Sound quality differences in streamers

@devinplombier 

ok, but if you’re playing WFB Jr. I get to play Christopher Hitchens.  Deal?

streamer discussion

see link above to a prior discussion that touches on same topic.  I am a strong proponent that, putting aside processing differences (e.g., reclocking, up sampling/oversampling, dsp), the only differences across streamers - sonically - is differences in noise, including power supply-related, RFi/EMI, and jitter (and the science is really clear on this, btw).  Some DACs do a much better job than others at eliminating any or certain types of noise from sources (streamers).  But regardless of your DAC, there are a number of relatively inexpensive (less than $2k) streamers that do a great job of minimizing noise.  Bottom line:  there’s a lot of hype out there re streamers in part because this is the leading edge of the industry for a lot of consumers still, so there’s a lot of opportunity for high margin products for producers, and misinformation.  Good luck.

A server for $29k.  Forgive me, but that’s just dumb.  Really dumb.  Like insanely dumb.

So here’s why, IMHO, it’s “dumb” to pay $29k for the Antipodes:  Like other high-cost server/streamers, Antipodes talks about its superior isolation and noise reduction.  The reason for this is because there is no other credible claim they can make, because servers and streamers do not have a sound of their own.  They simply differ as to generation/removal of noise.  Do I think they are lying about their “galvanic isolation” or their “ultra stable clock”?  Nope.  But what do the data tell us about the results?  That you can buy a cheap server and separate streamer and get the same noise reduction.

Paul Miller at HiFi News is one of the only people that I’m aware of that runs consistent tests on streamers.  What he does is run jitter tests on the output from a dac connected to a streamer, and compare that to the same dac connected to a noisy computer.  He also compares the s/n ratios of the output (though they don’t publish as much of this data as the jitter data).  So here are the results for the Oladra (Oladra jitter/PC jitter, measured in psec):

Audioquest Dragonfly - 120/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi Neo iDSD - 10/550 (snr - 110/110)

Mytek Brooklyn - 8/10(snr - n/a)

So are these good results? Absolutely!  Jitter is vanishingly low, and obviously dominated by the performance of the dac.  Same goes for s/n ratio.  But how does this compare to a well-engineered but significantly less expensive streamer?  Here are the results for the Volumio Rivo, which was about £1k when it was tested:

Audioquest Dragonfly - 135/300  (snr - 104/94)

iFi - 18/550 (snr - n/a)

Mytek - 8/10 (snr - n/a)

These results are virtually identical, and state of the art.  Miller even tested the Volumio with the dcs Vivaldi Apex, and it added no noise. Are there some other potential sources of noise not captured by these measures?  Maybe RFi/EMI, but there are very reasonably priced options available to handle that if that’s an issue in your system (e.g., going optical with one of the Sonore products).  

So that’s why I have this history of arguing against expensive server/streamer combos.  I mean if you want to own a luxury product for bragging rights, that’s cool I guess.  But where I object is when people get convinced by dealers and others that they have to own that luxury product to get optimal performance.  

With respect to my streamer bona fides, I was an early mover to streaming 20+ years ago, well before I got back into vinyl (which was probably about 15 years ago now).  And with respect to listening to streamers, I’ve had 10(ish) different models of streamers over the years.  It is true that I’ve never purchased an uber-expensive streamer - putting aside the original Yamaha Musicast server/streamer, which was quite pricey for the time, as I recall - but that would be weird, given my views.  Having said that, I have listened to quite expensive streamers at dealers and at friends’ houses, including A/B comparisons to try to understand what we’re hearing.  Most recently I heard a subtle difference in a Wilson Sasha system where streaming was first thru the Simaudio 891 ($25k), and then where streaming to the 891 dac was handled by an Innuos Pulsar.  I thought I heard a subtle improvement in the latter case.  Why?  Well this particular dealer is quite good, and to his credit acknowledged it’s simply about noise.  You see, as great a company as Simaudio is, they still manufacture to a price point.  And including a convenience feature like an on-board streamer with their preamp/dac means they clearly have to make some compromises, and have probably decided not to invest even more to get that last nth degree of noise reduction.  Antipodes has a greater technical challenge because they decided to combine the server with the streamer, and that presents a more significant noise issue than just the streamer.  So in order to get state of the art noise performance in that use case, they charge $29k.  
 

Again, I’m not saying that the Antipodes doesn’t sound great, I simply object to the claim thst you need to spend that amount to get that level of performance.  You don’t.  In addition, I’m not averse to folks spending alot on their systems - I mean I spent $8k on a cartridge for god’s sake!  I’m also contemplating a pretty serious outlay ($50k or more perhaps) when I purchase my “end of days” speakers.  I guess my one dogma though is that crazy audiophiles like me should be advertent with respect to our purchase decisions, not delusional.  If you acknowledge you bought something for its looks and exclusivity, that’s fine.  Just don’t try to convince yourself , and others more importantly, that you had to spend that amount for performance.  To wit, my Koetsu was an emotional purchase - it was hand painted with Urushi lacquer and Koetsus were originally voiced by Sugano on his personally modified Garrard 401.  I mean, of course I had to have it, lol!

