Speakers sound too bright.

@rwalsh07 "What did you have before the Lintons?"

Let’s see: Bose 901 Series I and IV, Infinity 1001a, Infinity Column II, Infinity Monitor 2A, Infinity RS 2.5, Infinity Renaissance 80, Triangle Celius, Triangle Antals, Magnepan MMG, Magnepan .7, Tekton Perfect Set 2-12, Tekton Perfect Set 15, Moth Audio Cicadas, KEF LS-50s, Klipsch Heresy, M-L Electro Motion ESL, and some others 

Just a reminder/info for everyone.  The OP has a pair of Martin Logan Motion series speakers.  These are typical box speakers with a folded Heil style tweeter. They are not the electrostatics that Martin Logan is better known for.

Your csbles if using a usb cable try the 

Cardas clear cable co 

Around $400 

Or less AQ Coffee

How very disappointing for me go on a really good rant about the wrong speakers! 
 

I remember when I bought a pair of speakers that were the same brand I had but an upgraded pair that I thought sounded too bright. Turning down the treble fixed that for me.

I don't believe a speakers changes sonic characteristics after a period of time.

I didn’t read all 90 something replies, but you somehow you need to get them farther from the front wall. Pull your listening chair closer and make sure the speakers are about the same distance from the side walls as the back. I had a pair of Logan Monoliths. Look up how to do the flashlight trick on your side walls and they probably need at least 100 hours of break in time. When you get everything set up, the sound should almost envelope you. The light trick will help you tow them in and leaning slightly back will also help. Good luck. 

I had that problem the Meitner MA3 Dac calmed everything down just right..if you look on the used market you may find one..

I've pulled some speakers 5' away from any reflective surface to bring the high fq's down. Local dealers use panels like Vicoustics or other brand panels to aid in placement, and tone controls will help attenuate hard sounds in reflective rooms, but thror rugs and window treatments can be our friends.

Yeah bare floors are speaker killers...

If you don't like the way it sounds good out and buy a mini dsp hook it up to your computer and make it sound like you want.time delay graphic eq , crossover ,mapping ,room eq,ect.ohh wait klipsch just put it on the la scala.bryston has it on middle t ect it's the new milenium.if your a purist do it find out your crossover frequency  from the dsp computer then get someone to build your coil and caps put it together. Danny gr research or others parts express could help you. Enjoy the research and the search .expand your horizion.read a book on it.watch  y tube ect.happy listening. If you do it all at low wattage you should not fry anything.i like my sublime accoustics have little modules plug in for frequencies.fun to play with.marchant has electronic crossover even some digital 2 way I play with.it goes between your amp and pre amp.grant it you might have to bi or tri amp it but these class d amps are so economical 100$for fossi audio you can change op amps in 240 watts.what a blast.great audiophile era we live in enjoy it.

Get the laminate covered with area rugs. And break them in. 

Try one of the Schiit EQ components....It may tame the speakers to your liking.

https://www.schiit.com/products/lokius

Why is everyone skipping over this is a dipole 1 foot away from the wall behind them? I dont care how long you burn them in, what treatment you use, the cables, the preamp- NOTHING will fix that "dipole close to the wall behind them" problem.

@lonemountain  The ML speakers the OP has are not dipole, they’re box speakers. 

Hi folks, I'm a little confused here. 

OP states his speakers are Martin Logan 60xti. According to Google, these were inexpensive home theater speakers, now discontinued. They were not panels, but standard 3-way boxes with cone drivers, made in China it would appear. Is that correct?

Why is everyone skipping over this is a dipole 1 foot away from the wall behind them? I dont care how long you burn them in, what treatment you use, the cables, the preamp- NOTHING will fix that "dipole close to the wall behind them" problem.

If the dealer told you this would work, definitely return them and say it was terrible advice. Don’t shop there anymore if they really said that. If you wanted it and they said nothing because you were determined, I’d give them the benefit they didnt understand your room conditions. But if you explained this room in detail and they understood you were seting them up 1 foot away from a wall behind them, they shoudl never be trusted again. If they try to sell you something else to "fix" it, just run the other direction. This problem is super simple audio 101. Dipoles are advanced math products that require a good understanding of acoustics to properly set up. Otherwise you need pure luck or a deaf client.

