Nice system! I think your best bet is to add a Roon endpoint between the Mac and the May. This isolates a lot of the noisy processing required by Roon. You will get a lot of recommendations for endpoints, I have had good luck with Innuos. Check out the used market, you can get some good deals. And be sure to allow in your budget a good digital cable connection between the endpoint and your DAC.
Options to improve digital sound
Hi,
I am looking for some, hopefully, simple advice. My current digital system is an M4 MacMini feeding a Holo May DAC into a PrimaLuna 400 preamp and amp. My speakers are Devore Gibbon X. I primarily listen to downloaded and ripped files with Roon and Audirvana. I also use Qobuz, but not as often.
The sound quality is good, but I feel like it could be improved. The options I'm considering are a Small Green Computer SonicTransporter i7 to replace the Mini, or a SGC UltraRendu to put between the Mini and the Holo May.
Which option would be better? Is there a better option? I'd like to keep the cost under around $2500.
Thanks
I went through three Mac minis with various diy modifications, the two most effective were mod to operating systems, shutting down unneeded services, the other was adding LPS with Uptone JS-2 and MMK. So this one route and you'd have a pretty nice streamer at this point.
I like the idea of adding an Endpoint, Roon sound quality improved running Core on one streamer, Endpoint on something like the UltraRendu. I use the OpticalRendu finding optical conversion worthwhile. The problem with this is you won't hear the full potential of the Endpoint with your mini in present state.
So, if not into diy mods with present mini, and I don't really like your mini as I believe it has soldered RAM (RAM upgrades another worthwhile mod), I'd suggest a new streamer The SonicTransporter I7 is a very nice streamer at that price point, remember you'll also have to invest in a 12v 4 amp linear power supply to power it. SGC has their own, the other options I'd suggest are likely over your budget. And then sometime in the future you could add something like Ultra or OpticalRendu for even further improvements.
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Great system. You are short on one aspect. A high quality streamer. It should be at the same level as your DAC, Preamp or amp. Given your system I would recommend an Aurender N200 or Aurender N250. These would provide the level of performance commiserate with the rest of your system. I spent several years refusing to invest in a good streamer because it was basically the same thing as my MacBook or PC. That was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made in audio. I completely wasted the time with grossly inferior sound quality. The sound quality of your CDs should equal the sound quality of stored files and streaming. However, Qobuz should sound better with their one half million high resolution albums. A good streamer must be built with the same dedication to detail, and quality that any other audio component has to be. It needs an outstanding power supply, internally and externally shielding from noise, vibration... etc. This requires lots of design time, high quality parts and expertise. Aurender makes some of the best streamers... it is all they do. After owning a dozen other streamers over twenty years, I own two Aurender. My vinyl playback, CD, stored files and streaming all sound the same, the best sound I have every had. You can see my virtual systems under my user ID. |
@tony1954 , good point. you have some decent equipment going into the game. My 2 cents- What is the input cabling? How does it arrive at the DAC? I second getting a good streamer. Aurrender and Innuos are two very good brands. I have no experience with Apple products, but from a short Googling, it looks like the Mini Mac isn't expressly designed for music reproduction, leading me to suggest products made for the task. Though some might disagree, I believe that there is a difference in how digital audio products are made vs. generic. HTH Bob |
There seems to be a definite consensus that a dedicated streamer is preferred over the Mini connecting to a UltraRendu and then the DAC. One reason I am looking at the SonicTransporter is that it can be a Roon server. I think Audirvana can also be loaded onto it. That is not the case with Aurender and I'm not sure about Innous. I could stretch the budget by $1000 or so. Any other suggestions for a dedicated streamer, preferably one where Roon can be loaded as a server (as opposed to just an end point) are appreciated. |
mac mini is definitely not the best streamer. |
I agree with the consensus. Keep the Mac Mini, it's a very handy thing to have in the system, but get a streamer or renderer. I'd recommend one with an I2S output for the Holo. Any quality renderer will have options for running Roon or Audirvana. In fact Audirvana now makes an embedded Linux version that operates directly from the streamer and can be controlled from a portable device with their remote app. If you like Audirvana, look for a device that encorporates this. You can check their web page for cooperating manufacturers. The Holo Red is a very affordable streamer that would be a great match for the May. |
