Somehow I am thinking the lower the voltage and amperage, ie. 5 volts 3 amps required to run a dedicated streamer, the easier it is for the vendor to manage an extremely low noise floor. In addition, you add in the requirement of an external power supply, and you shift some of the issue to the consumer. So, maybe the convenience of integrated components, ie. streamer, dac, screen, server, etc..., which require more power, provide additional challenges for the noise floor, and the vendor has to increase the complexity of the design and the cost.
Sound quality differences in streamers
Can there be sonic differences between moderate and high priced streamers when used for streaming only. I will not use or engage an onboard DAC or any other feature, just stream from Tidal or Amazon to DAC. If the unit is just transferring zeros and ones to a DAC can there be differences in say a $300 WiiM and a $3000 dSC streamer? Thanks
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I was somewhat surprised on how good my Bluesound Node 2i sounded with a SmoothLAN filter running the Node into my uDDC and utilizing I2s into Denafrips Terminator 2. It doesn’t sound up to my Innuos Zen MK 3 level In the same setup, but the Bluesound held its own pretty well. This setup let the Bluesound perform at its best capacity and very listenable. It’s always interesting to me to test the capacity level of more economically priced gear with much higher level gear supporting it. |
@hjdca thanks. Since I’m using the original eero I might not get any improvement with 6+ but will probably still get it for even better coverage. As to streaming…yep sold my analog setup. Went thru few streamer/dac combos and arrived at a streaming solution that eliminated the need to spin physical media be it vinyl or CDs. |
@audphile1 Thanks so much. Regarding the erro 6+, all I can tell you is that it was a huge improvement with wifi from the standard DSL wifi. I was only getting 2.5 ghz wifi at the Rivo+ location and installing the eero 6+ node behind the Rivo+ made the wifi fantastic. With the eero 6+ node, it was easy to go to ethernet, and I wanted to turnoff the wifi circuitry in the Rivo+, so, I went to hardwired ethernet into the eero 6+ node plus linear power supply and response is also instantaneous. Note: I started out as a pure analog guy. I have been slowly upgrading my Digital front ends with DAC, SACD/CD, wav files, dsf files, and now the Rivo+ and ethernet, filters, linear power supply, etc... I am a total digital / Streamer guy now, and I am super impressed with Qobuz hi-res streaming and the Rivo+ with all the garnish. 5 years ago, I would not have believed the sound quality that can be achieved with hi-res streaming from an online streaming service. |
Short answer is it depends. If your downstream components are of very high quality, your room acoustics are dialed in and you have revealing speakers + trained ear, you will easily hear the difference. It also depends what streamers you are comparing. If you use MSB Reference DAC and compare WiiM to Taiko Extreme you will hear the difference. You will hear the difference even if you compare WiiM to a bottom of the line Lumin or Aurender. So without any specifics it’s Impossible to tell whether or not you need a higher end streamer. @hjdca nice system! |
Note: Besides the Stack Audio Smooth Lan, the AudioQuest Cinnamon Ethernet cable, & the linear power supply to the eero6+ node by the stereo, I did this ethernet to fiber optic to ethernet to eero6+ anchor node to help clean up my AT&T DSL - which is all copper. I cannot tell you if it made a difference in sound because I made all my ethernet changes all at once. One thing I did notice is that my TV picture got better, ie Blacks, color, and resolution. My TV is using wifi from the eero6+ anchor node. Overall, I am very happy with the sound quality of the Rivo+, but, I cannot really tell you which changes made a sound quality difference, or if they made a difference from just the Rivo+ with a Linear Power supply. Adding the eero6+ mesh system made a huge improvement in Rivo+ performance overall, so, that was a game changer in itself. |