To test what I am saying, try a little demo of your own. Divide your room in thirds wall to wall. Pull the speakers out to the first (third) point, dont change the distance to the side walls from where they are now. Then put a listening chair at the next third point. Now the room is divided into three, the speakers and the listening position split the room into three parts.   NOW listen- completely different right? This is how you know for sure its the room and speaker position. If the room is also highly reflective (hard surfaces everywhere, no absorption), it will make the problem worse and changing the speaker position will have have less of benefit. Dipoles in highly reflective rooms is acoustically a no no unless you have a acoustic consultant figuring it out and building the room specific to a dipole.  Dipoles can sound good in large rooms that are not highly eflective.

IMO the room is the red flag.

wait 200 hours, then decide on room treatment.

the lack of symmetry may create other problems but you must know that and that’s off topic anyway.

I had similar troubles and even switching speakers did not completely ameliorate the problem. It turned out that I have a difficult room and was able to get beautiful smooth sound by addressing that. A good test was to buy some cheap gobos (portable sound absorption panels on stands) and use them to block the first reflection points (use a mirror to find those). Also I did some near field listening. That made the harshness go away, so I could tell it was the room. We now have a lovely display of strategically placed pillows. Also found that, with the listening couch against the back wall, reflections off that wall were harmful. Pillows again. 

All speakers in the world sound distorted and bright, except Wavetouch audio Antero speaker.

Compare Antero sound vs. Magico A-1, Focal Sopra No. 1, TAD Me1 below

Antero

https://youtu.be/LlYlIvmmg3c?si=EB_m8Mi5PRDD2vcJ&t=152

Magico - in video, Jay’s voice is perfectly natural. So, this is honest A1 sound.

https://youtu.be/iLQMNJi8JAs?si=7V-pIRiieDqu1_1B

Focal - People’s voice sound great in recording. So, this is real Sopra sound.

https://www.youtube.com/live/Msaq4kCYclw?si=lJMZFA1mufR9DUxM&t=830

TAD - Accuphase + DCS. (expensive!)

https://youtu.be/aAWLLMladgM?si=VMZwsUfb4R99zRCR

Alex/Wavetouch audio

It all about matching the preamp and power amp to the speakers. You're not going to go out and buy a Krell amp for them speakers, yikes too bright. You can try different interconnects to change the sound as well, you know to soften up the sound and make it more musical. Try different things and if everything fails, take them speakers back for a refund.

Following the thread I understand you have no carpet no furnishings nothing to dampen the brightness of the speakers. The room is as important as the system.

If you put furnishings in the room it's going to affect the sound just as putting carpet on the floor or putting up damping material on the wall. Not very many systems are going to sound good in a bare room. Speakers also need to be broken in as stated by other people on the forum.

I felt the same with the Klipsch RP 600M.  Sold them to someone else.

One possibility. If these new speakers are 2-3db higher in sensitivity you may be playing them louder than the Kefs not realizing you need to lower the volume. Louder than normal levels can make mids and vocals a bit sharp or harsh.

Happened to me once. Upgraded speakers. Was testing them out on familiar music, but not remembering that I should have reduced the volume about 35% due to 3db increase in sensitivity. Once I realized this and lowered the volume I was very pleased with the sound which had sounded occasionally bright or sharp when I had the volume too high. 

You need to treat your room. Absorbers for high frequency 

preferrably behind them.  Will help a ton

good luck

I purchased a pair of Zu Soul Supremes and had the same issue. I waited for break in and went past the return date. I never got over the fatigue and ended up selling them. Was able to listen to Audio Note e/lx and problem solved. I don’t blame Zu, since I know they make a good product. I think I have sensitive ears is all. Don’t make the same mistake I did and hope they work out. Try to break in and if they don’t get significantly better, return. No shame. 

I would think it's primarily between your ear and the speakers. If they sound too bright, your ears are telling you what you may not want to hear, no pun intended. I would not tweak anything, but return the speakers. 

Or you can buy and EQ, quickest and cheapest trick.

You mentioned that your room is 30' x 30'.  How high are your ceilings?  That is a large volume of space.  I think you might find that this has as much-or more-to do with the loudspeaker's interaction with the room, than it does with the loudspeaker itself.  A square room is going to have more pronounced standing wave issues at certain frequencies where they double up, due to the even dimensions.  Go to https://realtraps.com/modecalc.htm and download the ModeCalc and plug your dimensions in and see what you get.  It displays the first 16 axial modes up to 500Hz.  With your dimensions you will see what you are up against and can start making better decisions about what you will want to own. 

