@mark200mph, @noromance, @ronboco
I posted times before I am first a music lover and second, an audiophile. This produces a degree of dissociative personality disorder where I have two distinct listening modes - 90% of the time listening for enjoyment and reveling in the composition and performance, 10% of the time critical listening as an audiophile. As an audiophile, my pursuit is a system that approaches the sound of the real thing. It may never be. However, Albert Einstein said: “Imagination is everything. It is a preview of life’s coming attractions. A person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts.” I will dream.
There Is Nothing Like the Real Thing - Our State of the Art
This is a long expose’. My apologies in advance. Perhaps you will find it enjoyable or thought provoking. Perhaps you will find me in need of therapy.
I am lucky to live in the NYC suburbs that provide multifarious venues for all genres of music, dance, and theater within the inner city and beyond. There are the large venues (Carnegie Hall, Koch Theater, Metropolitan) but many smaller venues where ensembles perform. This weekend I attended a Fever Candlelight Concert of seasonal music at the St. Mark’s Episodical Church in Mount Kisco NY performed by the Highline String Quartet sitting about 25 feet from the performers in a warm acoustic environment. Much enjoyable. Vivaldi L’inverno evoked a tear. However, every time I come home from a live performance, I reflect on the state of the art of musical recording and playback, with feelings that as far as technology has advanced in the past 10 years, we are far off from the real thing. I have spent much time with $1mm systems at dealers and have curated a system within my means that focuses on timbre, dynamics, and image density, at least to my ears. But after listening to the real thing, I have the following observations:
1. Organic nature of reproduced music cannot approach the sweetness, liquidity, and palpability of the real thing. The real thing is detailed but never with harsh artifacts that I still hear even in $1mm systems. Massed orchestral strings is the best example of where the state of the art is getting better, but still far off from the sweetness and liquidity of the real thing.
2. Imaging and staging of reproduced music cannot approach the real thing. I find systems homogenizes the sound field and some separate the sound field images in excess compared to the real thing. When in a live venue, there images are distinct but the secondary harmonics from the instruments and the reflected sounds from the venue mix and diffuse the images in a manner that recorded and reproduced music cannot capture.
3. The dynamics of recorded and reproduced music have a different quality than the real thing. Dynamics is where the state of the art has much improved. Macro and microdynamics of systems I like are well reproduced. The difference I hear is that the leading edge of the real thing is powerfully evident but never harsh. It’s forceful and relaxed at the same time.
4. Many systems today produce vivid detail but in a manner different than the real thing. The way the bow, strings, and sounding board/body of the instrument develops and ripples out into the venue in an integrated manner is getting closer, but not yet there. This, combined with my comments on imaging/staging produce detailed sound that progresses from a point source outward in three dimensions. As an analogy, the detailed sound wave images progress into the venue like the visual image of a fireworks exploding in the sky. Recorded music playback is getting closer, but it’s not the real thing.
I believe the recording technology is most at fault. This belief stems from the fact that some recording labels consistently come closer to the real thing. For example, certain offerings from Reference Recordings, 2L, Linn, Blue Note, and Stockfish produce timbre, staging/imaging, and dynamics closer to the real thing. I do not understand recording engineering to understand why.
What are your observations on the state of the art compared to the real thing? For those technical competent, any explanation why we are not closer?
Showing 13 responses by jsalerno277
@viridian i whole heartedly agreed. TAS, especially its founding EIC Harry Pearson focused on pinpoint imaging. However, he also established a lexicon to describe timbre, tonality, and saturation of tone (what I was describing as image density and palpability). I have established a system to focus on exactly what you have identified. I tried to describe how I feel the sound stage of the real thing develops where the focus of an individual instrument is blurred by the primary harmonics of other instruments, secondary harmonics of the instrument, and venue acoustic reflections. I find the recordings by the 2L label are beginning to approach this on my system, as well as a few other labels. I find the much desired Mercury Living Presence somewhat exaggerated sound stage, but with timbre, tonality and saturation you speak. When I speak of the real thing I mean acoustic instruments, not amplified, such as a jazz ensemble or orchestra. This is where I believe the state of the art has room for improvement. Also realize pinpoint imaging is correct for many studio albums where performers are isolated in sound booths and engineers establish the mix. Here, the state of the art should permit us to hear the mix as imagined by the engineer. I feel this has been accomplished to the most part. |
@acresverde I took a peak at your system post. Surprised at the synapse short circuit I caused based on the sophistication of your system. Horns not a fav of mine but your system and attention to detail lends me to conclude you know what you are doing and must be able to relate at some level to what I am saying. |
@saboros Bringing back memories of excellent products and transformative experiences. A friend had the TC-50s driven by top of the line Counterpoint electronics and sourced by a Sota Star Sapphire with a Gram tone arm and Koetsu Rosewood. Magic.
