PREAMPLIFIER UPGRADE QUESTION

I second the recommendation for BAT. Amazing sound, built like a tank, and great customer service.

Thank you for al your responses. I have narrowed down my preamp choices to the Bryston BP-19 and the Rogue RP-9. My dealer sells both and I am looking hear them together. The rest of my system consists of a Bryston 4b-3 cubed power amp, Chord q test dac, Lumen U2-mini streamer and a pair of Martin Logan Impression 9 loudspeakers. My preamp is the Rogue RP-1 (entry level)  Will either of the 2 preamps that I am considering be a substantial improvement over the Rogue RP-1. I am seeking a substantial improvement due to the high cost of the remaining 2 preamps. I am sure that there may be better preamps out there that my dealer does not carry, but I wish to continue working with him because his advice, service and integrity is a tough combination to find.

@kjl1065 If you are planning a balanced line preamp, its a good idea to ask if the balanced preamp supports the balanced standard, AES48. The reason this is important is the balanced line system has several goals amoung which are elimination of ground loops and elimination of interconnect cable artifact. For the latter, if you've ever auditioned cables and heard a difference, that is what I'm talking about. Imagine not having to worry about cables again...

These two benefits are lost if the balanced line standard is not supported by the preamp. Most balanced preamps I've seen don't support it; I think the reason is to reduce cost, or else the manufacturer may not be aware that there is a standard.

Great you're using a dealer, but isn't part of that service being able to have a home demo?  You're looking at a pretty good chunk of change, no?

I've reviewed this thread three times now and lean quite a bit to that Rogue matching nicely with that cube. Regards, Scott

A vote for the RP-9 here. I find it so quiet and smooth. Very pleasing to my ear, especially with my warmish McIntosh solid state amplifiers, now paired with my Rogue ST-100. It has the tubes and features I find useful, balance adjustable via remote, processor loop, also controllable from the remote, and even Home Theater bypass, which I’m not currently using, but a nice to have. Display can also be controlled via remote.
I applaud your decision to work with a dealer, I think they bring more value to your system than any single component. 

@kjl1065 

Your preamp, located between the source and the power amp plays two important roles in the audio setup - source selection and volume control, and should do without adding tonal colorations so "clarity and linearity" are the key to be a top notch preamp. If you have some knowledge of analog circuits and basic technical skills you can buy a used preamp such as Accuphase Esoteric (balanced inputs and outputs a must) on ebay and replace the volume potentiometer with a new Alpha or Allnic motorized pot (size of a soda can). Probably the preamp is the brain of your audio system. Or you can simply bypass it to connect the DAC directly into the power amp if your DAC has a volume control and digital inputs.

The only problem with the Conrad Johnson ET-6SE is the fact that there is not balance controls where I can control left and right speaker volume. This is made necessary due to my seating arrangement.

Gentlemen,

We saw the mentions of our preamps here, and the critique of our website, backertlabs.com.  
We were confused at first, because we thought it was fine… Then we accessed it on a mobile phone.

We can now say in response to those comments, we are in violent agreement!

We just simplified the website.

Hope that’s better.

Keep on listening…. Andy

Assuming that you are referring to LEFT and RIGHT balance levels. I had the same issue with my Holo Serene preamp. I wanted it in my office where I sit off centre and really need balance to make it perfect. My Benchmark LA4 (now HPA4) preamp had the analog balance control and thus worked better than the Serene in the office. However, for esthetic reasons I wanted the Serene in the office and the HPA4 in the Livingroom (no balance control needed there).

I solved this issue with the Serene in my office using the following approach:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

The result of this was even better than the analog balance control of the HPA4. The Serene sounds perfect now with the settings described in my link. Nothing is compromised with the approach I used.

There are a lot of suggestions made on this thread for preamps that could not only save you money but also get you better sound. You can learn a lot about the sound of any preamp from reviews and posts in places like this. You need to first figure out what sound you are after.