1) If anyone knew how to make no veil sound d player, he won’t be quiet about it and we’ll be hearing his music. What stops him come out in this time and age? 2) I’ve been exhibiting my system in audio shows last >10 years. I went all other rooms to check out sounds. All they have thick veils. And all their sounds match with Youtube videos. Microphones don’t lie. YT videos are very accurate. 3) Hottest speaker now is Stenheim. In below, people voices are clean/normal w/out the veil. When the music starts, the veil masks music behind it (or bright glare if you use immersive technique). Primare, Stenheim and AntiCables Compare with no veil system. Chantal - Besame mucho 4) Please post the link if anyone finds no veil sound system. Alex/Wavetouch audio
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Definitely a good streamer is the answer. @mihorn are you OK? |
@walt8489 I second all of those that suggest utilizing a quality Roon endpoint as opposed to streaming directly from your Mac Mini functioning as Server/Streamer. In my case Roon Core is a Roon Nucleus and principal endpoint is a Rose RS130 feeding a Rockna Wavelight via Tubulus Concentus I2S. For Rockna Wavelight, by design I2S all things being equal is the best input. However, you have a Holo May, and as I understand it, the Holo May folks consider USB to be the best input (good friend has Holo May, and this is what Holo Audio folks told him). So I suggest looking for quality endpoint that features USB output together with a quality USB cable. |
My 2c: Do the Sonic Transport , great Roon Core host. Then pair that with the Bryston BDP-3 on here for $1.5K. The BDP makes a great Roon endpoint. You can have your attached storage off the ST and have it integrated with ROON or Hang it off the BDP which will sound great. BDP interface is Spartan but it works for file storage. The Switch from ROON endpoint to direct on the BDP is also a snap. Looks like you can match up the AES output/input as well which should be another +
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and a Aurender or InnuOs product is the best way for streaming. |
The rendu nothing special go for a decent streamer innuous pulse with linear power supplies , at your router that cheap $3 wall wart power supply just adding noise. small green computer 8 amp 12 v , look on your router most are 12 v now $299 LPS power supply , what is your Ethernet switch. LHY 6 best bang for the $$ and what are you Ethernet cables ,and usb ? That too a big influence .I recently bought a Stealth usb cable , a excellent product , I bought their latest Tunable to adjust more or less bass Anthony at Perrotta consultants gives good pricing and service that’s where I bought both the innuos streamer and Stealth , ethernet your end point most important quality does count for sure in digital cables too. |
Adding a quality Endpoint to a stock mini is not the way to go, I know from direct experience. Your Core is as important as the Endpoint. Now a highly modded mini can be a pretty good streamer on it's own, again I know from direct experience, but this requires a good deal of diy mods.
The OP's best route at this point is to go with a single box streamer, decide which music player to go with, Audirvana, Roon or proprietary, this will have great influence on which streamer to go with. If going with Roon, the SonicTransporter is very nice in the price range OP talking about, the I9 with optical is very, very nice if willing to pay the extra cost. And with Roon you add the second streamer sometime down the road, the OpticalRendu great match for Sonictransporters. If choosing to go with proprietary music players the Innuos and Aurender likely best way to go. |
how so? I’m just curious what your experience was. In my mind i can’t figure out why a Roon core would make a difference. Let’s take my use case for example… I am using a Mac Mini as a Roon core (for years now). It is fed by one of the EERO mesh network nodes in a completely different room. I then have another EERO mesh node in a vicinity of my system feeding the streamer. Also, a one box solution of Roon Core Streamer at the level of OP’s budget will most likely be a side step. You get all the Roon Core related processing which at times is CPU and memory intensive and at the cost of OP’s budget will be a compromise in my opinion as opposed to getting a dedicated Roon ready streamer. All in one no compromise solution starts at 4-5x the budget….i.e. Grimm MU1 used or MU2. But that’s just my take on it. But please let me know how the core impacts the sound quality. |
Mac fanboy, have all their products. However, for music, I do not use any Mac gear, except my iPhone to control my streamer. Going to suggest, removing the Mini, replacing it with a quality streamer. Don't change anything else yet. Just get used to the streamer, then go down the upgrade path. I had my old ipod (yup, still got one) plugged into my system for a while. It sounded flat, hollow, and compressed. |
@audphile1 Roon Core is where vast majority of processing goes on, the relatively complex interface of Roon is processor intensive. CPU's working at relatively high rates creates more noise and higher latency, both are enemies of resolution Higher latency also means greater chance for timing issues. The reason so many find Roon inferior to the proprietary music players is those music players have been designed as to require far less processing and deliver lower latency, result is both increased resolution and more analog like sound quality.