kckrs, good move. I have been playing with my Rivo+ with linear power supply for a couple of months, and I think your proposed connection method will work great. This is exactly how I setup mine. I started with just the AT&T modem/router without the eero6+ mesh and the wifi connection was weak at 2.5 ghz. Now, with the Mesh system, I get 5 ghz at the Rivo+, but, I also went to the direct ethernet cable to the eero6+ node. I also run a linear power supply to the eero+ node and a Stack audio smoothlan to the Rivo+, but, of course, all that is overkill. I believe you will love the sound of the Rivo+, please let us know... BTW, I think the Volumio software with Qobuz connected on the back end sounds better than the new direct "Qobuz connect". Also, putting your files on microsd card (1TB in my case) is better than a USB stick. I asked Volumio support which storage media would have the best sound on the Rivo+ and they ranked it 1 to 3 in this order - Microsd, SSD, USB stick. Also, I tried multiple monitors with the Rivo+. The only ones that work are 4K monitors. I am running a linear power supply to a 13.5 inch 4K OLED monitor with a remote mouse which has the usb dongle plugged into the USB 2.0 slot on the Rivo+. I could not get "touch" to work. In addition, to your remote devices, ie. iphone, ipad, etc..., this works perfectly to control your Rivo+. I am using the same DAC for the Rivo+ and my CD/SACD player and I can tell you that the sound quality is extremely close. I will have to do some serious A/B testing to grade the differences, ie. ripped dsf file from SACD on Rivo+ microsd vs SACD player, and Qobuz hi-res streaming vs hi-res microsd file on Rivo+. Here are a couple of pics: |
This has been and continues to be a very informative thread. I’m glad I brought the topic to the forum. I may have mentioned but can now confirm I’ve purchased, to be delivered tomorrow, the Rivo+ w/Lineo power supply. With our whole house being T-Mobile WiFi I’ve decided to connect the Rivo to a T-Mobile mesh extender via Ethernet port located just a foot or two away. I’m waiting until the extender arrives on Tuesday for the installation. Hopefully this isn’t money wasted and a reasonably big step up from laptop to DAC. 🤞Thanks |
BTW, I had no wifi Rivo+ issues with the eero 6+ mesh, but, I also had the eero node close to the Rivo+. Personally, I believe in low voltage, low amp streamers with minimum processing, so, in the end, I wanted to turn off the Rivo+ wifi, so, I ran an ethernet cable from the eero6+ node to the Rivo+. Both wired and wifi work well. I have to say, I am super impressed with the sound of the Rivo+, both with streaming Qobuz and playing dsf (ripped SACD files) and wav files - which I put on a 1TB microsd card. Bass is outstanding, sound stage is great, vocals are enticing, and highs are smooth - not glaring. Rivo+ is really a super nice piece of hardware and software. With the Rivo+, You automatically get a free premium subscription to the Volumio software and there is an army of people using it and supporting it. Auto updates of the software are also cool. For example, Qobuz connect support was just released and it was seemlessly installed and works on my Rivo+. I like the business model regarding the Volumio software and the Rivo+ hardware, I believe it to be more "future proof" than other "non-open" streamer software that is operating streamers, but, of course, time will tell. |
I have the Volumio Rivo+ for a couple of months now. It is an outstanding souding unit. Big improvement from my old IPAD air. I use it with a McIntosh system, the DAC is a McIntosh D150. I am using a 5 volt 3.5 amp dual linear power supply - one supplying the Rivo+, the other powering a 4K 13.5 inch monitor. I also have an audio quest power cable and both my DC cables are high end. I am using a mouse for control of the monitor, not touch. I could not get the touch working on my 4K 13.5 inch monitor. For my music, I am using ripped dsf and wav files that I put on a 1 tb microsd card and Qobuz for streaming. For internet, I still am stuck with DSL, so, I setup a eero 6+ mesh system and I have a eero node next to the Rivo+. Wifi worked fine, but, I decided to hardwire an ethernet cable to the eero 6+ node and run the node with an 5 volt linear power supply and use a audioquest cinnimon ethernet cable. i am also using a Stack Audio Smooth Lan from the ethernet cable to the Rivo+. For internet, after the DSL routerh, I am using ethernet to fiber to ethernet adapters before the eero6+ base node. Honestly, sound is really outstanding, and the Volumio user interface is really nice. I use my IPHONE and IPAD to manage the playback. It is easy to switch from streaming to the microsd card and the stored dsf (ripped SACD) sound great. Volumio is now also supporting Qobuz connect and I just tried it and it is also very nice. Of course, If you want to switch between your hard drive and streaming, you need to use the Volumio UI.