@ricred1 

Nope, not directing anything at you.  But it doesn’t seem like you’re getting my point.  So let me “flip the tree” as they say in statistics.  If I told people that my Koetsu is a better cartridge than their cheaper cartridge, and that any criticism of my Koetsu only reflected the critic’s failure to invest sufficiently in his or her cartridge, or that their system must be insufficiently resolving to appreciate the perfection that is Koetsu, I would be making a dumb argument.  It would be an even dumber argument if I said that my Koetsu sounded better and more accurate than their cartridge to my ears, even in the face of frequency response measurements showing the Koetsu to have a rolled off upper end.   Now I acknowledge, btw, that this is not a perfect analogy - indeed, the complexities associated with the analog realm do not lend themselves as easily to objective measurement as the digital realm.  (Keep in mind that DACs operate in the analog realm.)   But servers and streamers operate solely in the digital realm.  So in fact, the argument that Big$ server/streamer is better, especially when it flies in the face of easy-to-quantify measurements, is in fact even dumber than my Koetsu example.  

In summary, I really don’t care how much someone spends, but I do care if they argue that you have to spend extreme amounts on glorified file movers if you want to have a great sounding streaming system.  Unfortunately you see that argument made by many on this site.  

As one Absolute Sound reviewer put it:   “A simple, well-designed, robust streaming-signal chain should not have an audible effect on the sound of a music file.” And in my view, this doesn’t need to cost much.  And that’s what the OP was asking, isn’t it?

@johnsmith55 

The logical fallacies abound from our friends.  “Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer…”  This is called the “appeal to authority” fallacy, and it’s not even a good authority.  Note in my first post where I linked to a discussion where an audiogon member actually didn’t hear a material difference between a bluesound node and an Aurender W20 ($23k).  So I guess the full appeal is to “anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer and agrees with me.”. lol!!

@devinplombier 

Well thank you sir, very kind of you!  You are hereby invited to hang with me anytime.  We’ll drink scotch, talk politics - respectfully - and listen to great music on whichever system strikes your fancy.

@sns 

DACs can filter noise in the following ways:

1) jitter - if they reclock signal, they do so to eliminate jitter

2) power supply - DACs typically have filters at the power supply.  Extent depends on design.

3) analog output - most DACs have filters to separate analog signal from digital noise.

Bottom line, there is a wide variance in the extent to which DACs are susceptible to noise generated from a streamer.  That’s one of the reasons why not every persons’svexoerience of a specific streamer will be the same.

@soix 

actually, just on that one thread I sent the link on, there were at least 15 members who expressed some variation on the view that their are minimal differences with streamers above a certain threshold, or that they were not able to discern a material difference between an expensive streamer and a modestly priced system.  I’m guessing that’s at least 30% of the participants in that discussion.  There were another 20-30% of participants who didn’t have enough experience to know one way or another.  So just because you refuse to listen to your colleagues doesn’t mean they don’t exist.  They’re just typically not as loud (present company excepted, lol!).

@steakster 

thats a non sequiter.  Unless by “measurement crowd” you mean the ability to count and listen to the number of people with whom one agrees or disagrees.

@steakster

You’re joking, right?  I responded to the following assertion:  

“Anyone who’s compared a $400 streamer to a $2k+ streamer will tell you there’s a very significant difference between the two.”

Congrats on your google skills, but I don’t need to do a survey to prove this wrong.  I merely have to produce one example.  I’ve produced many, including my own experience.  And I don’t really care how many people believe one way or another.  The only person who seems to believe that majority rules on this issue is the person who made the statement.  Nice try though.  You should go back to your day job.

To the OP:  As you can see, there’s an ongoing debate among a number of us who’ve responded to your question that sometimes gets in the way of clarity.  So  I’ll speak directly to you in order to clarify my position, rather than have it cartoonishly misrepresented by others:

1)  Streamers work solely in the digital domain, and as such have no sonic signature of their own.  That doesn’t mean there aren’t differences in the sound across different streamers, because streamers do differ with respect to the noise they produce or suppress.  This noise - or its absence - can affect the extent to which you hear the true sonic signature of your DAC.  Many mistakenly attribute this interaction to the sound of the streamer.

2) There are relatively inexpensive streamers that are state-of-the-art in terms of minimizing noise.  This is relatively easy to measure.  