As for empirical evidence, I've had a variety of Endpoint and Core streamers, the Cores have a far greater impact on sound quality vs the Endpoints. I'd suggest its both the processor, latency issue, and the fact Core sits upstream of Endpoint. Contrary to certain popular opinion, noise introduced anywhere in the streaming chain cannot be eliminated within the offending component by components further down the chain, no getting back resolution, latency lost. |
Thanks @sns I do realize there’s a lot of irrelevant tasks in the mac mini that can potentially impact sound quality by negatively impacting roon related processing. I’ll be trying a dedicated core soon. Can’t wait to see how it impacts the sound hopefully it’ll be a positive difference. |
I'm certainly not the first to say this, and surely won't be the last, but the streamer is right up there with the dac in order of importance in streaming chain. I don't care about all the signal and network filters, audiophile switches, lps, etc., these all just band aids if streamer and dac not optimal, the full potential of these devices will only be realized after attending to dac and streamer.
I'd also add a totally maxed out mac mini can be a very nice streamer at a certain price point. I learned a lot from incrementally optimizing my mac minis. Optimizing operating systems, quality RAM and linear power supplies are critical for streamers, powerful processor for low latency next. The proof of need for a powerful processor with Roon was crystal clear when I was running both Roon and Audirvana with the minis, Audirvana always had superior sound quality to Roon with all three of my minis. It wasn't until I obtained my present custom build server (I9 Intel processor, Euphony operating system, Optane industrial RAM, powered by $6k JCAT Optimo ATX lps) that Roon sq surpassed Audirvana, adding the second streamer as an Endpoint/renderer added that much more. Roon is capable of sq equal to or better than very nice vinyl setups, seemingly requires more extensive optimizations than streamers with proprietary music player apps. I should add Roon sq superior to the Euphony Stylus proprietary music player app with my setup, very few Euphony Stylus users agree with this.
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Agreed 100%. Don’t go down the rabbit hole with tweaks. You can’t polish the turd. |
Hi. A. Reduce Electrical or digital noise: Major factor! (1) By decoupling electrical connections: For example, use UTP (unshielded) Ethernet cable. Create fiber optic connections/ galvanic separation links. Regardless of what some may say, in hifi, everything matters at some point and to some degree. Start with the very first step in the digital chain. For me, I started with coax cable feeding into my house from my ISP (Xfinity). I considered every step the data traveled to reach my Dac. I then looked for every opportunity to reduce or eliminate line noise entry points. I suggest, start with the noisiest device or section of your network/ data chain and work towards your DAC. Go slowly, take your time to learn as much as you can about each section and find a better solution. You will be absolutely amazed how much this can improve SQ. (And it doesn’t need to cost a lot) I have a basic Roon Nucleus, but my digital network from coax cable drop outside to my DAC is well thought out and designed to reduce noise. FYI, I also have the Gibbon X speakers :) best to you
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First going to start by saying everything you know and love about analog signal transfer, do not transfer to digital. a packet is so different over a analog signal, they share almost nothing. @sns Going to buck this trend. Streaming is NOT CPU intensive, it's all network speed, and computer IOPS. Roon may be CPU intensive, when indexing, sorting playlist, getting artwork, etc, but all those task are RAM and disk intensive. Latency is only in networks, not in the computer. What happens inside the computer is cacheing, and processes start to get stalled waiting for CPU time. Nothing inside the Roon should make it run completely run out of resources. What is happening on the app on your tablet is not the same as what is happening inside the Roon core, or your streamer. The streamer doesn't care about anything but getting the stream, it doesn't concern it's self with anything else. CPU's do not create noise, noise on the processing side are not thing. What does create noise are spinning disk, fans, and power supplies. A CPU will not introduce noise when running at 100% anymore then when running 25%. That is simply not a thing. Unless something is wrong with the end to end system if your stream is 16/44, it will be 16/44 at the DAC. Nothing in the chain will drop the 16/44 bit rate unless there are issues. It takes around 5mb of bandwidth for 16/44. When you do have issues, the streams does not degrade, the song just stops playing. For everyone, who is so worried about getting the cleanest stream to the DAC, if you have the rented modem it is the biggest pile of poo in your entire chain. If it's Xfinity, you are also sharing it will everyone in WiFi range. For networks, you want AS FEW HOPS as you can get. You also want AS FEW conversions along the way. Adding several switches, and swapping from coax, e-net, fiber, and so on is not a good thing. All have their places and uses. Get a good commercial switch, set it up properly and you should be good. If you are so worried about it, do some QoS, port mapping, network segmantation.... |
@mswale thank you for the fact-checking and sanity check 🙏 |
So, Roon not cpu intensive. Many monitor their cpu utilization in real time and report relatively high utilization with Roon vs other music players. Also I directly monitor cpu usage via Euphony OS, I can do this by direct connection to streamer or via tablet. I'm monitoring both temps and utilization in real time.
