Can there be sonic differences between moderate and high priced streamers when used for streaming only. I will not use or engage an onboard DAC or any other feature, just stream from Tidal or Amazon to DAC. If the unit is just transferring zeros and ones to a DAC can there be differences in say a $300 WiiM and a $3000 dSC streamer? Thanks
Nope, not directing anything at you. But it doesn’t seem like you’re getting my point. So let me “flip the tree” as they say in statistics. If I told people that my Koetsu is a better cartridge than their cheaper cartridge, and that any criticism of my Koetsu only reflected the critic’s failure to invest sufficiently in his or her cartridge, or that their system must be insufficiently resolving to appreciate the perfection that is Koetsu, I would be making a dumb argument. It would be an even dumber argument if I said that my Koetsu sounded better and more accurate than their cartridge to my ears, even in the face of frequency response measurements showing the Koetsu to have a rolled off upper end. Now I acknowledge, btw, that this is not a perfect analogy - indeed, the complexities associated with the analog realm do not lend themselves as easily to objective measurement as the digital realm. (Keep in mind that DACs operate in the analog realm.) But servers and streamers operate solely in the digital realm. So in fact, the argument that Big$ server/streamer is better, especially when it flies in the face of easy-to-quantify measurements, is in fact even dumber than my Koetsu example.
In summary, I really don’t care how much someone spends, but I do care if they argue that you have to spend extreme amounts on glorified file movers if you want to have a great sounding streaming system. Unfortunately you see that argument made by many on this site.
As one Absolute Sound reviewer put it: “A simple, well-designed, robust streaming-signal chain should not have an audible effect on the sound of a music file.” And in my view, this doesn’t need to cost much. And that’s what the OP was asking, isn’t it?
You must be directing your comments to someone else. I’ve never said Antipodes was better than any other music server. I always use " preferred" when I compare components. I never used the words "more accurate" either. I’ve never sad anything that you have posted.
I don’t follow reviewers. I determine how much I’m willing to spend for a component and I get a home audition when possible. If my wife and I determine a component to be a good value, I purchase it.
Great responses still coming through, thanks. However, I should clarify my interweb signal which, due to my “remote” location and where my listening room is situated is via WiFi only, no hardwired connections. So cleaning the signal with line switches or Ethernet is not possible. I will be relying on the ability of the streamer to handle to WiFi signal and pass it along to a DAC.
Might as well put in my two cents. As far as streamers, the way I see it is deciding which application to use to send an email. Regardless which one you choose, the message should arrive 🤔.
I should clarify my interweb signal which, due to my “remote” location and where my listening room is situated is via WiFi only, no hardwired connections. So cleaning the signal with line switches or Ethernet is not possible. I will be relying on the ability of the streamer to handle to WiFi signal and pass it along to a DAC.
You should at least try something like a Wi-Fi extender or Mesh system so you can run an Ethernet cable from that to your streamer. Many people here have done that and found it to sound better than letting the streamer process the Wi-Fi signal. I believe it’s due to the Wi-Fi receiver in the streamer degrading performance due to noise, poor quality, or whatever, and hardwiring the streamer to an extender or Mesh node gets around this. Either way, it’s relatively cheap to try and well worth the effort given the potential benefits.
As far as streamers, the way I see it is deciding which application to use to send an email. Regardless which one you choose, the message should arrive
@johnsmith55 Yeah you would think that, but unfortunately that’s not the way it works in audio. Unlike emails, Word documents, etc. audio is very susceptible to things like noise and timing, and better streamers employ better power supplies, cases, clocks, galvanic isolation, etc. to minimize those things degrading the digital signal. Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer will tell you there’s a very significant difference between the two. Believe me I know it doesn’t make intuitive sense, but it is what it is.
"You should at least try something like a Wi-Fi extender or Mesh system so you can run an Ethernet cable from that to your streamer."
That is exactly what I do with my second and third systems, by running Ethernet cables from mesh system satellites into Roon endpoints/streamers. Works great for background and/or party music. Never tried it for my main system but, based on the sound I get from the other systems, it may work fine in my main system too.
@soix I would agree that non-data "noise" such as, say, SMPS noise can affect sound quality if and when allowed to enter the analog realm, if you will (usually meaning your DAC’s output section); but would you say that that noise can affect sound quality while within the digital realm, unless of course it is so extreme that it results in gross RW protocol failure? Trying to understand where you’re coming from. Thanks!
