Sound quality differences in streamers

I just went through the journey of demoing new streamers.  Your question is a good one and though the answer is counter intuitive, yes there are very discernable differences.  Even with the same streamer, different digital outputs will sound audibly different.  USB will likely sound different than SPDIF out of the same streamer into the same DAC.  Demo, borrow and listen to everything you can get in your room.  Take your time and find the piece that suits your tastes.  Good luck and cheers.  

While there are a few naysayers here who think streamers can’t sound different just like there are naysayers here who say cables don’t make a difference, the vast, vast majority here find significant improvements as they move up to better and usually more expensive streamers.  Suffice it to say it’s well worth your while to at least demo a better streamer and use your own ears to decide.  

Ah the old computer phrase “ It’s only X’s and O’s. The power supply makes a difference, the clock makes a huge difference, and there’s noise rejection. Even cables make a difference. I have a nice resolving Mid Fi setup and I can tell a huge difference. Being hardwired Vs Wi Fi makes a difference too. You can gain a little here and a little there , and it adds up to a big difference. If you get a streamer with a wall wart, a LPS is another improvement. I went from a laptop to a Project Stream Box Ultra II to an Innuos Pulse Mini with a LPS and I’m at the LOW end of streamer category. Happy Hunting , Mike B. 

I guess I will be the party pooper. You're using it as a streamer, so the heavy lifting is done by your standalone DAC @kckrs 

All you need is a streamer with a user friendly software system if it has one and one with good processing power is all and thankfully you can get one for pretty reasonable money and then connect you your DAC via any of the digital inputs and you're good to go.

Overthinking it and using anecdotes of people here and trusting it (including me) iṣan exercise in spiralling.

So yes connect the Wiim Ultra which has the best processing power of the Wiims and USB input on your DAC and you're all good

A Aurender music server paired with a solid DAC via USB audio, This IMHO is a solid high end setup, and it dosent cost any where near a DCS. a nice Aurender will be around $2500 new and a DAC would be around $1500 or so. Thats not bad for a very good sounding digital front end using Tidal or Qobuz.

And once hearing this ,you would never go back to anything inferior, its digital magic.

Matt M

There is a dCS streamer for $3K?  Wow

The best sounding streamer that I ever had was the Bryston BDP3 which had a terrible user experience.  For a few hundred less a Melco N100 sounded very close.

Then for around a third of the price of a Melco Cambridge Audio got me about 95% of the sound.  Currently using a Wiim Pro for $100 while rehabbing in my basement post knee surgery.  It’s maybe 90% sq of the CA.

  Worst streamer I ever heard also cost $100.

  So my take is budget streamers into a good FAC can get you most of the way to audio heaven.  Throwing more money will usually make it better but the asymptote kicks in a lot faster than say for speakers or turntables 

If the unit is just transferring zeros and ones to a DAC can there be differences in say a $300 WiiM and a $3000 dSC streamer?

And there is the ignorance, it is not just transferring "1’s and 0’s".

Doesn’t common sense tell the ones who have heard this nonsense that streaming music is no different than sending a word document there must be something else happening? That maybe those of us who have spent many thousands on streamers did it because the music actually sounded better? If there was no difference between a multi-thousand dollar streamer and a $300 Wiim how is it possible all these streamer manufacturers would stay in business longer than a few months? Because we are all fooled? We have nothing better to do with the money? Audiophile's like to pay thousands for a fancy case? Only a fool would believe that. 

Hans can explain it as well as anyone: Watch some of his videos: That is not "proove it" but explain why digital sound is complicated, this first one is not about streamers but filters, and the second explaining that digital is not simply "1’s and 0’s". 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSsKdAcwUL4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-StTplQZys

More importantly prove it to yourself: go to a dealer and ask them to proove to you that expensive streamers sound better. Honestly I don’t know why people keep asking this question about streamers being the same or not over and over.

Words are cheap, and useless- the proof is in the listening- go listen. 

Assuming all things being equal, yes, significant differences. Most good quality streamers do not have a DAC. They are simply stand alone. If you have a good DAC you don't want to buy one with the DAC function. You want all the effort and cost to have gone into only the streamer function. 

Also, lots of memory to store ripped files is becoming less prevalent as streaming can sound just as good as stored files or CDs, so there is no use for storage. 