As for digital packets not impacting analog signal, laughable. Streamers don't affect latency, nonsense.
This all a bunch of nonsense. |
@mswale Appreciate the detailed information. The discussion of data network noise and implementation is not a very exciting topic and clearly full of debate. I think, It should be important to those looking to improve their digital music experience, in addition to (upgrading streaming devices).
Whether CPU processing noise is relevant, I don’t know. I feel electric noise emitted by a single poorly designed network device or a summation of network devices is the main issue. I don’t think, in general, having fewer network devices is better or best. Logically to me, simply decoupling and/ or reducing electrical network noise is paramount. So whatever it takes to achieve lower noise needs to be done. Of course starting with a device that is designed to limit unwanted noise is key. I respectfully disagree with @mswale that the use of fiber optic is not good, generally speaking. Used wisely, fiber optic connections can be an effective tool at separating/ isolating noisy devices from the DAC. (this topic has been discussed over and over on AG). Sorry to bringing it up again.
I have two SoTm network switches with built-in SFP (fiber optics). The two switches are connected by signal mode fiber. My Dac is connected to switch #2, my Roon Nucleus is connected to switch #1, resulting in isolation between streamer and DAC. Each switch has a dedicated external power supply. Noticeable improvement to SQ. Point being, it was important for me to dial in my network before upgrading my streamer. Hopefully my thoughts and experiences are contributing to this thread. Cheers
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@mswale can you give us some more detail on the “hop” and conversion points? As long as the information packets are getting through undamaged, do the number of hops matter? Or is it the case that there’s a risk of packet loss at each hop? Or is something else going on? thanks. |
What commercial switch do you recommend @mswale Also, processors might not produce physical noise but they emit EMI. The heat from a processor inside the enclosure as well as the emitted EMI impacts other components an in turn adds noise to the output digital signal. Yes for data transfer it doesn’t matter. But it does impact streaming music. |
The CPU utilization of Roon is quite variable, and relative. The biggest challenges for Roon CPU are use of DSP and format conversion such as DSD to PCM or vice versa. It's also relative to the CPU that you have. Very low power CPUs as used in micro PC's may be more stressed more easily. Also, because DSP happens on the server, if you have multiple music streams going on at once this can also increase CPU usage. Having said all of that, the CPU usage I observe is generally very low. Not sure what this has to do with anything though, so long as the stream doesn't break up this should not affect playback quality as the Roon endpoints keep a significant buffer. |
Taking what I said out of context. Never said Roon was not, said streaming is not. What ever Roon is doing is in addition to the music stream. Chances are they are separate processes/streams. Also never said, packets will not affect the analog signal. What I said was Analog and digital are very different, same rules do not apply. If you streamer is in fact introducing network latency, then your streamer needs to be replaced, or upgraded. A streamer should never have network latency. If I can stream 4k video with Dobly Atmos, you should be able to stream Hi-rez audio. Something else is going on if you are having latency issues.
Again, digital domain is vastly different over analog signals. CPU's will not put any noise in the digital packet. Digital packets do not have a concept of noise. Never in my 30+ IT career has any network or computer issue been related to noise. Even in factories where computers are controling manufacturing robots. Not sure where "decoupling" networks came from. Outside of Audio, this is not a thing. Never said fiber is not good, in fact it is the "best" network transfer method. Would guess around 80% of networks are fiber. Fiber is also the most expensive! If you have any run over 100ft fiber will work better. If you can end to fiber, I would. But when a normal fiber cable with out SFP's are $300, then another $300 for each end SFP it gets expensive quickly. Air-gaped networks are a thing, but is all about security, and isolation. Maybe someone needs to do some packet captures, read the packets, also put an oscilloscope on the cables to see if there is any "noise" on the cable. Not saying it's not there, that it's not a packet transfer issue. If this was a thing, research labs, hospitals, manufacture, would all try to fix that issue.