The logical fallacies abound from our friends. “Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer…” This is called the “appeal to authority” fallacy, and it’s not even a good authority. Note in my first post where I linked to a discussion where an audiogon member actually didn’t hear a material difference between a bluesound node and an Aurender W20 ($23k). So I guess the full appeal is to “anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer and agrees with me.”. lol!!
Yes I get it even digital audio is susceptible to noise, ok fine. So I’ll put it to you this way: when I dove deep into streamer search I ended up with the antipodes Oladra. I had the opportunity and privilege to spend as much time as I wished with it. I tested, tested, demoed, tested, and demoed, against my personal custom built pc. Same cables, dac, amp, cords, conditioners, volume settings, everything even balanced so as to make the testing process evenly balanced, no advantages or disadvantages on either device all ending to the tail of the chain to my Susvara. After weeks of testing, late nights, gallons of coffee and my favorite playlist consisting of 490 tracks coming out of roon, being mesmerized how sublime, beautiful, pleasant, and powerful emotional everything sounded. My findings were the Oladra sounded a 10/10, my custom pc 9.9/10 😁. Enjoy the 🎶.
The logical fallacies abound from our friends. “Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer…” This is called the “appeal to authority” fallacy, and it’s not even a good authority.
@mdalton No, it’s called most of are capable of using our ears and can easily hear the improvements better and/or more expensive streamers can provide despite you not being able to and despite your one example of an audiogon member who apparently can’t either. We get it, you’re a streamer denier despite trying to say you’re not and you’re in the vast, vast minority here but obviously the majority of us are just deluding ourselves. Rrrriiiiiiight. But you just keep tilting at windmills and we’ll just keep making decisions based on our ears.
Audiophiles who own more expensive streamers are generally no longer comparing these to the affordable, they've moved past that. Vast majority are comparing expensive streamers, the fact a wide variety are purchased likely goes to show all expensive streamers don't sound alike, they aren't choosing their particular streamer based on some emotional attachment or bragging rights. Evaluating sound quality is what sets the audiophile apart from the casual listener, based on my experience listening to a wide variety of high end systems over many decades I've come to understand many audiophiles are very good judges of sound quality. Seems some believe they have golden ears, so if they don't hear a difference between streamers its not possible for others to hear differences.
I should add the objectivist would also presume their system to be reference quality, therefore, has the potential to expose any possible difference in streamer sound quality.
Many years ago, when I got my Auralic Aries streamer, it sounded better than my modded laptop, but not night & day better. I decided to try an experiment.
The stock DC umbilical cord to the factory LPS looked really cheap and flimsy. I DIY’d a new DC umbilical cord out of 20 awg pure OCC copper solid core wiring. Huh! You got to be kidding me! The same streamer sounded much, much better. Totally leaving the modded laptop in the dust. Later, I replaced the factory LPS with a more powerful after-market low noise LPS. Another substantial jump in sound quality. The sound quality jumped again when I plugged the streamer's LPS into a power conditioner. This totally disproved the theory that it’s only 1’s & 0’s. Of course, a high-quality, well-designed streamer with all the tweaks built-in is going to cost more.
As @sns pointed out, those who already own expensive streamers don’t regress back down the food chain. They only go up. If the budget allows, it’s worth it.
- - -
BTW, I don’t use a waveform monitor to listen. My ears do that. They know what a piano sounds like. I listen to a real one often.
I would agree that non-data "noise" such as, say, SMPS noise can affect sound quality if and when allowed to enter the analog realm, if you will (usually meaning your DAC’s output section); but would you say that that noise can affect sound quality while within the digital realm
@devinplombier It’s well known that adding an external LPS to streamers that don’t have an internal one meaningfully improves their performance, so yes in that way it affects sound quality in the digital realm. Another example would be the use of galvanic isolation in better and more pricey streamers and DDCs. If noise didn’t interfere with the signal in the digital realm then neither of these things would make a difference. The better/cleaner the digital signal is going into the DAC the better otherwise transports/streamers wouldn’t sound any different, so in that way things like decreasing noise and using better clocks in streamers (and transports) improves sound quality.