But it depends on the rest of your equipment. My rule of thumb is that if you purchase best in class and synergistic components then investment levels typically look something like this. 20% speakers, 15% amp, 15% preamp, 15% DAC, and 15% streamer. Or better 25% speakers with the rest split equally among the components. 

The point of the above is that each component is equally contributing. 

This is because careful and thoughtful design and top notch subcomponents get you insulation from electrical noise, and vibration, and stable power...etc. from the start to the finish. 

I have owned DACs and Streamer from a few dollars to over $20K. The differences are obvious at every level. 

In my experience, which is primarily related to using Roon, the answer to your question requires separating the server from the streamer since they perform two separate functions.  In the case of using Roon, the server runs Roon server, or Roon Core, which manages music files, streaming services, and the audio devices on your network.  The streamer operates as a Roon endpoint, which clocks, processes, and transports the digital signal to a DAC where it is converted into an analog signal.  In some cases, the server and streamer exist in a single chassis, like with the Antipodes K50, the Grimm MU1, and others.

I have not heard noticeable sonic differences in the servers that I have owned.  However, I have heard meaningful sonic differences in streamers, with the best sounding streamer I have owned being the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe, which is currently in my main system.  If I didn't already have the Sonore streamer, the other one I would try is the Innuos Pulsar.

Streamers vary greatly in the amount of noise generated from within, noise is the enemy of resolution/transparency. In researching and comparing streamers you'll find much difference in the lengths some makers go to lesson noise. Every single component on motherboard can contribute to a lower noise floor. Proprietary operating systems and linear power supplies also contribute greatly to lower noise floors. Streamers set the resolution/transparency floor for the entire streaming chain, extremely important component, perhaps the most important component in the entire chain.

I heard a significant increase in clarity when I switched from a Roon Nucleus to a Grimm MU-1.  I thought the upgrade was well worth it.  So yes, there is a difference.

First of all, it’s dCS, not dSC, and to my knowledge, their least expensive model starts at around $22,000.

Personally, I don’t own (but have auditioned) any streamer over $1,000. That said, I believe you can clearly hear the difference between a Wiim and a truly high-end streamer—at least in terms of pricing. This belief comes from the ability to easily distinguish differences among sub-$1,000 streamer/DAC units out of my humble system. The real question is: where does the point of diminishing returns begin?

Price doesn’t play the music. For example, my $399 Cambridge Audio MXN100 sounds noticeably better than (1) the $330 Wiim Ultra (with Smsl ddc), (2) the $399 iFi ZS, and even significantly better than the $850 Eversolo A6. All were tested using their internal streaming sections, the same external DAC, and low-noise power supplies. The sonic differences are apparent and, in my opinion, may mostly come down to two specs, including (1) jitter noise and (2) electrical noise, that one needs to watch over in selecting the gear.

Finally, I encourage you to treat your room acoustics, optimize speaker placement, carefully select cables based on specifications (not ad-hoc recommendations), be mindful of system synergy, and train your ears to better reveal those differences.

I have the HiFi Rose RS130 Streamer. The sound quality is amazing. Software can be a bit wonky sometimes. Ive got it connected to a Luxman DX-07 SACD/DAC. It sounds amazing. Super quiet and very enjoyable. Good provisions for storing and ripping CDs other music files. 

As an aside anyone else sick and tired of Audiogon login system? Login/Password recaptcha then 2ndary identification via login code. This isnt classified information WTH is wrong with this forum. 

I will say 100% there is a difference! I have had a few and finally settled on a small green computer/Lumin setup. That is what I liked best. Not saying this is the end all, but I could tell very NON-Suttle differences between streamers. This was what I liked and just stayed with it. I found what I liked and stopped spending anymore on it. 

@lanx0003 

“The real question is: where does the point of diminishing returns begin?”

At what price point? Also, “diminishing returns” is subjectively defined by each owner/listener, for their own system. IOW, not a stationary target.

That said, in my system, the $6,000 Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe (streamer only) provides significantly more engaging results than the $1250 Metrum Acoustics Ambre, $7,500 Antipodes DX Gen 3, or $7,000 Mojo Audio Deja Vu that came before it.  Keep in mind, the Deja Vu and Antipodes DX are server/streamers.  Of those, the Deja Vu came sonically closer than the others to the sound of the Sig. Rendu SE but, even then, the Sig. Rendu SE Deluxe clearly sounds better to me. A good comparison would be against the $8,000 Innuos Pulsar (streamer only).

