The Audio Science Review (ASR) approach to reviewing wines.

After attempting to read this discussion, I got a hangover now.

Here’s a very nice Tom Martin review of the Perlisten speaker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leL1vXcKhZw

Think we all know how Perlisten speakers tend to measure, pretty freaking good.

But, i’d like for a reviewer to be articulate the sound of it as good as Tom. He isn’t even 'selling' anything in this review, he tells ya who it may work for and who it may not work for..

Is the ASR Reviewer (Revel/Harman dealer/sales guy, Madrona Digital) capable of doing such a review? There are speakers that measure and sound better than Harman trash, but, he’ll find a way to diss them...gotta worry about Madrona Digital sales...not to mention that he sounds like a water bottle with a hundred holes.

Still trying to wrap my head around the need for a scale to tell me I gained 10 lbs. 

so, perspective is a thing, I guess if you weigh 250 lbs, 10 lbs might be gained un-noticed.

Going to wine, what is your perspective? taste and flavor or getting tipsy? you have to admit, some people drink wine with the purpose of getting their buzz on, so taste is not as important as the alcohol content (measurable). They may not want to spend the $ needed for the bouquet of flowery bliss and head straight to the 5 buck chuck or even Thunderbird - it gets the job done...

Comes down to what YOU are there to enjoy. Measurables only measure what you are measuring - sounds like a Zappa line - If you can't measure it, like flavor, it becomes opinion and other opinions always influence your opinions so the opinion is clouded because of your unique perspective.

Ok, maybe I need to go back to work.  

Here’s my issue with ASR

Several years ago when building a stereo system I discovered ASR who strongly recommended the Benchmark line. I purchased their DAC, Pre and Amp. While I found I was mostly satisfied with the result. Then after a few years I became dissatisfied with how clinical the sound seemed. I particularly was not happy with how the upper mids and lower treble were presented and found them somewhat bright and up front. So eventually over several months I replaced the Benchmak units. When I posted on ASR that I found an amplifier that sounded much better to me than the Benchmark (the Accuphase P4600) I was told there was no way any amp would sound better than the Benchmark since it tested perfectly. I was imagining it. I had convinced myself it was better since I spent the money. I told them I had compared several amps to the Benchmark (Bryston, Mac, NAD) using my speakers and DAC and the Bryston and Accuphase were noticeably superior. They refused to believe it and basically told me I was delusional. Seemed pretty rigid in thinking. Refused to believe any amp would noticeably audibly perform better than the Benchmark in my system. Seemed a little cult like to me as there are some there that can be quite hardcore.

@hilde45 "Measurements" is too crude a word. @prof was pointing at this issue and this comment ignores it.

Some measurements are, say, 2nd harmonic distortions -- those may upset some at ASR, but the rest of us understand that those measurements are NOT aligned with "bad sound" as some of us experience that. (Others here do NOT like that 2nd harmonic. So, this varies.)

ASRs whole approach of anything that measures bad sounds bad, and the inability to describe how things sound or what people prefer sometimes - is a nonstarter for me. It all comes back to what people hear and what they enjoy most, and no metric tells us this very well. The human ear/brain is sophisticated, and enjoys a lot more than todays graphs demonstrate. I believe today’s sensors and tools fall short, by a lot.

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Tube amplifiers are known for their "euphonic" distortions, which can add a pleasant warmth and richness to the sound. Tube amplifiers tend to produce even-order harmonic distortion, which is more musical and pleasing to the ear.

Even-order harmonic distortion means that the distortion components are harmonically related to the original signal, creating a sound that is perceived as fuller and more natural. This type of distortion can enhance the listening experience, especially for musicians. I’d rather ask a musician what they prefer.

@hilde45   nice post.  Only thing I’d add @toronto416 is that, with respect to power conditioning products, I think one can make a much stronger case for a measurements-first mentality there than for virtually any other product.  The point is to “filter out noise” or “lower the noise floor”.  These are very easy to measure, and I would argue harder to objectively and consistently hear.  So it is precisely for these sorts of products that ASR is most useful, in my view, particularly as it’s an area of the industry most prone to fraud and misrepresentation.  If someone says their products filter the AC mains, why on god’s green earth wouldn’t you want someone to measure that for you before you spent a dime of your hard-earned money?  

While Amir is definitely aloud to have his opinion, it’s rarely shared by me, so I haven’t looked at his channel in years.

I’d ask the clown car that does freq domain snapshots to measure my violins or my piano....bet that would go well/swell...

"Bad violin", said the dingus dumbernicus...

A good friend of mine is a winemaker of some renown. I've been following his efforts since he started out, I've helped with winemaking many times, we had numerous conversations about the fine points of the craft during which I learned an awful lot and, of course, I freely offered my unbiased feedback based on consuming vast amounts of the product. I'm a helpful guy. 

To make a long story short, winemaking is science-driven to an extent that truly surprised me back then. A good winemaker, or brewer, or distiller for that matter, is in large part a chemist and on the ground level, the incremental experimenting, documentation and chain of custody are straight out of science 101.

OP should familiarize himself with enologists and what they do.

ASR has value. Audiogon has value. Other venues and publications have value too. The more points of view - and data points - we have, the more empowered we are to make choices. Which, ultimately, are for us to make.

@analog_aficionado this seems like the most complete explanation of the disparity between certain audiophile communities and ASR.  I'll try to enhance your points without reiterating too much.

Measurements have their place.  The measurements aren't the problem with ASR.  the problem is the mob of people that pounce anyone that says "hey this is better even though it measures poorer"

As if someone could hear the difference between -120 THD and -110.  I agree that at this point, most of these numbers are meaningless as we are well below the 1% THD threshold.  Which is another funny point in all this.  ASR claims to say "you can't tell the difference between amps and cables" based on studies done over 50 years ago, and yet will quibble over -100 Sinad vs -120.  It seems completely absurd to me to both say you're WITH the science, and at the same time be quibbling over measurements that should have NO audible effect based on the "science"

And I have a problem with him listening to the speakers, but not any other equipment because "it all sounds the same" - then what is the point of measuring all of this junk????

After hearing things that they don't measure make a truly substantial differences in my system (Shunyata power conditioning and cabling, proper speaker cabling), I realize that I can only use them for measurements and for feature set breakdowns, NOT for choosing my equipment.

The sad thing is, the "happy panther" scale always rewards the highest measuring equipment because of the horde of stat hunters that are ready to say it's better without hearing any of it.

It's sad really.  These guys are all audio lovers but are sitting there with their $500 topping DACs and amplifiers, running their kefs, with amazon basics wiring thinking they have the best system money can buy.  I used to be angry about it but now I just feel sorry for them.  Sorry that they probably will never experience what a true hi-fi system can do to a person.  Great discussion here, OP