As far as mdalton, he’s on record as saying there’s no point in spending more than $2k on a streamer, which is just silly among most anyone here who’s heard one and speaks to his inability to hear those differences. While that’s fine for him, coming here and possibly discouraging others from even trying a pricier streamer by telling people there’s no difference is a disservice to those who may not suffer from his hearing disability, and that’s the real problem. My point is just try for yourself and if you don’t hear an improvement with a better/more expensive streamer then fine, but for most people here it doesn’t play out that way, which is why companies like Innuos, Aurender, Grimm, Antipodes, etc. exist and thrive — it’s not because we’re all fooling ourselves here or because we wanna just throw our $$$ away for no reason.
Well thank you sir, very kind of you! You are hereby invited to hang with me anytime. We’ll drink scotch, talk politics - respectfully - and listen to great music on whichever system strikes your fancy.
@soixin the process of slightly missing my point, you seem to be helping my point. At the end of the day, a quality DAC with a sophisticated input section will strip any and all noise from the incoming data stream; in that way, digital accoutrements such as audiophile Ethernet switches, DDCs, $1000 USB cables and the like are paradoxically most efficacious if you own a crappy $99 DAC, which I most definitely trust you don’t.
I’m not saying there are night and day differences between streamers or any components. In my experience, easily discernable differences are hard to ignore. In my opinion, high-end audio is about hearing small differences, that so may of us are willing to spend significant money for. How much one is willing to spend for incremental improvements is different for each of us. That’s where I am with speakers now. I’ve heard several speakers/system that I prefer to mine, but I’m not willing to spend the money to purchase a new system or new speakers.
@devinplombier Of course the better the DAC can clean/reclock the incoming signal the better, but even the best DACs benefit from a better incoming signal. Nobody is gonna feed a $20k DAC with a $400 streamer or a $100 USB cable uncles they’ve got a screw loose.
Its nonsensical to believe dacs act as a noise conditioner for detail obscuring noise further upward in streaming chain. The only sense of 'conditioning' a dac can possibly achieve is optimizing certain inputs, this usually usb on most dacs. Galvanic isolation is one of the ways they achieve this, dac manufacturers understand they are only one link in streaming chain, so attempt to optimize how they interface with rest of chain. Interfaces amongst all the other components within a streaming chain require the same optimization dac manufacturers provide, data is traveling across the entire chain. And interfaces are only one consideration, minimizing noise within components is fundamental/a priori to achieve lowest noise floors for max resolution/transparency. And we haven't even gotten to clocks within these components, this has everything to do with presentation. And so are we going to argue that clocks makes no difference.
I tested, tested, demoed, tested, and demoed, against my personal custom built pc.
I have read about some other fellow who custom built his own PC for streaming, pushing everything to the n'th degree, testing hundreds of combinations of processors, parts, and power supplies, custom ordering parts from suppliers to spec, some parts engineered and developed in house, including the power supply. Apparently the end product is very good, haven't heard it myself. His name is Emile Bok.
I'll add my thoughts. I have a Wiim pro, a Zenith Mk3 and a Denon something or other.
Objectivist data seems to indicate they all should sound the same. To my ears they don't. Now, is my perceived difference worth the $? for me it is. Have not checked the specs but perhaps this relates to the size of the buffers?
In the end, IMHO, the biggest factors when choosing a streamer are which sources are handled (natively or through work arounds) and how friendly and useful are the apps.
I like the Innuos app and I also like the Wiim app. Innuos does not stream Amazon HD thus I keep a Wiim for that on my main system.
1) jitter - if they reclock signal, they do so to eliminate jitter
2) power supply - DACs typically have filters at the power supply. Extent depends on design.
3) analog output - most DACs have filters to separate analog signal from digital noise.
Bottom line, there is a wide variance in the extent to which DACs are susceptible to noise generated from a streamer. That’s one of the reasons why not every persons’svexoerience of a specific streamer will be the same.