In the past I would have said no difference, but after trying an N150 upgrade from a bluesound node 2, I realized there is a difference.  Not every room/person/system will reveal the difference, or even prefer the more expensive streamer.  I suggest you try the upgrade to hear for yourself and then decide based on your budget and any audio improvement.  

Go for the Wiim.  Ultra is great using it with an external DAC (MHDT StocKholm ii)

Great insight here on many posts, thanks. Grinnell, I was thinking WiiM going to my MHDT Orchid. But don’t want to sell myself short. Hence the inquiry.

A friend uses the WiiM and I’ve found the software very user friendly which for me is priceless. I will give up sonics for easy to navigate software. 
And of course I enjoy the typical few snarky replies present on every interweb forum. Sorry I left off a zero on the $3000, not $30000 dCS (corrected from dSC) and misspelled model name. And a few others peppered in among the truly helpful replies. Lots to think about —

I will say that almost everything makes a difference to the sound quality. A fine switch like the Melco S100mk2 or a fantastic switch like the Melco S1 should be considered for your audio chain. Then a streamer like a Lindemann Woodnote Solo or Melco N100 server/streamer with linear power supply are audible improvements over a Wiim or Bluesound device.The nice thing about buying an entry level streamer like the Wiim or Bluesound is that you can easily sell them on when you want to move up the food chain.

I, too, see the Sonore Signature Rendu SE Deluxe as a wise investment.

Currently working to hardwire mine very soon.

I’m not going to disagree with any of the above, and I certainly agree that everything can make a difference. I have several rigs, several DACs, several streamers, amps, SS and tube, and way too many pairs of speakers, and with exception of a Cambridge Audio CXN V2, my WiiM mini, WiiM Pro, Bluesound Node 2i, Lumin Mini and audio built PC all run through outboard DACs.  Various Toppings, Denafrips, and Musical Paradise tube output stage DACs.  

I think this is where the law of diminishing returns and room setup comes into play.  In my lower cost, yet resolving systems in terrible room setups due to furniture, room size/shape, where the speakers can’t be ideally set up, I can’t really tell a great deal of difference in the streamer/DAC combos.  So it doesn’t matter, the WiiM mini with a Topping E30 sounds as good as good as any other combo due to room and speaker placement.  In fact swapping out various amps has more of an impact on SQ with same speakers than streamer/DAC.  
 

Now, when it comes to my “main” rig where every component costs thousands more, there is a tall ceiling, equilateral triangle listening position, decent room acoustics, a dead quiet tube amp and highly sensitive horn and French “audiophile” speakers, yes I can tell a difference.  But I also have several other tweaks in this set up, separate power line from box with true earth ground. hospital grade outlets, fiber optic internet router, Ethernet switch, LPS on everything I can, power conditioner, ceramic fuses, a DDC, R2R DAC, better cables, way too many NOS tubes, etc., etc..  So would I put the WiiM Mini in as my streamer? Heck no! 

So, moderately priced system, decent room acoustics, moderately priced streamer/DAC.  High-end system ($100K plus), high-end room set up, and no WAF, definitely high-end streamer/DAC.  OK system in office or bedroom, terrible room set up, inexpensive streamer/DAC ok, you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference.  Like I said, everything matters, up to a point, pocket book dependent.

Before getting there there is lots of noise on the line digital not being grounded 

put a ZPS on your router I use Linear Tube Audio which comes with a great DC cable to the router this makes a nice improvement , Ethernet cables too especially at the end point on your Ethernet hub something of quality with a LPS power supply and good quality clock , then your streamer ,innuos makes a good variety of streamers ,and sense app is very good .everything counts.

1. There are differences between all price points for streamers.  More expensive streamers sound better.  There is the axiom of limiting returns.  The benefit/cost ratio decreases as price increases.  Brand and price point are personal choices because perceived improvements in SQ and benefit/cost ratio are subjective.  
2. Everything in a system matters, including room and attention to set-up detail as well as components.  My perception of a hierarchy of importance, from most important to least important is speakers, front end (DAC/Streamer or turntable/arm/cartridge/phono stage), amplification (amp/preamp), electrical conditioning, cabling, room treatment, vibration control.  Others have different preferences. 
   