Your Bryston 4B3 is supposed to be slightly warm sounding. For my tastes adding a warm-ish preamp is too mushy with the 4B3. I go with something more neutral. Maybe your Bryston BP-19 choice would be what I would choose. However, I had a Bryston BP-20 preamp years ago and it is nowhere in the class of the neutral LA4 / HPA4 or Serene preamps.

Thank you all for your kind and instructive responses. My choice is between preamplifiers as follows: Conrad Johnson:ET6 SE, Rogue Audio RP-9 and Bryston BP-19. Just purchased the Bryston 4B3 cubed power amplifier. The reason that I am limiting my future purchase to the three listed is because my dealer is a representative of the three above listed. He represents others as well, but they are not within my budget. In any case the dealer's knowledge and service is excellent and would like to continue working with him. The problem with the Conrad Johnson is that it does not have a balance control which I require. My current Rogue Audio RP-1 has one and I find it essential. 

Don't leave out the Wyred4Sound STP-SE. It has the unique properties of both passive and non-passive architecture. Very neutral without sounding dead.

Most posts here recomend the device they own and listen at home. That's a good thing because they love what they heare. Ultimately, that is also your goal.
My recomendation for you: Ask your Conrad Johnson dealer for a demo or better if he could lend you a ET6SE for a month or so. I bet you will refuse to return the device. All combination tube preamp combined with a solid state amp I've heard did sounded exeptionell. Allways better than cominations like tube/tube or solid state/solid sate.

I am a beleaver in a tube preamp and ss amps. None of your choices would be on my list because I like everything to match (I am weird like that). Good luck with your decision!

You’ve got great speakers. But without question you need a tube preamplifier!

If you want a wide open sound, Ayre uses ZERO feedback, fully balanced and can be found for very reasonable prices used. I started with a KX-5 Twenty used and liked it so much I upgraded to a KX-R Twenty used. Their products are so well designed that they are top notch for 20-30 years while others "catch up." Happy listening!

I should also clarify a couple of things: I eliminated the BAT VK-80 because it was $10,000 and my budget was around $7,500 or less, though my friend Patrick did buy it and is in love with it

Ask for discounts (I would have been able to get 15% or so discounts on the BAT and Backert Labs by comparing dealers...and just asking)

The Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven preamp is sold by Spatial Audio. Hand made and point to point wired, using only the highest quality components available

The Aric Audio gear is customizable, my Motherlode XL has NOS tubes, Khozmo remote, and upgraded caps on mine....some of which are now standard on all Motherlode XLs. Aric's gear is also point to point wired, not a single circuit board anywhere, and using the very best components available.

kjl1065

I went through the same process in January/February before buying my new preamp. Over two weeks I listened to a bunch of preamps from some of the above recommended companies, either on friends systems and even traveling several hundred miles in some cases to dealers. I tried to keep things as fair as possible, but some variables were there: different speakers, different amps.....but some cases were like for like. I must also mention that I am convinced that a preamp should be tube based.

My thoughts that I posted back in February are here 

For a synopsis, I eliminated the Rogue RP-7/RP-9, Backert Labs standard Rhumba, ARC 5SE, Atma-Sphere MP3, and a couple of others; because their sound (while excellent) were just not up to some others. I eliminated the Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven preamp because it was not in production yet when I purchased my preamp.

The best of the lot were the BAT VK-80 preamp fully balanced, Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4 (much closer to the flagship Rhythm than the base Rhumba and fully balanced), and Aric Audio Motherlode (non the balanced XL version). I ended up purchasing an Aric Audio Motherlode XL (fully balanced) preamp; and I could not be happier with my decision....it is the best preamp I have ever heard; period and exclamation point.

I will say that if I had not heard my Motherlode XL, I would have been THRILLED with either the BAT VK80 or Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme 1.4. They are amazing.