I too have a custom build, while I've built/assembled or modified both general and audio only streamers, one I'm presently using was built/assembled by one of the most senior and respected audiophilestyle forum members. This particular unit was a proven standout compared to some of the top flight off the shelf streamers. Eventually this design surpassed by the Taiko Extreme clones which last time I checked were considered to be best diy design possible. The latest Taiko, Wadax, probably some others go beyond any custom build. These custom builds generally use Enterprise level components, low noise, latency (meaning speed) and precise clocking is the goal. My particular streamer, based upon a Windows motherboard, as do most of these custom builds, requires very specialized lps as Windows motherboards use a variety of voltages for various functions. I'm presently running JCAT Optimo ATX lps, $6200 last time I looked, this took it way over top of previous attempts at lps via a variety of external lps powering modified internal switch mode power supplies. And then there are choices of operating systems, I'm running Euphony OS which disables virtually every non essential function of a normal Windows motherboard. And there are a variety of PCie cards from JCAT, Pink Faun, others for optimized network, usb, I2S interfaces, these can also be powered externally via lps of your choice. Cool thing with custom builds is you get to hear what individual components add to the mix, everything matters. Understanding what's important in custom builds will allow one to understand how streamers work and why they're so important to the streaming chain. For those interested in learning from the experts and designers of streaming equipment the Audiophilestyle forum is an invaluable resource.
“Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer will tell you there’s a very significant difference between the two.”
That's a laughable fallacy—there are numerous counterexamples. Here is one.
@lanx0003 Well good for you — you found a few examples so you must be right. 🙄 There are people who “believe” cables don’t make a difference, but the majority experience otherwise. Likewise there are hundreds here who’d strongly disagree with you, and you’re in a huge minority that should tell you something. But you keep banging that drum and using whatever crap streamer you have and the rest of us with good systems and ears who can hear the difference will live on happily.
actually, just on that one thread I sent the link on, there were at least 15 members who expressed some variation on the view that their are minimal differences with streamers above a certain threshold, or that they were not able to discern a material difference between an expensive streamer and a modestly priced system. I’m guessing that’s at least 30% of the participants in that discussion. There were another 20-30% of participants who didn’t have enough experience to know one way or another. So just because you refuse to listen to your colleagues doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They’re just typically not as loud (present company excepted, lol!).
thats a non sequiter. Unless by “measurement crowd” you mean the ability to count and listen to the number of people with whom one agrees or disagrees.
I’m glad you are adding your voice to those who know from experience that not only is a PC more than adequate as a streamer, it is often superior. Also (and I didn’t even think of that before) it is true that:
Cool thing with custom builds is you get to hear what individual components add to the mix, everything matters.
Very true! I must however respectfully point out that there is no such thing as a "Windows motherboard". Now, Windows has been the dominant OS for 40 years, and it follows that motherboard design certainly accommodates Windows, but motherboards are by definition agnostic.
Although Taiko successfully runs Windows in their Extreme, Linux is probably better suited to a DIY build due to its almost infinite customizability. Right out the box, Windows does not want you to customize it and it will resist.
One last word, "Enterprise" motherboards (that is, server boards) are preferred because of their relative lack of features and absence of related componentry, thereby eliminating potential noise sources; a few of those boards also natively support SFP (the main fiber Ethernet standard), which is desirable as it provides 100% galvanic isolation between the PC and the next component in the chain, thereby ensuring that any noise that happens in the computer, stays in the computer.
@mdalton In your attempt to support your position, you stated that you were guessing at an imaginary % based on a discussion thread that was in no way a credible statistical model for evaluation. That’s a non-sequitur to say the least.
I recently acquired a custom built server by Pareto Audio. As alluded to above, the design goal with the Linux core is to remove all non-audio related processes, reduce the number of interrupts, speed up processing, eliminate non-essential network interfaces, and isolate with fiber optics throughout the entire network. This has been a big step up and sounds about as good as can be done with a Sonore Signature Rendu Deluxe endpoint with USB output. As good as this sounds, it is further improved with a SOtM USBultra USB conditioner. To test the assumption that I've reached the limits of a USB DAC input, the next move is to find a FO-to-I2S endpoint into an good I2S DAC TBD--perhaps the top Audio GD or PS Audio's forthcoming top model.
You’re joking, right? I responded to the following assertion:
“Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer will tell you there’s a very significant difference between the two.”
Congrats on your google skills, but I don’t need to do a survey to prove this wrong. I merely have to produce one example. I’ve produced many, including my own experience. And I don’t really care how many people believe one way or another. The only person who seems to believe that majority rules on this issue is the person who made the statement. Nice try though. You should go back to your day job.
And I don’t really care how many people believe one way or another. The only person who seems to believe that majority rules on this issue is the person who made the statement.