   My recommendation is a used Aurender N10 which are selling approximately at you $3000 cap.  Wonderful sounding streamer.  Audition and make your own judgement.  You may find something you like more.  

Very noticeable differences using as a streamer only.  I have a McIntosh C49 Preamp into a McIntosh MA462 so they resolve very well and has a good McIntosh DAC.  Using a Wiim Ultra ($350) to stream only sounds ok/good, is better than Bluetooth and the unit works very, very well, punching way above weight for $.

Next I tried an ELECTROCOMPANIET ECM 1 MKII - High End DAC and Streamer ($6,000)... The DAC is not as good as the McIntosh, but getting close.  As a streamer only, it sounds better than the Wiim, but the user interface and user experience isn't as good as the $350 Wiim, LOL.  But yes, sounds better.  Wiim 85% of way there, Electrocompaniet 93ish% there.

Next I tried an EverSolo DMP A-6 Master Edition ($1,200).  As a streamer only this is the ticket - sounds BETTER than Electrocompaniet 96ish% there - has a good user interface/experience too.  The DAC is ok, not great... not as good as the Electrocompaniet, but better than the Wiim by a lot.

Next I tried an EverSolo DMP A-8 ($1,880).  This is a terrific streamer and DAC.  All around better than the Electrocompaniet in every aspect.  The DAC is nearly as good as McIntosh, but the streamer is outstanding - very detailed and clean.

I'm using the DMP A-8 to stream via its DAC analog into a McIntosh MA-352 integrated for my office.  Super setup for the money.

So, to me, sometimes spending more is not better - The Chinese and Koreans are surpassing streamer tech of Europe in my opinion, especially when considering the money.

I have no trouble believing there are qualitative differences between streamers. My own experience with a Wiim Pro Plus (as streamer only) and a decent quality R-core linear power supply has shown me that the Pro Plus can be seriously improved with the use of such a power supply.

That's the beauty of some of these inexpensive 5V streamers-they can be improved upon pretty substantially with a high quality but low price power supply. The question then becomes at what kind of a price point do the laws of diminishing returns kick in. 

Here's a link to a review suggesting that a Wiim Mini with quality LPS came very close to a $2500 Lumin: 

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/reviews/a-tale-of-two-streamers-r1159/

Not bad!

The Aurender stuff looks extremely well put together to me once you get up into the $2K to $4k range. I'd be curious to hear one of those, but all in all, I am pretty happy with the results I'm getting in the cheap end of the gene pool, and that's compared to a $10K+ (not that I paid that for it) analog front end. 

My analog is definitely better, but with the right mastering/recording the results here represent a very high value for dollar proposition with pretty inexpensive streaming/digital within a relatively good system.

@ghdprentice , @soix 

+1 …. Big-time!
 

Nailed it , …. point, set, and match in tennis jargon. 

In my experience yes a quality streamer makes a difference you can hear.  I upgraded from a Bluesound Node N130 to an Innuos Zen MK3 and it made a difference I could hear immediately.  

There are differences, even at the ultra high end.  Some are a little smoother, some colder.  Software and UI matters.  The only server that does Roon perfectly IMO is Antipodes. I am biased (I am a dealer) but they are the only brand that uses two computers in the same box to split server and renderer duty which matters, even for streaming. This is less of an issue with software that is not Roon.  

streamer discussion

see link above to a prior discussion that touches on same topic.  I am a strong proponent that, putting aside processing differences (e.g., reclocking, up sampling/oversampling, dsp), the only differences across streamers - sonically - is differences in noise, including power supply-related, RFi/EMI, and jitter (and the science is really clear on this, btw).  Some DACs do a much better job than others at eliminating any or certain types of noise from sources (streamers).  But regardless of your DAC, there are a number of relatively inexpensive (less than $2k) streamers that do a great job of minimizing noise.  Bottom line:  there’s a lot of hype out there re streamers in part because this is the leading edge of the industry for a lot of consumers still, so there’s a lot of opportunity for high margin products for producers, and misinformation.  Good luck.

Lumin U2 mini with the Sbooster power supply » Allo Shanti supply on the WiiM Mini

This equal tipping of the scale really surprises me—a lot—given Lumin's reputation and the significant price difference. I previously tried the WiiM Mini (without an LPS) and found its lightweight low-end notes unacceptable. Some people told me a clean power supply would make a significant improvement, but I didn’t pursue it due to the Mini’s limited connectivity options.  The Pro+ and Ultra, which I tried later, performed much better in that regard, so I’ve kept them since.