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fleschler Sure you can get really good streamer for well under $1,000, that you can use with your Poseidon. Buy a used BlueSound Node 130 (not 2 or 2i) for about $250, and add a used Denafrips Iris DDC for about $350 to $400. The Node 130 only outputs via USB (which you could also send direct to the Poseidon) into the Iris. The Iris does it's magical DDC stuff, and then will allow AES/EBU, optical, RCA, and I2S to the Poseidon (I know the Poseidon does not accept I2S) As long as you want very good, and not state of the art, this combo will work really well; and the Node has a terrific interface. |
@sns - I don’t have any noise issues I am aware of and the fiber to the streamer in my main system probably helps mitigate any noise but your post gave me an idea. Since the two auxillary systems source 99% streaming, and I do not need my stored music files for those systems, I could indeed set up another Roon core on the network for those two systems but, unfortunately, that would require me to purchase another Roon license, which is currently about the only thing I have that is free since I signed up as a lifer early on. Based on all that, I am going to consider the issue not broke, and therefore not in need of fixing. However, thank you for the ideas. |
@devinplombier That is not the Mikrotik model I had, can't recall the model but it had dual internal power supplies, I'd have to look back on ebay past purchases to be sure of model. In any case it was both the internal mods and conversion to allow for external linear power supply that complicated matters to the point I thought of the simpler method of adding a second router for 'dirty' side of network. |
Which mods exactly were you unable to perform in order to make your Mikrotek switch into a Switch X? As an aside, the Mikrotek retails for $270, not $900. https://multilink.us/mikrotik-crs309-1g-8s-in/ Thank you in advance. |
@mitch2 If I understand your setup correctly I don't see how any conventional routers will avoid having wifi 'contaminate' your 'clean' side network. Having the three systems interconnected to the one server is your issue. Depending on the quality of the other systems you could segregate the main system from the others by inserting another separate server for the other two systems. I don't know if Switch X will solve your issue if continuing to serve three systems from one server. A 'clean' side network cannot have any wifi interference at any point in the chain. The Switch X goes a step further and stops the constant network activity of pinging, as they mention in reviews and conversation, watch your network LED's on routers/NAS/switches, constantly flashing, sending and receiving network info/addresses, this is completely stopped with Switch X. I don't believe Switch X will solve your issue via three systems running on one server, but perhaps they would have a solution. One experiment you could try is to shut down the entire whole house and the two other audio system part of network, see if this improves sound quality.
Even with my present network solution, I'm thinking the Switch X would be an improvement via the blocking of network activity. I actually purchased a Mikrotik managed switch a couple years ago with the idea of diy modding the switch exactly how Dejitter did the Switch X, couldn't pull it off. As I recall price of switch was around $900 plus what it would have cost to mod it, internal parts upgrades and external lps, so $3500 for Switch X not that bad. |
Nothing to worry about or disappoint, I didn’t have much of a hope either way : ) @kckrs After all that talk of streamers, equipment, cables and room acoustics is said and done, it all boils down to the one instrument that everything else is gauged by, your own ears. It has and will always be about the music, but being an audiophile is above all else about the journey of listening. Most questions on hifi forums like audiogon are asked by those who haven’t understood how vital it is to learn critical listening skills - the only means to build a truly high performing sound system. Even if you may not have the means to demo every bit of desired equipment in the specific listening space of your system, you will be able to demo what you can afford. This, together with developing your skills to critically listen trumps almost anything you might want to ask on this forum. In friendship - kevin |