Here are my recommendations with 4 months of experience later (or rather if I had to do it again), and having listened to a couple more preamps. Before buying I would HIGHLY recommend reaching out to the designers to have a conversation: Aric Audio Motherlode XL (Aric Kimball), BAT VK-80 (Victor Khomenko), Backert Labs Rhumba Extreme (Bob Backert), Don Sachs/Lynn Olson Raven (Either Don or Lynn), Supratek various balanced preamps (Mick Maloney). I have spoken with all of them, and give freely of their time.

Great luck on your decision

I like Bryston.  I only have one of their streamers that has been discontinued but they have still provided support for it and it sounds great as a ROON endpoint and standalone.  That kind of effort is hard to find that in this industry.  You would expect synergy with their pre eh?

Having said that I like Tube pre with SS/AB/Switch amps.  I remember one of the most impressive pieces I heard back years ago at RMAF was an Octave integrated with a set of Dynaudio speakers.   Modest setup relative to others at the show but impressive.   Their HP SE series of Pre might be worth investigating.    I been lusting for one ever since that show :) 

These Backertlabs preamps look great. The website however is probably a contender for the #2 spot of the worst audio websites ever designed. Just amazingly bad. 

Audio GD HE-1 XLR 10 tube Pre from Underwood HI FI....It has it's own Regenerative Power Supply that makes it's own power from the outlet...none of the units you list have this technology...Game changer for 2 channel SQ.........$5,000   Read the Part Time Audiophile review.....The best under $12K he's ever reviewed !

I think the Rogue is fully balanced, is it not?

As an interim step, if not already, you could upgrade the tubes in the RP-1. I put a set of Mullards in from Andy’s tube services and have really enjoyed them. Enjoy those while you continue research on high grade pre

Also you might try the PS Audio BHK Pre.  That has 12AU7 valved input stage. And you can possibly trial that unit and they give you a decent amount for the Rogue.  Although you proly do better selling RP-1 on your own as people snap those up pretty quickly. 

@kjl1065 - I recommend the Linear Tube Audio Microzotl preamp with the upgrade.  It’s below your budget and sounds so good it’s the one component I wouldn’t consider parting with. When I put it in it was the single biggest upgrade I’ve made. 

@soix, Rhumba 1.3 has 1 fully balanced XLR input and output, while 1.4 has 2 each.

I just realized the newest Rhumba 1.4 is fully balanced and at $5k with a 14-day trial period that’d be where I’d go first. 

+6 on the Backert Labs Rhumba.

I have owned the Rhumba 1.3 since 2018. Roll some NOS tubes and your will be amazed by the sound quality. NOS Mazdas are what I sincerely recommend.

Damn! I had to edit my post just to correct the "number". 5 people above me al;ready recommended it.

Backert labs. I own the Rhythm 1.4 . You can roll tubes and tune it in to your system. You very seldom see a Backert Labs on the pre-owned market. 

I highly recommend the ModWright PH 9.0 and if you can add the X version (Balanced output) it is even better. There is also a T upgrade (Tube rectification power supply). This is a phono stage that will compete with those in the 10K range. Good luck finding the right phono stage. 

As per some that have suggested something that does not need be pricey to be excellent, what you’re describing really does fall into the camp of SPL. Yes, I’m a fanboy of SPL. But the Elector pre had literally transformed my system. The newest iteration has additional outputs for both balanced and single ended, but it is a balanced preamp with exceptionally low noise floor and true to source. Also with an astounding stage, placement accuracy, realism and clarity. Very little coloration, but still maintains a bit of tube like shimmer. 
 

Many have used it with much, much more expensive systems without it becoming in any way a bottleneck or mismatch. 
 

If you love your Martin Logans look for something that plays well with your electrostatic speakers.  I had McIntosh and it did not work out very well sent direction I had to go in a differ 

Good Luck and let us know how you make out!