@bigtwin that web site you shared is intriguing. I have a very challenging listening room - 15’ wide, 24.5’ deep, 6.67’ high (yeah, low ceiling) with a couple of support poles and ceiling beams across the width. And, there is a corner angled in the back. Ignoring the poles and beams, the app suggests cutting the back of my room to about 20.15’, which eliminates the angled corner, nominally giving me a "black zone" set of dimensions!

It’s interesting enough that I am ordering a ceiling rail and thick curtains to see what happens. Thanks for the tip.

BTW Two side-by-side systems:

Eversolo A6 to PrimaLuna EVO 300 Integrated to Klipsch Heresy pair

Roon Nucleus One to McIntosh C53 (DA2 DAC) to MC312 to B&W702S3 pair with REL t/7x pair

Doesn't @larry5729 kinda have a point though? 

@larry5729 if you don't have any constructive suggestions then keep them to yourself.  We are not here to berate the guy.

I had the ML 15i and didn't find it bright but I tend to favor speakers some find brighter for whatever reason.   Had Focals if that tells you something and have a variety of others that most would not call dark or warm.

Although they were very articulate and voices semed natural with good control of sibilance and very suitable for movies, they couldn't convey space/spatial effects well in soundtracks and sounded a bit unnatural and perhaps fatiguing with music particularly instruments for me. 

I blamed this not on the tweeter but the Alum woofer that for some reason I do not seem to like.  I tried alot of speakers with Alum drivers, some better for my tastes than others but all sold or returned, regardless of the great discounts I received.

I would say if they are bothering you, either you can sell them or if returnable, then do so.  Some well liked speakers by most do not work for all. 

As for myself, I seem to like paper/treated and/or polypropylene woofers better regardless if the tweeter it soft/metal/AMT, etc.  Metal infused drivers seem to much in certain ways for me.  Even if it is made to sound refined, it still seems off for me.  Exciting yes, overall listenable...not so much, but that's me.

Swap in  a pair or 2 of Jps Labs Super Conductor series 1 interconnects

Will tame them down,

Dont overspend on this If you do not like them return them

Im gonna take a guess and say the problem in this room is they are a dipole sending tons of energy (50% of its total output) on the wall behind the speakers. This energy is reflected back into the listening space with a delay that is created by the distance from the speaker to the wall behind them and then back again. This delayed HF is being added back to the non delayed main output from the front of the speaker all of it summed together at your ear. This is the same issue when we talk about first reflections: the same sound taking two different length paths to your ear is a sure way to mess up any speaker. Usually the top end is the most offensive as we are very senstive to this information. I bet if we measured phase in the room it would be severely messed up by this major reflection.

Dipoles are wonderful but very challenging -you need large spaces to make them sing. Id say this room is not right for a dipole. Nearly impossible to fix in too small a space sorry to say!

Brad

What did you have before the Lintons?

I really liked my Lintons. I'd like to hear the new Super Lintons.

Try Kimber Kable 8tc.Will add warmth to your sound.

@mvanwoert

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

When I looked up the OP's speakers, they are conventional box speakers with dynamic drivers (magnets, coils and cones) plus an unconventional tweeter!  A far cry from the MLs of old ...

Yeah, if they dont work out, will probably try Lintons next.  For now, I'm going to give it 30 days and make a decision at that point. I have 60 days to return them.

You said your KEF were too analytical/metallic. The KEF concentric driver is not metallic sounding, just the opposite. It's extended but not harsh at all. So, will will never like the ML ribbons. Send them back and get something more mellow. 

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

You have some very good equipment that outclasses your speaker cables IMHO.  I’ll reiterate my earlier recommendation for these Acoustic Zen shotgun bi-wire cables that at $350 are an absolute steal and should be a big improvement.  I sold a pair of them to someone I think was using Mogami or Canare and was floored by the improvement, and these are so cheap if they don’t work out you could turn around and sell them likely for a profit.  Just do it!

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650194860-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-biwired-speaker-cables/

np... and as you learn stuff, please post any insights or new questions, for the next person who may run into a similar problem.

It's all part of what makes this hobby fun...   (or extremely aggravating )

@rwalsh07 

Speakers being out of phase was brought up earlier.  I think the emphasis was on individual drivers within one or both of the speakers being wired out of phase.

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but it is a 10 second test.  On ONE of the speakers ONLY, I would connect the red (positive) speaker wire to the black (negative) speaker terminal and the black (negative) speaker wire to the red (positive) speaker terminal.  Just to see if it helps in case one of the whole speakers was wired out of phase.