Later on, I came across at least two not-so-impressive tests of the Lumin U2 Mini. One of them is this.  I don’t wish to jump to any conclusions about the performance of this particular Lumin model, but I suppose there’s a valuable lesson to be learned.

@verdantaudio I too have found Roon best with core and endpoint/renderer segregated, in my case two streamers run in bridged mode.

@paqua123 

About logging in. I have a desktop, laptop and three iPads. I use Audiogon daily. I end up logging on to one of the devices maybe once a month while using them all constantly. Sounds like you are doing something that makes it difficult. Are you closing down your browser completely between uses?

@verdantaudio - As with @sns, I too prefer the Roon server operating core to be separate from the endpoint/renderer.  My first server/streamer (after moving away from my customized Mac mini) was the Antipodes DX a one-box server/streamer, similar to the current K50.  Based on my successful time with the DX, I am sure the K50 is a great sounding unit.  However, I have found that separating the server and streamer offers potential benefits that work well for me, including,

• Locate the server in a separate room near the network equipment and not in the main music system room,
• separate potentially noiser, higher powered processing duties performed by the server from the final processing/reclocking duties performed by the Roon endpoint unit,  
• position the streamer/endpoint in the main system room so the cable from endpoint to DAC can be short,
• separate units allow allocating a greater proportion of the available funding into the steamer/endpoint, which some believe has a greater impact on the sound than the unit performing the file storage/server/Roon core duties,
• separate units make it easier to maintain and upgrade one or the other, without needing to upgrade a more expensive combination server/streamer.  

Of course, there is more than one way to get good sound and many prefer to simply purchase a single, high-performing, one-box solution like the Antipodes DX or Oladra, Grimm MU1 or MU2, Aeon 432 EVO, or similar.

@mitch2 i agree wholeheartedly.  The only caveat I would make is that the K50 and Oladra may be one box but they each have two computers and a clock in them. That is, a high powered server, a separate mid powered endpoint and then a clock. Two separate computers/motherboards with discrete power supplies.  The only thing that is common is the power cord and the chassis.  The others mentioned are one box solutions with one computer. 

verdantaudio,

I'm not a dealer, just an end-user. I've owned several Antipodes Audio music servers. I've compared Antipodes to other music servers and have preferred Antipodes to Aurender, Innuos, and several others. I have the Oladra now and it's my last music server. 

@ricred1    I love the Oladra.  I personally run the Oladra at home as well and have for several years.  I have no interest in replacing it.  This unit will not be my last. I turn my samples over and I will buy another Oladra. 

A server for $29k.  Forgive me, but that’s just dumb.  Really dumb.  Like insanely dumb.

@verdantaudio Did you ever get the things you needed to get fibre optic to work on the Linn DAC you had? I provided you some links on Amazon and maybe Sonore for the required components.

BTW - I think I got the PlayBack Design STREAM-IF streamer from you. I only heard it on SPDIF, but that thing was as good as the Lumin X1 and Sonore OpticalRendu running on fibre (very surprising). I never heard the fibre based Plink on that streamer since I decided not to get a PBD DAC. I sold the STREAM-IF.

@mdalton 

If I recall correctly, we’ve been down this path with you before. You post an incredibly rude comment and then pretend to apologize for it in the guise of being “helpful”.

Additionally - if I recall correctly - you’re a vinyl person with no actual direct experience with better streamers. You are voicing an opinion based on what you believe to be true, and/or what cannot possibly be true.

I understand and respect differing opinions about the merits of particular gear and different budget priorities. Share away and I will hope to learn something from you. 

However, throwing out insulting comments based on an ill-informed opinions doesn’t do anything to advance our community - or bring any joy (the reason we listen to music). It just creates angst in this community. An opinion is ill-informed when it is based on a lack of experience, and/or lacks an adequate technical basis of support.

Interestingly, the possibility exists for you to be correct. But as you’ve only an opinion based on belief - not direct, thoughtful experience - that value is completely lost. Only the harm remains. Equally sad is that you have rejected the possibility that you could be mistaken. Your dogma is preventing you from the exploration of “how, why, and what if”. 