3) There is a wide variation among DACs regarding the extent to which they may be affected by noise from a streamer.  In the prior thread I shared with you, a general consensus emerged that the OP’s ARC DAC was probably highly insensitive to streamer noise, in part because all signals were reclocked.  Having said that, his DAC was very sensitive to RFI/EMI, so he could hear a significant difference between an $80 vs. $230 coax cable connected to his DAC.

4) Because of #3 above, you might be able to get away with a Bluesound or Wiim and experience great sound, depending on your DAC.  But because of #2 above, you can spend a little more than what a Wiim or Bluesound costs, but definitely under $2k, and have a high end streaming system with any good DAC.

5) You do not need to spend $10k (or $29k for gods sake) to have a high end streamer.  But there are $10k+ streamers out there that are beautifully made and wonderfully engineered that will sound great if you have a great DAC.

Hope that helps.  Good luck in your journey.

@devinplombier 

yes, the proviso is always “absent up/oversampling, dsp, etc.”

@devinplombier 

? I’ve always referred to it as bile on the soul.  Some people just have it.  We can talk about them over scotch.

@fleschler 

iFi Zen Stream: $400

Primare NP5 Prisma: $800

Project Stream Box S2 Ultra: $900

Holo Audio Red: $950

Volumio Rivo:  $1200

Volumio Rivo+: $1500

lol! We’ll just have to disagree on that.  I’ve provided my 20+ years’ streaming experience, links to discussions where multiple perspectives have been shared, industry resources for helping others evaluate products, and credible explanations for my and others’ experiences base in science and logic.  Pretty much the opposite of confirmation bias.

@kevn 

”sigh”.  You slightly misrepresented my position.  Please see my post on 4/25 at 4:05 pm.  I do and have heard differences across streamers, and I believe many others do as well.  However, due to a misunderstanding of what streamers do or don’t do, I believe that many mischaracterize the causes of the differences they hear (or don’t hear).  For example, if they have an NOS DAC that is highly sensitive to jitter, moving from a bluesound to an Aurender can be revelatory.  Or if they have a DAC that reclocks, maybe they don’t hear much if any difference.  Or maybe their new streamer also oversamples, and that changes the sound.  Or maybe the internal streamer associated with their very high quality DAC generated extraordinary amounts of jitter.  Or maybe they changed their DAC at the same time and neglected to mention that when they posted.  All of these are real world examples of threads that have occurred on this site where the OP initially claimed magic healing powers for their new streamer.  And I do believe that there are definitely some systems with lower noise floors and more resolving speakers that can make any differences easier to hear.  Finally, I also do believe that yes, in audio as in every other sphere of our lives, we are all vulnerable to confirmation bias, so yes, in some circumstances, I am skeptical of some differences that some of us believe we hear.  On one thread, a newbie swore his new streamer was an improvement - I was castigated for pointing out that the streaming technology of his new streamer was exactly the same, down to individual parts in the signal chain, as his prior streamer from the same manufacturer (confirmed by manufacturer).

@kevn 

Sure, it makes sense, but is not really responsive to my fundamental points.  Jitter is well understood and measured.  And there are folks who know a lot more than me about the science who have done all sorts of tests on the limits of human hearing as it relates to jitter, and those levels tend to be many multiples above what most of the decent streamers we’re talking about measure at (some of them talk about msecs vs psecs).  And I find it interesting that none of the uber high end streamers publish any specs that I’m aware of showing how much better their products are than their cheaper competitors as it relates to jitter or any other noise measurement.  But still, that doesn’t matter either.  Because I’ve shown actual measurements that are essentially identical to each other at price points ranging from $1k to over $30k.  So even if you are hyper sensitive to jitter, if there are no differences between streamer a and streamer b, there is nothing for you to be hyper sensitive to.  

I guess you could make an argument that there are as yet undiscovered graviton and dark matter jitter particles that we’re not measuring, but don’t you think the manufacturer who has mastered their elimination would want to brag about it a little?  There are some very serious people who think jitter was largely solved once we became aware of it well over a decade ago - remember how the wyred4sound mod of the Sonos was primarily about jitter reduction (and upsampling, of course)?  But since it’s pretty non-intuitive for so many of us, jitter is still focused on by many of us as some mystical thing to invoke when we don’t really understand what’s going on.  

I love our hobby, and I love all of my systems, and how they measure has virtually nothing to do with that love.  I just think folks are wasting alot of time - and yes money - on an area of the hobby that has nothing to do with musical enjoyment.  And worse still (and this is what I find particularly irksome), they spend alot of time trying to convince others to make the same mistake for the wrong reasons.  