|
Many, including @pgaulke60 , have responded about the inconsistency of the acoustics of live performances, at times great and at times, awful. I believe the examples given have been for music that is amplified, such as some genre of rock music. I could not agree more. As a music lover, attending live performances is more for the experience and excitement generated by the performers, crowd, and event. I also have been to concerts of amplified music where the sound was awful. I remember on particular Bruce Springsteen and the E-Street Band concert at the Meadowlands, NJ where my wife and used makeshift tissue earplugs to save our hearing which also attenuated the high frequency shrill. Regardless, we still danced in our seats. I also heard Bruce solo on Broadway and even though amplified, the acoustic was well done, intimate and warm. When I speak of the real thing as my benchmark, I mean unamplified, acoustic music. This is because, like any recording, amplified live music puts our ears at the mercy of the engineers and venue. I am also not saying we cannot use amplified music as a benchmark. We can use to for reproduction of the power, dynamics, and PRaT of our systems. However, timbre, imaging/staging, micro and macro dynamic contrasts are best served by acoustic, unamplified music as the benchmark. I will still go to and enjoy live, amplified music, but it is for the experience of composition and performance from a “rock concert” perspective. My expectations regarding the venue acoustic is different than going to Carnegie. |
@northman Do not apologize for an intellectual, stimulating, and intuitive analysis of the direction of society away from the “direct, sensuous experiences of the artistic imagination” based on “the tease of postmodernism and the promise of AI”. Artistically stated from a literary perspective and in my opinion so true. I hope you have not taken my post as a belief in the “false promise”. However, as an audiophile, I will continually be impassioned to elevate recorded music reproduction to as close to my interpretation of the real thing for it truly “inspires me to appreciate the real thing, in part by triggering my memories of the ecstasy of art”. I will always engage in the arts never embarrassed by being emotionally overwhelmed, whether it is literature, art, dance, music, or architecture. I hope I have passed the ability to appreciate and quelled any fear of expressing emotion openly to my children when experiencing the arts. Thank you for such a most stimulating post. |
@helomech Omnidirectional speaker designs have existed for over 60 years. One of the first I recall is the Ohm Walsh. Other brands are German Physiks, MBL, Mirage, Linkwitz Labs, Dueval, Morrison Audio, and one DCM model from the 80s with a multiple tweeter array. Some brands were more successful than others at reproduction of “real thing” soundstage. The best I have heard are the MLB Radialstrahler series of speakers if you can afford the price of entry. There soundstage is what I have attempted to describe as that produced in a live acoustic music concert - evident imaging but diffused by secondary harmonics and hall ambience. Much different than the razor sharp images produced by Magico offerings. MLB produces music approaching the thing of attention is payed to set up because Omnidirectional speakers will exacerbate room issues. Regarding recording technology, labels I mentioned before such as reference recordings, Linn, 2L, and old Murcury Living Presence publish in their packing inserts, liners or in peer reviewed literature the microphone placement techniques they use. |
@jnovak I respect your position for the beauty of the audiophile hobby, and musical appreciation, is that we personally choose how we wish to participate, from system components choices that sound best to us, to musical genres we appreciate, to venues we frequent. Personally, the greatest satisfaction is a live acoustical performance where there is aural immediacy and intimacy combined with visual stimuli that evoke emotion in a way that recorded and reproduced music cannot. To paraphrase part of @northman s eloquent post, I will strive for improvements to make my system approximate the “rest thing” but this only to “inspire me to appreciate the real thing, in part by triggering my memories of the ecstasy of art.” |
@g2the2nd We are on the same page regarding soundstaging of acoustic, in amplified live performances. Recorded and reproduced music is getting closer, but it cannot capture the “presentation is part of the whole flow of the music as it washes over you rather … a point on the soundstage”. See my previous comments on staging, secondary harmonics, and hall ambience effects and their diffusion of images that creat the effect you describe and record labels coming closer than others in engineering that captures this. |
It appears this community is divided into two camps with regard to preference for “the real thing” and the state of the art of music recording and reproduction. I will attempt to generalize some conclusions. One camp prefers live performances (amplified or acoustic, with the latter the majority). They cite their preference is based a the artistic, immersive and immediate nature of the performance where all senses are stimulated. The camp notes differences in timbre, staging, imaging and dynamics from recorded and reproduced music, preferring live performances. The second camp prefers recorded and reproduced music. The camp cites the ability to hear all performers without smearing and loss of detail due to hall effects, and no distractions from the audience . There is a preference for the staging , imaging, and dynamics of recorded and reproduced music and no issues with timbre. Both camps are neither right or wrong for it is what they prefer. I will always prefer a live performance of acoustic music regardless of genre, and support all of the arts (music, dance, theater, and the visual arts including architecture). I also will frequent amplified rock and jazz performances but there are separate expectations for this experience as I attempted to articulate in this thread. I will to strive to make my system approach my ideal of the “real thing” within my means for it “inspires me to appreciate the real thing, in part by triggering my memories of the extract of art. “ Thank you again @northman for your eloquent post. I hope regardless of our position on live vs recorded music and the state of the art or recording and reproduction technology, we will support all of the arts this new year and on. Let’s do are part to assure the performing and visual arts flourish healthy. I wish all health and happiness for the new year. |