If you have any curiosity, you might go to the Positive Feedback site and look for a review of the Switch X. I can’t seem to post the link here. The reviewer has the technical knowledge to understand and explain why it makes a difference and the discussion is also highly related to why streamers sound different, too.

And if you’re not curious - fair enough. But perhaps you’d be kind enough to dial it down on digital discussions. 

Peace.

The Dejitter Switch X addresses an issue most are unaware of. Having a 'clean' network is required to get the most out of one's streamer/streaming setup, this means starting at modem. I discovered the benefits of having an audio only or 'clean' network and a 'dirty' network' for the house a couple years ago.

mdalton,

Value is determined by the individual. One can argue that spending X amount for any component is dumb. I say, spend whatever you can easily afford to yield the sound you want!

@sns @mgrif104 - I read the Positive Feedback review of the Dejitter Switch X (link) and it sounds interesting enough that I will look into it further.  I like the idea of a separate network path for audio but with three audio zones at my residence, and all three having their own Roon endpoint, I need to understand how that would work.  My main system endpoint/streamer is hardwired (fiber) but of course the iPad I use to control Roon is running off of the network wi-fi.  I will try and learn more about the Switch X.

@mdalton - Consider the price issue all relative.  Paying $100-200K for a vehicle may seem dumb when $50 is more than enough to buy one that will reliably move you from points A to B.  However, some people can afford paying more and value the extra features/performance that a higher priced vehicle can provide.  Same with audio.  I recently purchased a more expensive DAC than I had owned before and found noticable improvements in sonic performance over the others I previously owned.  I do somewhat understand your point about servers since they are basically a computer and tend to be upgraded to newer models frequently, but some people want the best and the Oladra is arguably in the running (for being the best at this time).

A server for $29k.  Forgive me, but that’s just dumb.  Really dumb.  Like insanely dumb.

I'm not sure if the word 'dumb' is being used to describe the buying decision, the behavior, or the individual who made that decision. Here's how I see it: I'm frugal, and I tend to be cautious with my spending—even when I could afford something luxurious. But I've come to respect those who have the disposable income to buy truly luxurious things, even if those purchases sometimes irritate me or others, including people like you. They're not dumb. If they were, how could they have accumulated the wealth to afford things that we can't? 

So here’s why, IMHO, it’s “dumb” to pay $29k for the Antipodes:  Like other high-cost server/streamers, Antipodes talks about its superior isolation and noise reduction.  The reason for this is because there is no other credible claim they can make, because servers and streamers do not have a sound of their own.  They simply differ as to generation/removal of noise.  Do I think they are lying about their “galvanic isolation” or their “ultra stable clock”?  Nope.  But what do the data tell us about the results?  That you can buy a cheap server and separate streamer and get the same noise reduction.

Paul Miller at HiFi News is one of the only people that I’m aware of that runs consistent tests on streamers.  What he does is run jitter tests on the output from a dac connected to a streamer, and compare that to the same dac connected to a noisy computer.  He also compares the s/n ratios of the output (though they don’t publish as much of this data as the jitter data).  So here are the results for the Oladra (Oladra jitter/PC jitter, measured in psec):

Audioquest Dragonfly - 120/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi Neo iDSD - 10/550 (snr - 110/110)

Mytek Brooklyn - 8/10(snr - n/a)

So are these good results? Absolutely!  Jitter is vanishingly low, and obviously dominated by the performance of the dac.  Same goes for s/n ratio.  But how does this compare to a well-engineered but significantly less expensive streamer?  Here are the results for the Volumio Rivo, which was about £1k when it was tested:

Audioquest Dragonfly - 135/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi - 18/550 (snr - n/a)

Mytek - 8/10 (snr - n/a)

These results are virtually identical, and state of the art.  Miller even tested the Volumio with the dcs Vivaldi Apex, and it added no noise. Are there some other potential sources of noise not captured by these measures?  Maybe RFi/EMI, but there are very reasonably priced options available to handle that if that’s an issue in your system (e.g., going optical with one of the Sonore products).  

So that’s why I have this history of arguing against expensive server/streamer combos.  I mean if you want to own a luxury product for bragging rights, that’s cool I guess.  But where I object is when people get convinced by dealers and others that they have to own that luxury product to get optimal performance.  