Unlike many, I am fortunate that I have the financial freedom to spend what some non-audiophiles might believe are silly amounts of money on new toys to indulge my passion.  (My latest silliness is a $7500 subwoofer with a custom finish to match my lovingly restored Altec Santiagos.)   So no, I am not “heap(ing) scorn” due to “financial constraints.” I’m simply providing an alternative perspective to help others educate themselves to make informed decisions.

@devinplombier 

Very interesting topic.  And I’m sure all will be shocked that I have a different view than @kevn  does as it relates to digital v analog.  I think perhaps a more apt analogy is as follows:

1) Reading the source - in the analog realm, everything starts with accurate reading of the music as described physically in the grooves.  Speed of turntable, tonearm and cartridge setup (e.g., VTA, VTF, etc.) and the stylus itself all contribute to how accurately the grooves are read.  In the digital world, putting streamers aside for a moment, the comparable factors for a cd player involve the transport mechanism and the laser.  In both examples, this all happens before conversion to an electrical/analog signal.  Therefore accuracy is really the sole goal here.  And accuracy is obviously far easier to achieve in the digital realm (which I think supports @devinplombier ’s point).

2) Conversion to electrical/anslog - here’s where it gets interesting and more challenging, and where lots of differences emerge, both in the digital and analog realms.  For analog, the movement of the cantilever is converted to an electrical signal connected to the moving magnet or moving coil.  And then you’ve got the gain required and RIAA conversion.  Holy smokes, it’s a gd miracle!  On the digital side the “electrical signal” is created by the DAC, which is why we always talk about the DAC as operating in the analog realm.  

Ok, so what makes a streamer special or different from the CD transport?  Absolutely nothing, and that’s the point.  It’s just a different transport whose only purpose should be to read the source material accurately before it is converted to an analog signal.  Just as with turntables and cd transports, streamers can do a better or worse job of adding noise (distortion), but the objective is just accuracy.  There are no “musical” streamers.

@kckrs 

Interesting re Volumio and wifi.  While I have no direct experience of that streamer, I do have experience with 4 others using wifi in my house.  They are: iFi Zen streamer, Pro-ject S2 Ultra, Okto DAC8 with raspberry pi self-installed, and self-assembled freestanding raspberry pi .  I have had zero problems with all of those.  I would postulate that quality of your wifi is a much better indication of whether it would work well or not, and there are pretty easy diagnostics you can run to assess that.  Good luck.  

@devinplombier 

Yep, I get it.  My streamer journey started with my first post-retirement project, which is when I built a raspberry pi.  My “bias” was that I was gonna hear a huge difference between it and my better streamers - everyone (almost) on Audiogon told me I would.  But I didn’t.  I was shocked at that outcome, so I assumed it must be my ears or my system, right?   The truth was way more complicated.  I have heard differences between streamers on certain systems, and the quality of my hearing has been pretty frequently complimented by industry professionals.  So wtf?  

There’s not one simple explanation, but it’s stitched together among several of my wordy (sorry everyone) posts on this thread.  Most importantly, if you fail to ground your listening experience in some minimal amount of technical understanding of what the moving parts are, then you are highly likely to misdiagnose the cause of what you hear.  This is a “first principle”.   So we have to understand the technology in order to accurately assess which part of the chain might account for any difference we might hear.  How can we trust someone’s diagnosis when they misunderstand which component does what?  By way of example, you do not want me assessing that sound coming from your Porsche’s engine.  Trust me!
 

Additionally, aural memory really sucks.  So you have to do some form of an A/B comparison.  (I’m not saying double blinds are necessary, btw.). And good A/B comparisons involve hard work.  I for one hate doing them, because for me it squeezes all the joy out of the hobby.   So I only do them for very specific objectives (e.g., comparing DACs, testing streamers, final choices on speakers, etc.).  But if someone makes assertions about differences in sound without a pretty serious attempt at a relatively rigorous A/B approach, their views are immediately severely discounted by me.  

In one of my earlier posts here, I gave a list of examples of threads where people were initially sure that their new streamer had made a huge difference, but when the actual specifics were unpacked the truth was obviously very different from what they claimed.  That’s about 6 examples in a total of about 10ish threads on the topic I’ve bothered to involve myself in.  And on most of the others, the OP was so dedicated to his “truth” that I just didn’t want to be attacked by the streamer jackals for questioning the dude’s experience.  Not worth it.  

In my pre-retirement career, I was very successful precisely because I brought a very high level of analytical objectivity to sometimes deeply divisive topics.  My mantra was always “do the work”, and it still is.  I don’t take shortcuts, and I try very hard not embed hidden assumptions in my views.  And that’s the approach I’ve taken as it relates to the topic of streamers.  

Long answer (again), to a simple question.  Sorry.

@kckrs 

Cool!  Let us know how it goes.  What’s the ETA?

@hjdca 

pretty system.  what are your speakers?