Yep, I get it. My streamer journey started with my first post-retirement project, which is when I built a raspberry pi. My “bias” was that I was gonna hear a huge difference between it and my better streamers - everyone (almost) on Audiogon told me I would. But I didn’t. I was shocked at that outcome, so I assumed it must be my ears or my system, right? The truth was way more complicated. I have heard differences between streamers on certain systems, and the quality of my hearing has been pretty frequently complimented by industry professionals. So wtf? There’s not one simple explanation, but it’s stitched together among several of my wordy (sorry everyone) posts on this thread. Most importantly, if you fail to ground your listening experience in some minimal amount of technical understanding of what the moving parts are, then you are highly likely to misdiagnose the cause of what you hear. This is a “first principle”. So we have to understand the technology in order to accurately assess which part of the chain might account for any difference we might hear. How can we trust someone’s diagnosis when they misunderstand which component does what? By way of example, you do not want me assessing that sound coming from your Porsche’s engine. Trust me! Additionally, aural memory really sucks. So you have to do some form of an A/B comparison. (I’m not saying double blinds are necessary, btw.). And good A/B comparisons involve hard work. I for one hate doing them, because for me it squeezes all the joy out of the hobby. So I only do them for very specific objectives (e.g., comparing DACs, testing streamers, final choices on speakers, etc.). But if someone makes assertions about differences in sound without a pretty serious attempt at a relatively rigorous A/B approach, their views are immediately severely discounted by me. In one of my earlier posts here, I gave a list of examples of threads where people were initially sure that their new streamer had made a huge difference, but when the actual specifics were unpacked the truth was obviously very different from what they claimed. That’s about 6 examples in a total of about 10ish threads on the topic I’ve bothered to involve myself in. And on most of the others, the OP was so dedicated to his “truth” that I just didn’t want to be attacked by the streamer jackals for questioning the dude’s experience. Not worth it. In my pre-retirement career, I was very successful precisely because I brought a very high level of analytical objectivity to sometimes deeply divisive topics. My mantra was always “do the work”, and it still is. I don’t take shortcuts, and I try very hard not embed hidden assumptions in my views. And that’s the approach I’ve taken as it relates to the topic of streamers. Long answer (again), to a simple question. Sorry. |
Allow me to play devil’s advocate 🙂 Lots of people claim to hear sound quality differences between streamers: Some are straight-up legit - either they upgraded a budget, value-engineered streamer to a decently built one, or they exchanged a noisy switching power supply for a nice linear regulated one. Then you have the received-dogma / "fashion victim" / confirmation-bias crowd, but we are not going to talk about them because this is a nice thread and a nice forum. Finally, there are bona fide audiophiles who have good ears, good credentials, a solid knowledge of digital audio and an open mind, who are able to quite articulately describe sonic differences between expensive, high-end streamers. I trust these folks. What gives? |
Interesting re Volumio and wifi. While I have no direct experience of that streamer, I do have experience with 4 others using wifi in my house. They are: iFi Zen streamer, Pro-ject S2 Ultra, Okto DAC8 with raspberry pi self-installed, and self-assembled freestanding raspberry pi . I have had zero problems with all of those. I would postulate that quality of your wifi is a much better indication of whether it would work well or not, and there are pretty easy diagnostics you can run to assess that. Good luck. |
Very interesting topic. And I’m sure all will be shocked that I have a different view than @kevn does as it relates to digital v analog. I think perhaps a more apt analogy is as follows: 1) Reading the source - in the analog realm, everything starts with accurate reading of the music as described physically in the grooves. Speed of turntable, tonearm and cartridge setup (e.g., VTA, VTF, etc.) and the stylus itself all contribute to how accurately the grooves are read. In the digital world, putting streamers aside for a moment, the comparable factors for a cd player involve the transport mechanism and the laser. In both examples, this all happens before conversion to an electrical/analog signal. Therefore accuracy is really the sole goal here. And accuracy is obviously far easier to achieve in the digital realm (which I think supports @devinplombier ’s point). 2) Conversion to electrical/anslog - here’s where it gets interesting and more challenging, and where lots of differences emerge, both in the digital and analog realms. For analog, the movement of the cantilever is converted to an electrical signal connected to the moving magnet or moving coil. And then you’ve got the gain required and RIAA conversion. Holy smokes, it’s a gd miracle! On the digital side the “electrical signal” is created by the DAC, which is why we always talk about the DAC as operating in the analog realm. Ok, so what makes a streamer special or different from the CD transport? Absolutely nothing, and that’s the point. It’s just a different transport whose only purpose should be to read the source material accurately before it is converted to an analog signal. Just as with turntables and cd transports, streamers can do a better or worse job of adding noise (distortion), but the objective is just accuracy. There are no “musical” streamers.