I bought a used Ayre Acoustics KX-5 Twenty preamp for just over $5K.  Fully balanced and dead quiet, it is very dynamic at lower volume settings.  I can't believe what I was missing before.  I've got it paired up with a Parasound JC-5 amplifier pushing a pair of Infinity Kappa 9's.  There's a lot out there to choose from because many people are dumping expensive preamps in favor of bypassing and using a DAC with a volume control.  I'm not in that camp, get a good preamp like the KX-5 Twenty you won't regret it. 

Buy the Zesto.... you can thank me later !

Great selections but I'm biased to the Balanced Audio Technology sound. Have a look at BAT VK-80 over at music direct. It hits the budget you gave

My choice would be an Aesthetix, Calypso. Newest version at $6K is super quiet, fully balanced and with just (4) small signal tubes, a rollers delight. We all recommend what we use or have experience with and the Calypso, for the money, was a clear winner for me. 

I strongly second the recommendation to reach out to Aric at Aric Audio. His tube gear, and the Motherlode preamp in particular, are world-class and a fantastic value. 

You can get a used Townshend Allegri Passive preamp for $7500 on US Audio Mart. 

The Rhumba 1.4 is $5000 so under the OP's budget. I expect it is upgradeable in the future if needed or wanted.  

we agree with oddiofyl,the Zesto Leto  ultimate, is the way to go it is a fully balanced design, so it will be great with your Bryston.

it is neutral with a hint of tube warmth,

it has a cool tone control to allow or system tuning.

it is holographic with great bass and dynamics.

Dave and Troy

Audio Intellect NJ

former Zesto dealer

Try the Benchmark LA4 preamp. great reviews and I own 1 also.

You might also want to try the Denafrips Hades which I also own and they both sound great, both use relay based volume controls which is the way to go.

I've had both CJ and Bryston equipment. Both were excellent!

Bryston has exceptional build quality and clarity/transparency of sound, CJ sounds warm). I would prick my preference from these. 

As for the suggestion of Boulder, I would pick Bryston over Boulder... Which I did.

I might suggest an old school cj preamp, I haven't heard their latest.  Very juicy, seductive and great sound stage.  Not neutral.

I had a Rogue RP-5 preamp that I loved and used a set of Mullard tubes in the line stage. I had it for 3 years until I went with a McIntosh based system.

@audphile1 My suggestion to be made, and now one that is given a substantiation by your own report, is to seek out Valve Exchanges that are recognised to work very well with the RC1 Schematic.

I have had a experience on a few occasions doing this, and the end result was remarkable.

A $1600 Amp + $400ish in Exchange Valves, might just convince the Amp is worthwhile staying on with and keep $7K in reserve. 

@bgross 

i doubt it. I was just answering for the OP desires for transparency and quiet. Maybe he could find a used one close to his price. 
 

happy listening 

I had RP-1 with ST-100 driving Martin Logan Montis.
Rogue is great value and RP-1 is excellent. Not familiar with the sound of the bryston amp and how it pairs with the ML speakers but I would find a Bryston preamp on a used market and try it. Synergy is key in a system set up. 
Buy used and try. 
 

One other recommendation if I may add…Brimar CV4003 tubes from Upscale Audio took my RP-1 preamp to a new level. Cheap upgrade before you splurge on a new preamp in case you’re using the stock JJs in RP-1. 

Thanks for the additional info — most helpful.  I was gonna recommend the Backert Rhumba Extreme as well, but the current version is $8500 so a bit above the OP’s budget unless buying used.  Personally, of your choices I’d choose the Rogue over the Bryston because you may find it tough going from tubes to solid state, and the RP9 is certainly no slouch.  I had a Bryston BP6 for a while and it was a great pre but would not consider it to have that “tube magic”.  Not to complicate things further (actually that’s exactly what I’m doing here), but in your price range I’d absolutely have both the Spatial Audio Raven and Aric Audio Motherload XL high on my radar and would choose either over the Rogue, but that’s me.  Just my $0.02 FWIW, and best of luck.

+2 Backert Labs. I have a Rhumba Extreme 1.3 set up with a Pass XA30.8. I really enjoy the combination.