I currently have ($10K) Olympica Nova II speakers, ($11K) McIntosh MA9000 integrated amp and a (~$1.5K) Cambridge Audio 851N network player. The weak link here seems to be the Cambridge unit.
I'm prepared to upgrade my streamer/DAC situation and my budget is about $4-6K. Although there are SO many options out there and it's tough to tell where I'll find the most value. My assumption is that the DAC is going to play a much larger part in sound quality than the Streamer. I play music primarily through Tidal. I don't have requirements for server storage or any other sophisticated source capabilities.
Many of the network players come with a pre-amp which I am assuming I should rule immediately. That pre-amp would be taking a share of the overall budget. On the other hand I was thinking maybe I should buy separates. I could max out the DAC and get something good enough for the streaming. Or even continue to use the Cambridge if I really wanted. Having a beautiful screen on a good looking streamer would be nice but seems like lower priority in terms of bang for buck.
Curious to hear people's thoughts. Are there any specific units anyone would recommend as either an all in one network player or as separates? The Auralic ALTAIR G2.1 seems like the ideal all in one but it's at the very peak of my budget.
Aurender N200 or Lumin T3 both punch well above..... Aurender N200 is not Roon compatible where as Lumin is. This isn’t the first time I’ve typed I was never going to use Roon until I did. Software interface is an integral experience part of the joyous experience. As creepy AI is when a playlist or album is finished paying Roon (Heck most of ’em) plays something so similar you’d think you selected it to play next.
There are sooooo many threads on Agon about DAC(s), Streamers or all in ones. I bet a blueberry pie you could find over 3141 mentions of Qubuz run with Roon.
As @lalitk mentioned it could well be other parts of your set up. Your room, units, cords, internet path into steamer, your power and power supplies matter. What’s the power cord of the Cambridge Audio and what’s it plugged into......
It is no secret a better streamer will likely deliver better sound especially if you use high grade ethernet cables, switches, filters and all the goodies. With the ones and zeros this makes a considerable audible difference.
The new ifi neo stream is worth looking at. Many inputs including optical and a little Oled. Built-in DAC or USB and more outputs gives flexibility for better DAC. I wish it had XLR out, is only provided with RCA analog out
Lots of great suggestions for a DAC and streamer. I won't add to the confusion, although I'm partial to separates and Denafripts and Aurenders. My comment is regarding your speakers and amp. I recently heard (auditioned) your speakers with MAC. While I'm sure there is better, it was a very nice combination and something I would definitely hang onto for awhile. Your priority should continue to be the DAC/streamer as you originally asked about.
Hi @jpearson3131 I second the thought that the Mac is not the best. Much clearer, more resolving components from many companies. Also, most DACs stream as well. I have a Tambaqui DAC very top line, but later adding a separate Auralic Aries G2.1 streamer madee a big improvement. Also I, have an Altair G1in a vacation home, and it is awesome, so I would assume that the nicer Altair G2.1 would be great. I think easily better than the Cambridge. GTT sells al the Auralic stuff and Bill has good advice. An Audionet Watt integrated would blow the socks off the McIntosh. He could also describe the differences in the Altair and the Vega DACs, since they seem to do similar things.
So many amazing replies here! I’m leaning my investment into a great DAC first and streamer second. My inclination is separates because I don’t ever think I’ll be done messing around with equipment.
That being said, the Auralic Vega G2.1 is at the top of my list right now. From what I gather the cost is going primarily into the DAC. Auralic makes a separate dedicated digital transport, so the Vega is really all about the DAC which has streaming capabilities. One of the industry people I follow, John Darko, places this DAC near the top of his all time list.
I just hope they don’t release a new version soon after I buy it!
I have both setups, all in one and separates. The all in one is the Auralic Vega G1 and the separates are a Bryston BDA-3 DAC with the Sonore ultraRendu for streaming. Both are wonderful, but I do prefer the Auralic Vega G1 for its compact design, wonderful screen that shows me the album art work and how simple it is to set up and stream both from my extensive collection of digital files (all types of formats) and streaming services, not to mention all in one box saves on cable expenses that then can go into the equipment. I have both connected via Ethernet and use ROON to manage my streaming; both my digital files and streaming music from streaming services.