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O P here. I appreciate but certainly didn’t except this many responses on a subject which has been hashed over before. Thanks. I was this close to ordering the Volumio RIVO+ plus outboard power supply but because I am initially planning on WiFi connection only I read the RIVO suffers connectivity wise. I’ve read that the Cambridge EXN100 is quite capable with great results via WiFi. Still reading, still researching, still thinking — |
Sadly, I am going to have to disappoint you. I am open to the possibility that a streamer can make a difference in sound quality, however I doubt that "vital" accurately represents it, and "primary" it ain’t. I realize this statement puts me in the company of men who own Naim gear. I am mortified, but what’s a person going to do. You mention elsewhere that you are a trained architect (I’ve never met untrained ones), so I’m going to guess that you have some passing familiarity with how stuff gets built. Like, you prep and stabilize your site, pour your foundation, erect your walls, etc. Same goes for building an audio system; there is a process involved, and a rational way to go about it. Sane people don’t build their systems around streamers any more than you build your buildings around sliding closet doors. I am not denying the importance of closet doors, mind you; just that there is a right place for everything. Next up: why would a streamer that merely transports ones and zeros make a difference in sound quality? Is devinplombier insane? Stay tuned |
@sns - I am curious how I might configure a clean/dirty side network. My music server is hard-wired to the mesh router base unit and runs Roon Server (core) for three systems. The streamer (Roon endpoint) in the main music system is hard wired from the same switch as the server but two other systems have streamer/endpoints that are wired to mesh satellite units on the same wi-fi as we use for television and computers. Do you have any suggestions of how I could set up a clean/dirty side network? If no, would the Switch X be beneficial for my set-up? Thanks |
@yyzsantabarbara i am sorry, I forgot to respond. I had a customer who was without digital due to a product failure and I sold him my Klimax DSM sample and had to wait for a new one which took a while and is going to be on demo in customers homes for a couple weeks. I have not had a chance. At some point I will. What is interesting is I am not hearing much of a difference between server vs stream on Linn devices, I suspect due to the robust buffer that Linn needs for its Exakt system. It will be interesting to see if optical does have an impact. I did get some swtitches and other devices (brands will remain unmentioned) that I have tested prior to my oladra in the chain they have had no impact that I could perceive or they created issues that prevented testing. One device failed and others have caused network and connection issues. I have not found anything that works and makes a meaningful difference. |
There is an alternative to the Switch X, and what I do. I provide a clean/audio only network segregated from my whole house network via modem>router with wifi disabled, on clean side this feeds NAS and server, on dirty or whole house side feeds another router with wifi enabled, this feeds whole house. All equipment on clean side powered via LPS. Switch X could be superior to this via isolation from the constant pinging a router gives and receives.
Quality of one's network also has audio quality repercussions, and to think that some don't believe servers, streamers, dacs don't make a difference! Just have to write that off to there are no known unknowns for some.
As for those with Roon, try a two computer or server to streamer setup. Server contains the Core, streamer contains the Endpoint. Roon specifically designed for this, keeping these functions discrete results in superior sound quality. Bottom line, streaming is a relatively fast moving technology, some people understand there are still many known unknowns, this the mother of invention. |
thank you for your kind response - yes I believe you did miss something, but there’s no need for apology - of course pres, amps and speakers are vital, but no less and no more than a power outlet is to what is delivered to one’s ears - I was merely stating that while these components are all important, the source component of a server or streamer is no less so, and in fact is as primary as anything and everything else in the signal chain. I believe the reason some of us do not think consideration of digital sources are as equally vital to that of an analog cartridge is because of the ongoing indoctrination that digital merely concerns ones and zeros, and a little bit of jitter, while the building evidence is to the absolute contrary. It all boils down to whether one believes everything that is heard of music can be measured or not. I’ve provided links to articles on auditory science that tell us measurements don’t show us everything just yet, and also encouraged audiophiles to learn the skill of critical listening in order to gauge for themselves, because even after measurements are at the point to better describe how the human ear hears, we will still each have our differences in hearing and listening ability, meaning some of us will actually not need to spend beyond what our ears or listening ability are capable of. I don’t mean this in snarky insult, but in absolute and considered honesty. I have a friend who’s hearing is so bad or unlearned, he is unable to hear the difference between the decent line magnetic 845p tube amplifier and a particularly nasty solid state. Most would have a laugh at his expense, but he’s completely joyful with the relatively affordable single box naim uniti atom and his Klipsch heresy IVs, and he doesn’t tell me I’m stupid to spend so much on equipment that makes no difference. In any case, i hope you leave yourself open to the possibility that the digital source of a server or a streamer is as vital and primary to a sound system, as a pre, an amp and speakers are. It will change what music means to you, the way it did for me. I am incredibly fortunate to have had access to so many with greater experience than me, to have gotten to where I have found myself - audiogon is one of those points of access. In friendship - kevin |
Pre, amps, and speakers deliver the sound to your ears regardless of which source you listen to. Short of giving a dealer $300000 to seed your system and using that as a baseline to improve upon, it is unclear how you propose to evaluate sources and other components without having a good system core - pre, amps, and speakers - settled. I think you will agree that there would be no point playing a fine MC cartridge and phono stage through some gear you watch movies on. You’d have absolutely no idea what that cartridge sounds like. If I missed something I apologize. |
Unfortunately, some believe good analog to be primarily about the pre, amp and speakers, in failing to understand it all begins with the needle and cartridge. Spending any less effort on that and nothing else downstream matters. As with digital, everything within our control begins with the source that picks up the recording.