Interesting. I have never purchased a single piece of audio gear after having looked at the specs (other than making sure a power amp has enough for the task). And, I’ve never rejected a piece of gear based on specs. I listen. And I purchase if it makes a noticeable difference and I reject if it does not. I’ve rejected far more than I’ve purchased including some rather expensive digital accessories and cables, etc. 

Reading through your post, it appears you’ve actually never listened to any of this gear. There is certainly plenty of eye candy in our hobby and I’m sure there is plenty of gear that does not perform to its promise or price. Indeed, I’ve heard some of it. But not only are you dismissive of those consumers who are looking to improve their digital chain, you are accusing every manufacturer who markets such gear as predatory, even though most of them have invested years and millions in capital pursuing better performance. Perhaps they understand something you do not. Perhaps they aren’t just following the money. Perhaps they remain curious as to “what if” and “why”. I, like many others, am grateful that there are those crazy innovators who explore, tinker and learn new things to improve understanding which then fosters new approaches. And I, like many others, are enjoying the fruits of those labors.

Keep reading your spec sheets. I’ll listen first, then read up and try to understand what I heard (or didn’t.). 

I’m fully on board with your analysis from a purely specifications-based standpoint. But the subject touches on something deeply human when it comes to consumer behavior around luxury items. Let me try my best to summarize it:

1. Aesthetics - using your example.  I could imagine / visualize the Antipodes Oladra might look nicer, slickier

2. Perceived quality / Justification biases - better design component, craftmanship, durability / reliability

3. Emotional value - Luxury items make them feel 'exclusive' and exciting to own

4. Social proof, symbol of taste and wealth.

Look, as I mentioned before, money is something we’re not born with, and something we can’t take with us to the grave. If one has it, spend it as one pleases — if one feels like it or is willing to.  It’s not really our business, although I do sometimes sincerely urge them to share their wealth with those who need it.

With respect to my streamer bona fides, I was an early mover to streaming 20+ years ago, well before I got back into vinyl (which was probably about 15 years ago now).  And with respect to listening to streamers, I’ve had 10(ish) different models of streamers over the years.  It is true that I’ve never purchased an uber-expensive streamer - putting aside the original Yamaha Musicast server/streamer, which was quite pricey for the time, as I recall - but that would be weird, given my views.  Having said that, I have listened to quite expensive streamers at dealers and at friends’ houses, including A/B comparisons to try to understand what we’re hearing.  Most recently I heard a subtle difference in a Wilson Sasha system where streaming was first thru the Simaudio 891 ($25k), and then where streaming to the 891 dac was handled by an Innuos Pulsar.  I thought I heard a subtle improvement in the latter case.  Why?  Well this particular dealer is quite good, and to his credit acknowledged it’s simply about noise.  You see, as great a company as Simaudio is, they still manufacture to a price point.  And including a convenience feature like an on-board streamer with their preamp/dac means they clearly have to make some compromises, and have probably decided not to invest even more to get that last nth degree of noise reduction.  Antipodes has a greater technical challenge because they decided to combine the server with the streamer, and that presents a more significant noise issue than just the streamer.  So in order to get state of the art noise performance in that use case, they charge $29k.  
 

Again, I’m not saying that the Antipodes doesn’t sound great, I simply object to the claim thst you need to spend that amount to get that level of performance.  You don’t.  In addition, I’m not averse to folks spending alot on their systems - I mean I spent $8k on a cartridge for god’s sake!  I’m also contemplating a pretty serious outlay ($50k or more perhaps) when I purchase my “end of days” speakers.  I guess my one dogma though is that crazy audiophiles like me should be advertent with respect to our purchase decisions, not delusional.  If you acknowledge you bought something for its looks and exclusivity, that’s fine.  Just don’t try to convince yourself , and others more importantly, that you had to spend that amount for performance.  To wit, my Koetsu was an emotional purchase - it was hand painted with Urushi lacquer and Koetsus were originally voiced by Sugano on his personally modified Garrard 401.  I mean, of course I had to have it, lol!

mdalton,

Again, value is determined by every individual. If you don't think you need to spend  "x" amount for a streamer/server, it's pretty simple...don't. I never said, that you or anyone had to spend a certain amount of money to get to a certain level of performance, so I hope your not directing your comments to me. I simply don't believe in judging people for how they spend "their own money".