The advantage of separates are if one goes on the blink you don't loose both DAC and Streamer, and if you decide you want to upgrade the DAC down the line due to improvements you only spend money on the DAC.
From what I understand the DAC is the most important piece between the two pieces of equipment but the Steamer is also very important so thinking about spending the lion's share on a DAC and then picking up an OK streamer, in my opinion, is not a good road to take. Do not cheap out on the streamer it is important and you won't be able to fully appreciate the DAC if you have a mediocre streamer.
Lastly think about the program you will be managing your files from. Some streamers come with OK programs while others are much better, then there is third party programs such as ROON or JRivers. All this should be considered prior to purchasing.
At Deer Creek Audio we believe a fully integrated digital chain is the best approach. The key is using high fidelity chipsets woven together into a precise execution of the I2S bus. Then following digital-to-analog conversion, the signal should be output using premium grade balanced circuits.
At a recent Raleigh audio show (Audio Advice Live), almost all of the demo rooms were using the HiFi Rose RS150. Even with $100k+ and $300k+ speakers. It's 5k.
At a recent Raleigh audio show (Audio Advice Live), almost all of the demo rooms were using the HiFi Rose RS150. Even with $100k+ and $300k+ speakers. It's 5k.
I think it’s worth mentioning, but atypical. I recommend Apple TV 4K s the source. They have a tidal and quobuz app, but Apple music is in my source after years of hoping the other companies were going to better them in quality . Not to mention you can control it from any apple device. Or attach a monitor. You just need a splitter to take the audio stream out of the HDMI output. My system is all Electrocompianet, DAC, Preamp and mono blocks. Then into Maggie 1.7. It’s good to think it’s just a part of the whole system, I’ve auditioned dozens of pricier options Lumin being the top, hated using it (interface) but no real magic. Considering you can demo it easily, it’s 200 bucks out so, try with the Cambridge DAC (had that once upon a time) and see. I went through Denafrips, Topping, and half dozen more DAC’s so you’ll have to see what clicks, but Apple won’t break your budget.
Perhaps keeping the Cambridge and changing to a different dac? Currently using a Bluesound Node2 for its dependability but outputting to Schitt Yggdrasil GS at the moment and like what I’m hearing . I like the ability to change out the dac to experiment with the different characteristics of other units.
Maybe I am missing something in this thread but the MA 9000 has a high quality DAC built in. I would think a streamer with a bit perfect digital out should be all that is needed for excellent sound.
My assumption is that the DAC is going to play a much larger part in sound quality than the Streamer.
I disagree with this IME. Initially I thought the same thing, but everything in the streaming chain from switches to cables to streamers, for whatever reason, seems to make a big difference. Toward that end, I’d buy a separate streamer and DAC as both technologies are progressing quickly so the flexibility to upgrade one when a meaningful improvement occurs in the other you can just upgrade that and keep the other. And I’d recommend spending around 50/50 on the DAC and streamer to keep it balanced. You could do something like a Lumin streamer and a Gustard R26 DAC and have a really great combo that doesn’t break the bank and will likely be a significant upgrade over the Cambridge. Just one option to ponder, and best of luck.
Definitely try to go separates road. Besides better SQ it will give you more flexibility in the future. Consider Qobuz, cause Tidal with their MQA kind a limits you to MQA enabled DACs (only if highest res of Tidal important for you). Your budget is fine, you could get nice Lumin, Auralic or Aurrender streamer with nice R2R or Tube DAC. Another suggestion- get your streamer hard wired with your router using well shielded Cat-7 or 8 LAN cable.
77Jovian - quieter, blacker background, less grain, more detail retrieval and more open. I have an upgraded power supply in the G1 as well. Tough to really do an a/b comparison as with either the Lumin or G1 you have to open the unit up, take the old power supply out. The comparison is all based off the memory of the old power supply and the new one, could be some psychology at play. You void the warranty on the Lumin if you go down that path - big item to point out. Many will point to the power supply as being key on a streamer, in theory makes sense upgrading the power supply would improve performance.