In friendship - kevin |
Unfortunately, too many people still treat digital like analog. Were this a freezing night in 1910, those people would throw a thick blanket over the hood of their new automobile so the engine doesn’t catch cold. When it comes to digital components, the reality is that the sound quality delta between entry-level and state-of-the-art is far, far narrower than in the analog world, including amplifiers and speakers. A $200 Chinese DAC is going to sound okay, maybe a little harsh and tinny. Plug it into a good preamp, now it sounds pretty good! Whereas a $200 amp is useless for anything beyond midfi desktop background music to listen to while your zoom meetings are on mute. It follows that, when building a good system, one’s efforts are best focused on the primary components - preamplifier, amplifiers and speakers. These form the living core of any system. Only if and when that’s dialed does it make sense to shift focus to digital components and cables. |
@mgrif104 thanks for mentioning Positive Feedback's review of Switch X. I had no idea of the inner workings. This unfortunately is beyond my budget but have recently been made aware of the Hyperlink-Network Switch from Fidelizer, available at a very much more affordable price. I tied but couldn't post a link. Experience with Fidelizer Pro was impressive as are the glowing and numerous reviews of his Nimitra streamer. |
Within the context of using Roon, I have clearly heard sonic differences between different streamers, but not between competent servers. Some of the devices discussed in these threads are actually server/streamers as they perform both functions. When using Roon, it is convenient to network your server, which allows you to operate multiple music systems through different streamers located in different zones throughout your home.
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lol! We’ll just have to disagree on that. I’ve provided my 20+ years’ streaming experience, links to discussions where multiple perspectives have been shared, industry resources for helping others evaluate products, and credible explanations for my and others’ experiences base in science and logic. Pretty much the opposite of confirmation bias. |
thank you for your well-mannered reply, mdalton; ) - my response is just to say that my post was indeed relevant to your fundamental point, which claims that everything that matters can be measured. I provided links to articles that say this is not true. And just one other thing, you also claim that you’re ’simply providing an alternative perspective to help others educate themselves to make informed decisions’ - I would argue this is not true either. I persuade others to critically listen for themselves to decide, and provide links to help broaden knowledge. Your telling others and less experienced audiophiles not to bother listening and learning for themselves because the ‘science’ and the measurements tell the full story, is not an alternative perspective nor is it a helping hand towards education and informed decisions - it is the basis of indoctrination and the very foundation of confirmation bias itself. In friendship - kevin |
Sure, it makes sense, but is not really responsive to my fundamental points. Jitter is well understood and measured. And there are folks who know a lot more than me about the science who have done all sorts of tests on the limits of human hearing as it relates to jitter, and those levels tend to be many multiples above what most of the decent streamers we’re talking about measure at (some of them talk about msecs vs psecs). And I find it interesting that none of the uber high end streamers publish any specs that I’m aware of showing how much better their products are than their cheaper competitors as it relates to jitter or any other noise measurement. But still, that doesn’t matter either. Because I’ve shown actual measurements that are essentially identical to each other at price points ranging from $1k to over $30k. So even if you are hyper sensitive to jitter, if there are no differences between streamer a and streamer b, there is nothing for you to be hyper sensitive to. I guess you could make an argument that there are as yet undiscovered graviton and dark matter jitter particles that we’re not measuring, but don’t you think the manufacturer who has mastered their elimination would want to brag about it a little? There are some very serious people who think jitter was largely solved once we became aware of it well over a decade ago - remember how the wyred4sound mod of the Sonos was primarily about jitter reduction (and upsampling, of course)? But since it’s pretty non-intuitive for so many of us, jitter is still focused on by many of us as some mystical thing to invoke when we don’t really understand what’s going on. I love our hobby, and I love all of my systems, and how they measure has virtually nothing to do with that love. I just think folks are wasting alot of time - and yes money - on an area of the hobby that has nothing to do with musical enjoyment. And worse still (and this is what I find particularly irksome), they spend alot of time trying to convince others to make the same mistake for the wrong reasons. Unlike many, I am fortunate that I have the financial freedom to spend what some non-audiophiles might believe are silly amounts of money on new toys to indulge my passion. (My latest silliness is a $7500 subwoofer with a custom finish to match my lovingly restored Altec Santiagos.) So no, I am not “heap(ing) scorn” due to “financial constraints.” I’m simply providing an alternative perspective to help others educate themselves to make informed decisions. |
