury Living Presence somewhat exaggerated sound stage, but with timbre, tonality and saturation you speak. When I speak of the real thing I mean acoustic instruments, not amplified, such as a jazz ensemble or orchestra. This is where I believe the state of the art has room for improvement. Also realize pinpoint imaging is correct for many studio albums where performers are isolated in sound booths and engineers establish the mix. Here, the state of the art should permit us to hear the mix as imagined by the engineer. I feel this has been accomplished to the most part.
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@mark200mph, @noromance, @ronboco
I posted times before I am first a music lover and second, an audiophile. This produces a degree of dissociative personality disorder where I have two distinct listening modes - 90% of the time listening for enjoyment and reveling in the composition and performance, 10% of the time critical listening as an audiophile. As an audiophile, my pursuit is a system that approaches the sound of the real thing. It may never be. However, Albert Einstein said: “Imagination is everything. It is a preview of life’s coming attractions. A person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts.” I will dream.
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@waytoomuchstuff The drag strip is, truly, sensory overload. Ain't nothing like the smell of burned nitro mixing with the olfactory rush of deep fried turkey legs and burning rubber all swathed in 140 db of rampaging funny car.
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@acresverde I took a peak at your system post. Surprised at the synapse short circuit I caused based on the sophistication of your system. Horns not a fav of mine but your system and attention to detail lends me to conclude you know what you are doing and must be able to relate at some level to what I am saying.
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This is perhaps the most covered topic on REGs audio forum. (REG is Robert Greene, the longtime reviewer in TAS.)
The two speakers which immediately wowed me as they had a live music vibe re their spaciousness, imaging and even tonality were the Spica TC-50 and Magnepans. (Being so relatively inexpensive, I own both.)
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i dont understand how we could compare such different experiences which cannot be compared...
Your location in a big Hall will determine for a big part everything...
In your room your acoustics parameters and location...
These 2 different experience can be valuable...But will remain forever different...
i am happy with my system ability and his limitations...Because i was in control of them not a victim...Nothing is more gratifying than to be responsible for a well tuned system/room...
I will not compare my experience with my room /system to any lived experience... They differ too much positively and negatively at the same time with one another in respect to their advantages and inconvenience...
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@saboros Bringing back memories of excellent products and transformative experiences.
A friend had the TC-50s driven by top of the line Counterpoint electronics and sourced by a Sota Star Sapphire with a Gram tone arm and Koetsu Rosewood. Magic.
Don’t hold me to the dates. Somewhere around 1995, say +/- 2 years, I was at Lyric in White Plains NY, where Jim Winey of Magnepan gave a lecture on the lllA design. The source was a Sota Star Sapphire and Koetsu Rosewood. I do not remember the tone arm. The speakers were driven by an Audio Research SP-11 and M-300 mono blocks. Nils Lofgren was spinning. Transformative. The image had weight and dimensional palpability. Timbre true. I brought a Proprious recording of Gregorian instruments and chants in a European Church. I would have to dig it out of archive to give specifics. The back and side walls of the church were evident. My first experience of true high end reproduction even though I still feel we have a way to go to the real thing.
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@_dalek__ +1 I hope to never reproduce the experience of my last few live music concerts. Incessant talkers/yelling, restless people constantly on the move, poor quality sound in poor sounding venues.
I don't understand how the live concert experience has become the de facto gold standard for listening to music. I've been attending live music performances for over five decades, some sound reinforced others not. I'd never want to reproduce at home the drivel vast majority of amplified concerts. On rare occasions volume is reasonable, sound quality fair, but then you have atrocious environmental noise levels. Acoustic or minimal sound reinforcement performances generally better on sound quality front, excessive environmental noise can still remain salient and bothersome for me. The idea visual senses also being stimulated at live events also underestimated or neglected altogether, this sometimes distracts my aural senses.
I much prefer the controlled environment of home listening vs live performance.
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to the OP …. quite astute… keep chasing and wondering and being blessed with a dearth of acoustic music in reverberant space… Loved and appreciated your 2L comments
in my own field recording experience / experiment… the first introduction of distortion is microphone selection… there are no perfect transducers… quickly followed by microphone placement… then … , well you get the idea..
You can of course try a relatively simple and not terribly expensive sojourn down the path by hiring a small string ensemble to play in your listening room and capture using the affordable zoom recorder…
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Try 2L recording of Cantus - Kyrie for hall, harmonics, bloom and image diffusion and imo as called for specificity…. stunning on even a well executated basic system…
note Cantus playing on NPR this eve…
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