I thought it was work the risk and was happy with the upgrade.
Kind of back to your original consideration, the newer Auralic G1.1 transport might be worth checking out. It’s supposed to be outfitted with a better power supply than the dac version (Tarun the British Audiophile did a good comparison to the earlier model transport). Personally, separates are so the way to go. Albeit, synergy can be a caveat/challenge unless you have a brand preference for sound.
This question gets debated quite often on this forum and others. Seems to be 2 camps on streaming / DAC and which is more important. Most fall into the dac having a bigger impact. I don’t sit in either camp, I think it all matters, can make a difference, think synergy is key. I’ve had a Node 2i, used it as a dac / streamer and as a stand alone streamer feeding Parasound P6 internal dac, have had a Lumin D2 with S/Booster used as an all in one and streamer only. Have a Krell Pre Illisions ii with a DAC, my HT Receiver / Anthem MRX1140 and a MHDT Pagoda balanced. Also used Roon with a laptop in the mix, with the Node / Lumin / Pagoda. Today I have a Aurilac G1 Aries streamer only feeding my Pagoda and I’ll switch over to the Krell DAC from time to time.
My learnings for what they are worth, bang for the buck, Node is a great little unit, Lumin was a clear step up in sound quality as an all in 1 unit. I used both as streamers only, sound quality improved when I put a stand alone streamer into the mix. My favorite combo of them all has been the G1 and Pagoda being run entirely balanced.
My 2 channel is balanced all the way through the chain, the pagoda balanced steps up several levels when balanced inputs /outputs are used as does my Amp, Krell 300xd duo. My experience with Roon was sound quality suffered slightly vs using Lumin / Node or Aurilac software directly. That’s likely due to my system, set up as others love Roon - it does have a great interface, the best I’ve see. I’ve also used a PC / Laptop as the streamer, fed the dac directly, my experience has been things have always sounded noticeably better with a streamer in the chain.
Another huge factor is the software / interface the streamer you pick uses. Node uses Bluos which on my opinion is the best of the bunch, has the most flexibility and staying power. Lumin and Aurilac would be tied, might give a slight edge to Aurilac but negligible. Some will overlook this aspect in a streamer, it will have a massive impact on your enjoyment and ease of use when you stream - listen to music, all 3 listed support their respective platforms, have invested in the ongoing development. Bluos has the most $$ behind it and traction but Lumin and Auralic are more invested specifically in the Audiophile community.
Age old question of All in 1 vs separate Streamer / DAC. Comes down I think to personal preference. If you aren’t a tweaker, you can get a great bang for the buck and synergy which is key from an all in 1. Lumin makes outstanding products in the space - most are all in 1 units. Others that also make fantastic all in 1 products that rival or beat separate set ups. Many companies that make both, to no surprise design their streamer / dacs to perform best when paired together, synergy is key. If you want to swap gear out, hands down, separates is the way to go.
As others have recommended, you might look at the Mac - spend the money you would on a streamer / DAC - buy a highly regarded integrated with a built in DAC. Try that, use your Cambridge unit as a streamer, play around with seeing which you prefer, the Cambridge DAC or the one in the integrated. You can then sell the gear that isn’t the winner of the best sound to you contest, build out from their. I’ve never heard many of the Integrated units talked up, some that get tons of praise along with being referenced as having outstanding DAC’s - Hegel 390 or 590, most think the 390 is the sweet spot. You can get either used at your budget or slightly above, again, never heard either, but reviews are off the charts, if you search you’ll find some other Integrated units that sit in that same camp as having great internal DAC’s built in. If one floated your boat, you can pair with a streamer down the road, then add a different DAC into the equation - DAC rolling instead of tube rolling.
You have gotten a bunch of great recommendations - I didn’t see a brand referenced in the thread that doesn’t make a quality product, really comes down to what you want, simplicity, ultimate synergy or flexibility, being able to tweak, swap out streamers / dac’s. The last comment I’d make is if you are agnostic to all in 1 or separates, dollar to performance ratio along with synergy will be achieved by picking one of the top 5 streamer / dac brands and going with a flagship unit that is all in 1. Used you can probably find those in or near your budget.