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The point may be mute. You buy the streamer you like or the one you can afford and be happy. Same as cars, houses, or anything really. The ones and zeros are probably not important. If you are happy with WiiM... great. If you are happy with Bluesound.... that’s great too. Maybe HiFi Rose or Aurender that’s just fine as well. Lets all keep this in mind.... they are all boxes of wires, not much more than that. Also the service and support is often absent from the conversation. It should be a factor since some companies are almost non-existent. You may find yourself needing someone to fix your fancy box of wires. |
The human ear works in non-linear process, and can hear the smallest differences in the time domain too subtle to be accurately measured. In the auditory sciences, this is known as fine-grained temporal perception, or simply, ‘auditory acuity’. This does mean that human listening can be trained to hear nuance of timing difference that vitally impact how we hear the ebb and flow of music which resides not only in the notes and frequencies of what is heard, but the infinitesimal or broad spaces of time that separate them. What is vital here to to know that listening, as with seeing, touching, smelling and tasting, can be critically trained. Here are some references you can choose to read through - How We Hear: The Perception and Neural Coding of Sound - PMC https://developers.meta.com/horizon/design/audio-intro-localization/ If you believe that jitter is detrimental to digital sound reproduction, you have to acknowledge that you don’t really know the degree to which it is so, since the threshold of jitter affecting the timing of what we hear cannot be precisely measured. A streamer is basically a computer, and computers generate huge and incredibly small quantities of various sources of jitter. For you and others to say that you conclusively know the threshold at which jitter cannot affect timing couldn’t possibly define confirmation bias more clearly, whether through appeal to measurements or an unacknowledged inability to hear subtle difference. And I say ‘subtle difference’ not because the difference is subtle, only because it appears subtle from just one viewpoint. Learning how to listen is like learning how to ski - after all these years, the excitement I felt the very first time I skied Mount Hood in Oregon is no different from the excitement I feel about it today, forty one years later, and despite a completely different skill set. Imagine the beginner plowing on a groomer looking up at the expert flying down a black diamond - the beginner may be unable to see the subtle late initiation of turn, that tiny lack of edge control, the almost unnoticeable late transfer of weight. All that beginner can see is that of a small return past being that of an expert skier. Now put your mind into that of that advanced skier, knowing his or her weight is ever so slightly back, excited to achieve better flow with carving, through the offpiste, moguls or in perfection of that backflip. Every step forward, no matter how little, is no small return. You see, there is no end to our adventure, no end to what such endeavour brings. The law of diminishing returns only exists from a viewpoint of the beginner, not the experienced audiophile. While it is perfectly understandable that one is unable to proceed further due to financial constraints, it is not acceptable to heap scorn on those listening or skiing at a higher level of the adventure. This adventure of listening is the reason so many audiophiles resort to grandiose claims or hyperbole whenever they hear difference, it is due to the powerful effect that the ebb and flow of music has in us, and it is as much the pleasure in finding a piece of equipment that takes us up to a new level of realism, as it is joy in our having learned another skill in our journey of listening. Hyperbole should never be condoned, but it helps to understand that it only comes from the excitement of having experienced an entirely new facet in the journey of listening. Finally, if you could take a moment and carefully read through my earlier post, note especially the bit which says ‘Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while.’ - i did acknowledge you hear difference, just not enough to make a better engineered streamer worth your while. No misrepresentation there, big or small. I hope this has made sense. Do excuse me for sounding snarky at the end of my previous post - it was not intended, but I realise came off that way, upon a reread. In friendship - kevin |