Regarding Blue Jeans speaker wire, they predominately use Belden and Canare speaker wire.  I have both.  The Canare 4s11 is considered very good by many.  I did not like the Belden quite as much but many like and use it without problem.

Thank you Jeff

@rwalsh07  -  You are correct in not going down the rabbit hole right off the bat.  The key is to not start changing too many variables all at once.  Otherwise you will be chasing your tail and throwing away money. Give the speakers time to break in.  Play with the speaker placement, even if the location/toe/etc. is temporary, just to see how they respond.  (i.e. maybe move them further out from the wall or further apart, or closer together, you get the idea.)  Maybe some makeshift acoustic treatments on the wall(s).  And as you said, let your ear adjust from the KEFs and get used to different sound.  

Once you have done that and have a better feel for the MLs, then decide if they are going to work for you.  At that point, then you can worry about new speaker cables, or different electronics if you need to.

... just a nickel's worth of advice...

- Jeff.

I adjusted settings in my streamer last.  I had it set to up sampling on various khz rates.  I changed them to native band it warmed the speakers up a bit.  I also played with the position a bit and adjusted my REL subwoofer.  It seems to have helped. I'm going to give them a bit to break in as well. 

I did also order some jumpers to give rid of the factory provided metal jumpers.

Is it worth changing out my Blue Jean speaker cables?  I feel like some of these expensive cables are over hyped.  If its suggested not to keep the Blue Jean cables, what relatively inexpensive cables would you guys suggest.  

The speakers actually sound pretty darn good, perhaps my ear is just adjusting to them from the previous KEFs.

And you right, bright is probably the incorrect term, definitely harsh in the midrange and upper high frequencies though.  There's no way I could have long periods of elevated volume, at least as of right now. 

I also would hate to start selling equipment and start going down that rabbit hole again.  Its out of my budget.  I'm a blue collar worker.lol.  Champagne test on a beer budget.

I welcome and appreciate further inputs.  

So you are getting a lot of advice that your speakers shouldn't be too bright.  I have a couple of thought.

1.  I have seen silver or silver plated speaker cables make the sound bright.

2.  You should confirm all the bass drivers are working.  play music with bass in it and gently touch each cone to confirm is it vibrating/moving on the bass note.

Jerry

I spent a year with a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40's... the model below the 60's. I purchased them used so they were fully broken-in. Bright is not a word I would use to describe them. Sweet and airy is how I would describe the Folded Motion Tweeter. I sold them and still regret letting them go.

In my opinion they need more time. The manual with my 40's said to break-in @ 92dB for many hours if not days... I forget exactly the time specified. Personally I would not play them that loud but a longer break-in could be the key. As someone else mentioned, play them constantly at normal levels for a week or two or three. Or until the return window is near. Many days of playing time also made a huge difference in a pair of speakers I got with aluminum dome tweeters. And check for any issues upstream.

I have played with ML speakers for decades and a few things to keep in mind are: 1) They are line sources that radiate in both directions and 2) they are a capacitive load not a resistive load.  

Others have mentioned room treatment.  Because they are line sources, floor, ceiling and side walls are not a big problem, but the back wall needs to be treated.  I think only having 1 ft behind the speakers is a big part of your issue.  Mine are 6ft from the wall and I have a combination of absorption and diffusion to tame the back wall reflection.  GIK was helpful in developing room treatments. I’d reach out to them.

The other thing that I have found is that most solid state amps are designed to drive resistive loads.  I have tried many high end amps, but always found the best results with a high power tube amp and a solid state pre.  A few years back I demo’d and then eventually purchased a SANDERS amp to drive the speakers.  It is specifically designed to drive ESL capacitive loads.  I then paired it with a tube pre.  

Speakers are only one part of a good system.  The room and amplification also need to matched to the job.  They are tricky speakers to drive and to set up but they are sublime once you do.  I also have large woofer towers to provide the bottom end.  

The sound of speakers varies greatly during the course of break in. I try not listen to them during break in because inevitably they will sound awful at some point. I then think I have terrible speakers, when after they are broken in, they sound great. Try not to pass judgment too early.

@rwalsh07 Try one or more Akiko Audio tuning sticks on your Lumin, DAC, and/or preamp. In my system they definitely tame the higher frequencies.

Just make sure your positive outputs from the amplifiers is connected to the positive inputs of the speakers and same with the negative side. Also get rid of the jumper straps.