Of the products the OP is considering, in the $4K-$6K range, volume control (preamp functions) may have a bigger impact on SQ than the DAC, and an even bigger impact than the streaming functions. A couple of Chinese companies (Lumin and Matrix Audio) make a big deal of their hybrid (digital/analog) approaches to volume control. They offer interesting integrated streamer/DAC/preamps in the $4K-$6K range (or a bit higher). If you're in the USA/Canada and want to stick to North American products (for the service/support), then consider PS Audio (Colorado); Exasound, Bryston, NAD (Canada); Mytek (USA/Poland).
IMO, in the $4K-$6K range, with respect to streaming/DAC/preamp capabilities, you may not notice all that much difference in SQ (again, esp. w.r.t. the streaming). Maybe focus more on features/functions and on the after-sale service/support. With digital components, you'll almost certainly run into software/firmware issues. So it's a plus to have a company with a relatively big user base and a strong service/support presence in North America, the UK, or wherever you are.
While I definitely understand the wisdom of keeping the two separate, I purchased a bundle from Cary Audio. Their DMS650 is a DAC/Streamer priced at $4800. They are always running sales and you could probably get 15% off right now
Unfortunately my only comparison is a Bluesound Node although at a dealer I did quite a bit of listening on a Cambridge unit. The Cary unit had an extremely profound impact on the sound of my system. This was not a night and day, this was a Quantum leap. Not only did the quality and clarity improve dramatically, but the power and impact of the sound was stunning. Maybe that can be said of any DAC and Streamer at that price. Steve Huff said this unit punches above its weight and is an easy recommendation for anyone spending up to 6k coincidentally. They also have B stock on their website which is discontinued models. They have a few DMS 550’s at $2995 right now, but those are exempt from the 30 day return policy.
Based on my experience, the DAC is perhaps the most important component in a digital system. Prior to the Cary, I was on the verge of buying an MA352 and choosing a DAC later. But after hearing the Cary combo, my decision was made. The SQ, nuance and detail were far superior with the Cary combo. What attracted me was the realism and vocals. The drums actually sounded like drums. And I’m a lifelong drummer. The cymbals shimmer and decay naturally. On good to excellent recordings, this combo is stunning. The Cary sound is said to be natural but not fatiguing. I must concur.
Happy hunting.
Your weak link is not only the Cambridge, it’s also your Mcintosh IMO. If you’re looking for value it’s not in Mcintosh. I went to Simaudio from Mcintosh and find it’s way better dollar for dollar especially in the used market. Not saying Simaudio is the best but I’ve heard tons of gear that blows Mcintosh away at way lower price points. In terms of DACs I’d say your suggestion of Auralic G2.1 and use as a preamplifier then buy a decent amplifier like a Pass Labs, Bryston or whatever you like. I’m currently using U1 mini with Denafrips Venus. Sonus Faber Minima Amator 2 and Simaudio 340 i.
@anotherbobyou inspired me to explore the Tidal vs Qobuz question.
My brief listening notes with a couple of Stan Getz tracks, Girl from Ipanema and Desafinado:
Qobuz: slightly higher volume needs equalizing with Tidal. Sound image seems more stable, fixed. Clear left right and center images. More upper mids and bass resolution but doesn’t seem to go as deep. Tried briefly to use dB app to measure differences but unreliable. There seems to be more air and transparency around the bass, more reverb.
Tidal: image seems denser, more depth and bloom. Not as clear and transparent, more bass bloom and depth. It seems to go deeper but couldn’t validate that. It just sounded quite different from Qobuz. If you like lemon gelati, fresh and open you’ll go for Qobuz, if you like rum and raisin ice cream you’ll be a Tidal fan.
I’ve compared Tidal with Qobuz and find Qobuz to be the better sound quality.
Erik_Squires…what makes you think Tidal, or especially Qobuz, are going anywhere? For that matter I’m pretty sure streaming is here to stay for a long while. But then again, many pay big money for the inferior sound quality of vinyl…so who knows.