You know that nice feeling you get when you walk into an IKEA store? The warm smell of cinnamon wafting from the oven? Except the only ovens in IKEA’s kitchens are the microwaves with which they nuke horsemeat meatballs made in Slovakia. Many people aren’t even conscious of the cinnamon aroma being piped into the store entrance area during business hours, but it still registers subconsciously and they’re feeling just a little bit better for it. Too many people hear sonic differences between different brands and price points of streamers to dismiss. Their ears are too well-trained (some of them, anyway) to explain away with confirmation bias. But, maybe they’re just hearing that warm cinnamon aroma. |
”sigh”. You slightly misrepresented my position. Please see my post on 4/25 at 4:05 pm. I do and have heard differences across streamers, and I believe many others do as well. However, due to a misunderstanding of what streamers do or don’t do, I believe that many mischaracterize the causes of the differences they hear (or don’t hear). For example, if they have an NOS DAC that is highly sensitive to jitter, moving from a bluesound to an Aurender can be revelatory. Or if they have a DAC that reclocks, maybe they don’t hear much if any difference. Or maybe their new streamer also oversamples, and that changes the sound. Or maybe the internal streamer associated with their very high quality DAC generated extraordinary amounts of jitter. Or maybe they changed their DAC at the same time and neglected to mention that when they posted. All of these are real world examples of threads that have occurred on this site where the OP initially claimed magic healing powers for their new streamer. And I do believe that there are definitely some systems with lower noise floors and more resolving speakers that can make any differences easier to hear. Finally, I also do believe that yes, in audio as in every other sphere of our lives, we are all vulnerable to confirmation bias, so yes, in some circumstances, I am skeptical of some differences that some of us believe we hear. On one thread, a newbie swore his new streamer was an improvement - I was castigated for pointing out that the streaming technology of his new streamer was exactly the same, down to individual parts in the signal chain, as his prior streamer from the same manufacturer (confirmed by manufacturer). |
@kckrs - it must be draining having to read through so many polar opposite comments, so I’ll keep this an easy read. It is known we each sense the world differently - as a trained architect, I am able to tell when a line is off level by an eighth of an inch over the length of three and a half feet, while I have friends who couldn’t tell even if the level is off by an entire inch and a quarter. In much the same way, we each hear very differently, but by degrees much finer than the sense of sight. I know a concert pianist who hears and understands timing, pitch and upper frequencies so acutely and accurately, it boggles my mind. Likewise I know a good many audiophiles more experienced with listening and who hear considerably better than I can. The differences in opinion we read in audiogon are as coloured by natural or learned ability over listening as they are by equipment performance. Mdalton and some others cannot hear much of the difference between cheap and expensive streamers to make the expensive ones worth their while. Steakster, fleschler and a few others more can, and understand for themselves how important those differences and/or improvements are for each themselves. You have to find a way to listen to different streamers in a system where the only thing that gets switched is the streamer, to know if the quality differences between streamers is something you can indeed hear. If you do hear those differences, then welcome to this difficult and potentially expensive world of our wonderful and amazing hobby. If you don’t, thank your lucky stars and settle for something along the lines of what mdalton is recommending - you wouldn’t be able to hear much difference in any case - not a bad thing really, since you won’t have to deal with the finer, nuanced aspects of music realism. In friendship - kevin |
@fleschler Sure you can. A Bluesound Node with and external LPS from LHY, SBooster, or Teddy Pardo will get you pretty decent sound and a user-friendly app for under $1000, but you’ll also want a Qobuz or Tidal subscription to go with it. |
Yes, you can get enjoyable sound from a streamer in the price range you suggest. A pre-owned Aurender, Auralic, Innuos would fit the bill. But you have a beautiful, well thought out system and room. And, while you have a great collection of music, streaming via Qobuz or Tidal gives you access to an even greater library. With a streamer of similar quality to the rest of your system, you can explore that world library at the same quality as you enjoy via your CDs when played through your Poseidon. And, you’d have access to a large library of hi-res streaming content as well. Not all of it is good, but some of it is noticeably better than CD quality. With a good quality streamer, you might find you rarely spin a silver disk. Dipping your toe in is a good start, but for your system, I’d jump in. My two cents. Best, |
I was considering an inexpensive streamer for less critical but still enjoyable listening to music that I don't own (61,100 LPs/CDs/78s/R2R). It will be installed into a Lampizator Poseidon DAC. Can I get somewhat satisfying sound from an under $1,000 streamer (often mentioned are $200 to $400 cheap streamers)? |