@mdaltonYeah, the fact that the vast majority of people here agree streamers make a difference versus the relatively few examples you’re able to dig up with the opposite view doesn’t indicate anything whatsoever. 🙄🤪 Deny, deny, deny. You’re in the vast minority here for a reason whether you wanna accept that or not. If you’re right then there a thousands of us kidding ourselves that we hear differences, or maybe — just maybe — it’s you who can’t hear a difference. Which one of those sounds more logical and likely? I care not whether someone hears a difference in streamers or not, but for you to tell people there is no difference because you can’t hear it and that that may stop someone from just trying for themselves because they might actually believe you is the bigger problem. And yeah, when the vast majority feels more one way than the other I tend to believe them more than the minority. Silly me.
To the OP: As you can see, there’s an ongoing debate among a number of us who’ve responded to your question that sometimes gets in the way of clarity. So I’ll speak directly to you in order to clarify my position, rather than have it cartoonishly misrepresented by others:
1) Streamers work solely in the digital domain, and as such have no sonic signature of their own. That doesn’t mean there aren’t differences in the sound across different streamers, because streamers do differ with respect to the noise they produce or suppress. This noise - or its absence - can affect the extent to which you hear the true sonic signature of your DAC. Many mistakenly attribute this interaction to the sound of the streamer.
2) There are relatively inexpensive streamers that are state-of-the-art in terms of minimizing noise. This is relatively easy to measure.
3) There is a wide variation among DACs regarding the extent to which they may be affected by noise from a streamer. In the prior thread I shared with you, a general consensus emerged that the OP’s ARC DAC was probably highly insensitive to streamer noise, in part because all signals were reclocked. Having said that, his DAC was very sensitive to RFI/EMI, so he could hear a significant difference between an $80 vs. $230 coax cable connected to his DAC.
4) Because of #3 above, you might be able to get away with a Bluesound or Wiim and experience great sound, depending on your DAC. But because of #2 above, you can spend a little more than what a Wiim or Bluesound costs, but definitely under $2k, and have a high end streaming system with any good DAC.
5) You do not need to spend $10k (or $29k for gods sake) to have a high end streamer. But there are $10k+ streamers out there that are beautifully made and wonderfully engineered that will sound great if you have a great DAC.
Thank you for sharing the link. That old Audiogon thread veers into a ditch early on due to an argument over, I guess, the physical representation of a digital signal being transmitted over a wire? I honestly doubt it is likely to enlighten anyone, but I could be wrong.
I am also not sure why you chose to present Steve Nugent as an Intel employee, rather than as the founder of a high-end audio equipment company.
One may disagree with Steve, and I can’t say I don’t, but there is no denying the fact that he is a brilliant albeit idiosyncratic thinker whose ideas deserve broader standing in the audiophile world. His columns in the old Positive Feedback should be required reading for anyone interested in digital audio, especially those endeavoring to hold forth about it in forums such as this one.
It should be pointed out that Steve’s digital credentials are impeccable; this is the person who brought Pentium II to the world, not just a "team lead". 🤣
Unfortunately none of this transpires from your above post or from the thread you linked. I just thought it would be fair to do Steve Nugent some justice, especially for the benefit of those unfamiliar with his work.
The issue with the $329 WiiM Ultra is its internal clock is only "so-so" according to some reviewers. So, if you use it to feed an external DAC, make sure you are doing so in such a way that the presumably better clock in the more expensive DAC is doing the "driving" otherwise you are leaving performance that you paid for on the table. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the "best" way to do this is via USB, not optical or coax.
I know the Bluesound Nodes specifically have a "clock trim" function to turn on in software when feeding an external DAC.
Thx for the laugh. Your dismissiveness and bemusing discombobulations are reminiscent of William F. Buckley Jr. * I’ll just ignore your passive-aggressive behavior. I’ve dealt with worse arrogance in the corporate world and in academia – of which I suspect you’re a member.
The Intel reference was from Steve Nugent’s own bio. Perhaps, you should contact him for not bragging more about designing the Pentium II.
That old Audiogon thread veers into a ditch early on due to an argument over, I guess, the physical representation of a digital signal being transmitted over a wire?
What a strange comment.
Apparently, you might not be aware that there is wire in ethernet cables and coax cables - as referenced to in the OP’s question.
Apparently, you might not be aware ’that old Audigon thread’ has content that is still valid today.
Apparently, you might not be aware of the difference between an argument and a discussion.
So, I make you laugh; and you liken me to a prominent American intellectual who was renowned for his sharp wit and intelligence. We are going to get along great! 😃
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