I too own (but use only for certain streaming radio) the Cambridge 851N. Bear in mind that it is also a DAC and a digital preamp for that $1500. Pairing with a good DAC instantly revealed its shortcomings, forcing me to buy a quality dedicated streamers. Tried several before settling on the Aurender line whose sound fits my ear and whose Conductor app is relatively user-friendly. These come in all price ranges with increasingly more bells and whistles, and greater refinement, as you spend more $. Also, in my experience, good USA product support team.
Now do yourself a second favor and switch to QOBUZ for streaming. I personally find MQA on Tidal phony and unlistenable. Other streaming services are not actually bad -- just not comparable to Qobuz.
I’ve got a Pontus II with a node 2 and added a separate power supply for the node because it was an easy upgrade. IMHO streamers are streamers if you are just doing tidal (that’s all I do). If you had NAS or usb connection it might matter more. So do t over think the streamer and bluesound ain’t going anywhere and supports all the stream services.
so put all your money into the best DAC you can find. Any DAC that has a streamer In it has some design compromise. If you are going for max SQ and you have the budget (you do) then separates is a must not a choice.
Digital is very simple. Get a good Dac and any streamer with stable control app and you are done. I saw that Dave isn’t better Qutest in noise measurements and, Dedicated streamer like Aurender/ Lumin isn’t make my rig sound any hair better than Bluesound Node, Ifi Zen streamer or Mini PC with Audirvana/Jriver. The main different is a look and their price. My worse time finding a Nirvana is end with Mc Amp and Tannoy Speakers. They are perfect for my room decoration with good sound experience
As an entry, Gustard R26 is getting very good reviews as a stand alone Dac. It also has an inbuilt streamer which would simplify things.
I moved away from MacBook as streamer was to a Project Stream Box S2 Ultra. Size was its advantage for me along with its quality. When or if I upgrade the Project will easily move to my headphone system (in its infancy currently).
I am using the N200 with LAB 12 's DAC 1 Reference and it is a great sounding combo. The LAB 12 is 24/192k only but it sounds so good I think I am going to keep it for a while. I also use the N200 to drive my headphone rig. A RME adi2 DAC into a Quicksilver headphone amp. The Aurender actually drives both my main system and my headphone rig. I am really loving this thing. If I didn't have a DAC I would have definitely bought the A200.
I’m trying out a PS Audio Directstream with Mc separates. I found the Mc DAC a bit strident. PSA isn’t quite as exciting and dynamic, but is very smooth and sound more like my turntable. You can get them for about half of used, although a new version will be coming out soon.
I'd do separate DAC and streamer; that way you can upgrade either/or unit if you feel the need later. I'll leave the streamer recommendations to others (I use the latest Bluesound Node 130).
Denafrips Pontus II DAC (alone or with a Denafrips Iris DDC which is amazing) and the Holo Audio Spring 3 (Version 2 or higher) or Holo Audio May DAC are great "bang for the buck" DACs.....$2,000 to $3,500
Given your budget and the quality of your gear, I'd recommend a DAC in the $3000 range (the Denafrips Venus or Holo Audio Spring would be at the top of my list) and a solid but not crazy expensive streamer, maybe a Lumin U2 Mini or one of the less expensive choices from Aurender.
I like your system - I have Sf Nova's as well and I previously owned McIntosh pre and amplification.
I am biased towards DAC/streamer due to space and simplicity. I started with Node 2i, then moved up to Moon 280D and now I have Moon 390 which is also a preamp. The Moon 390 replaced my Moon 280D and McIntosh C2600...it was an upgrade for both. And I sold the McIntosh for more than I paid for it.
If you like the streamer/DAC that happens to be a pre-amp. I wouldn't shy away from it. Your integrated amp can be used just as an amp and if you decided to go to components a streamer/DAC "Network player" provides you flexibility in transitioning to separates (such as MC 312).
It depends on your longer term goals. Will you keep evolving your system to better sound? Or is this next purchase an end point?
I would recommend an Aurender A200 (combined streamer / DAC)… if you just want one and done. I own two Aurender streamers and cannot recommend them too highly.
If this is a step towards a better system, or really getting the most out of your system, then separates. They are both equally important. Aurender for the Streamer and… in that price range I don’t know the perfect DAC. I will say given the rest of your equipment if you want very top notch performance up to the standard of the rest of your equipment I would be looking in the $4 - $6K each range, DAC and Streamer. [my estimate is based on matching to,your speakers] Yes you can get stuff for less money.
Also, I recommend switching to Qobuz. The service sounds a bit better than Tidal but also has half a million high resolution albums versus Tidal… only a few.
I spent more on my DAC than my speakers or my amp. I like them seperate generally since you can never predict your upgrade journey. I would buy either an Allo USBridge Streamer or an IFI Zen streamer, both very good and under $500 and get the best DAC I can get. Upgrade streamer later. I went with Chord Dave DAC and Innuos Zenith Mk3 streamer.
I don’t stream, but I suspect from reading other Forum threads on Audiogon and on WhatsBestForum with respect to your general question, that if going with separate units that the source (streamer) is no less important than the DAC. It is essentially the same with listening via CDs which I do. My personal experience in this regard, and what some other members have also found, is that lesser quality transports do not allow the DAC to realize its SQ potential. hard to believe streaming is any different. And, just my further 2 cents for whatever it may be worth, if the DAC isn’t realizing its full potential , or the all in one unit is simply decent it doesn’t matter what the amplifier is; quality of the source matters to overall system SQ. Also, if you go the separates route consider that your budget also needs to cover the cost of additional cables , whatever your view on cables may be, so a higher SQ quality all in one might be something to continue to consider.
What is about CXN 851N you don’t like? Do you have a another source like CD player or vinyl that you enjoy listening through MA9000. I used to own 851N and it’s a pretty decent streamer / DAC. My gut says the MA9000 could be your weak link.
Before you go spend money on a new DAC/Streamer, try a different Integrated or amp. 851N has a volume control so that gives you a flexibility of trying another tube or SS amp. You could easily spend $6K on a new DAC/Streamer for not whole lot of gain in sound.
Bryston’s DAC is fantastic. The streamer sounds great but has the worst software management program imaginable. I would avoid.
My personal setup is the aforementioned Bryston DAC with the Cambridge Audio CXN 60. If you purchased the Bryston DAC and ran your Cambridge into it it would essentially be the same. I also have the Melco N100 in the system which I mainly use as a NAS, but it can be used as a player via usb and doesn’t sound that different from the CA. I prefer the CA Stream Magic app, and occasionally I use the CA Chromecast to stream content such as the BBC Radio 3 from my phone, so it is just easier to stay with the CA. The Bryston DAC is now getting a bit old in the tooth but at it’s price point I prefer it to the competition that I have been able to audition
I like the idea of a combination DAC/streamer but having them separate, or using Roon, makes me feel more comfortable about their future. The thing I worry about is that Tidal/Quboz will fail and other services will take their place and that the streamer software won't be maintained. Currently I use Roon to a Raspberry Pi 4 based streamer to my Mytek.
I would however focus mostly on sound quality. Get a DAC you are in love with, and whether or not it has a streamer attached should be another issue.
I have a Bluesound Node 2i streamer which I've paired with an MHDT Orchid tube DAC. I upgraded the Bluesound with a separate power supply and the Orchid with new caps and resistors thanks to @grannyring's expert help.
I had a long comparison between the Orchid and the Denafrips Ares II -- the Orchid had a wider, more articulate soundstage and more detailed presence in the tonalities than the Ares. I also compared the Orchid with the much more expensive Holo May DAC ($6k or so) and while the Holo May was better in the same ways the Orchid beat the Ares II, the Orchid held it's own -- I'd say it was about 80% as good as the Holo May.
I've played with tubes in the Orchid, and one can soften or brighten the sound with various tubes; I like that element of tone control. I may decide to step up to the May DAC at some point soon and sell the Orchid, but for now it's quite an amazing value and delivers absorbing musicality.
I just picked up the Aurender N200 and it is a great machine. You should try to check out the A200, it includes DAC and remote. The N200 just streams, you need a DAC. Aurender support is awesome. I had a few questions and they got right back to me. I use Qobuz but I just subscribed to Tidal HiFi + to compare the two. Great machine
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