Cisco, Brodcom, Brocade, Ubiquiti, HP, but if you don't know how to configure them, they are useless. A "good" 8 port switch will start around $800. Everything that has current flowing through it will have EMI, it's a byproduct. CPU's use such low voltages, that it will not have an effect on things around it. What can make a difference are the computers fans kicking in, they produce a ton of noise, both physical and electrical. But not sure this is affect processing, or affect anything the CPU is processing. You are not outputting a digital signal, you are outputting digital packets. The packets contain the data for the DAC to produce a audio signal. The DAC is in fact a computer. Home mesh networks are crap. Really wish they would not sell them. Almost all would be better off with a repeater in a couple spots over cheap mesh. To do mesh properly you need really good equipment with a base-station that has all the algorithm to handle hand-off, priority, and switching. Talk about noise, if you use a WiFi signal meter around the lower end stuff, it's just not good. On WiFi everyone wants isolation, well, if you are using WiFi, you are isolating your device. Direct connecting is almost always best. @erik_squires think he is nailing it. |
@mswale I feel it’s important I clarify what I mean by “decoupling” with regards to hifi music streaming. For Standard data networks or WiFi, this does not matter. I view the chain of devices + cabling that run from outside your home to your Dac as typically connected via a copper wire (especially shield cable). That wire carries data packets AND some amount of electrical line noise derived from EMI/ RFI and/ or noisy devices. Decoupling, to me, simply means breaking the copper wire transmission connection of electrical “noise” carried from device to device. This is when galvanic separation/ fiber optic comes into play. Let be clear, electrical noise is not imbedded in the data packets, it’s the potential hum or ground loop electrically charged through the copper wire. The less noise or electrical hash that enters your DAC the better. Less noise contributes to darker background/ lower noise floor. I hope this helps. |
Long time Audirvāna user on a PC usb out to Pontus 2 DAC Pontus DAC was a big upgrade for me by the way Audirvāna by passes all the computers audio systems and talk directly to you DAC via usb i have now replaced the Pc and Audirvāna for a Raspberry Pi with Moode Audio software powered by a PurePi 2 with signal out via a Pi2aes hat providing I2s out put this system is maxed out at 24/192 all my file are 16/44.1 and passed via I 2s to Pontus 2 DAC at the same level this combination is significantly better than Audirvāna and PC
i still prefer the Audirvāna interface but more than happy to give it up for the upgrade in sound
The rest of my system includes a Schitt Audio Freya S ( non tube ) preamp out to a Decware Torii Jr amp the to La Scalas
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I just recently(past week) changed out my Apple to the very same SonicTransporter I7 Gen 3 Server you are thinking about. I currently use a Sonora Signature Rendu SE streamer with the Sonore opticalModule Deluxe to convert Ethernet to a fiber optical signal. The rest of my setup is a Herron 360 Reference ESP Preamp, Herron VTPH-2a, Tron 211 amplifier, EMT 948 and a Wavelength Audio Cosecant N2 Dac. Immediately upgrade in sound and not a small one going from the Mac to the SonicTransporter I7. I highly recommend it. Good Luck with your search. P.S. I use Roon and Audirvāna with a 30TB NAS and 31k plus albums with around 400k tracks on it…you need a server that can handle that size of music files. I have 32gb of RAM in my SonicTransporter |
uhm, the only thing that will improve digital sound is from the DAC onwards to the speakers. digital music is file based; nothing before the DAC will affect the sound (how could it without corrupting the data). are you using Dirac Live? that is the exception to my previous statements, and it does change the digital information, but in a positive way. improving the acoustic treatment of your listening area is another option. |
I am not able to recommend a device to purchase as I am not familiar with this type of Source. I do have an interest in this Source Type, and foresee one to be in use sometime in 2026, especially to be used in a system created for my Wife. The Source in the Link is one adopted for use by an individual who I know has done extensive research through owning and using Digital Sources, where CD, Ripped FLAC and and possibly WAV, Downloaded FLAC and Streamed Data are used as the Source Material to replay recorded music. This individual has made it known the device in the link has transformed them, all they thought they knew has been turned on its head and they are in a new chapter where the pages are blank and all experiences had are quite new and a betterment to their other experiences. A used device is closer to the $2.5K budget, but the investigation of what is on offer is worthwhile undertaking. https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650220466-teac-ud-701n-network-music-streamerstereo-preamp/ |
People pointing out lots of expensive options but dipping in can be inexpensive and far superior to a Mac Mini. You can test out a WiiM streamer. The Pro version allows an external 5v power supply. I’ve done that outputting to an RME ADI-2 via glass toslink (192K connection) with excellent results. Have also used a ethernet connection to the WiiM. Running Blue Jean ethernet cables, the only cable difference I’ve heard with fiber in-between from the router. Added two Cisco Meraki 8 port units and easily removed the internal power supply parts which are no longer needed. Ran one Blue Jean cable from the router via ethernet. Then another out with via fiber to another Cisco Meraki and then a short ethernet cable to the WiiM streamer. Qobuz connect can be run from a tablet, phone or computer of your choice. No direct connection, right from the Qobuz server to the router and to your system. Very impressive output and should be tried. Those who try this inexpensive options will be surprised at how little investment can make such an improvement. All less than the cost of a commercial "audio" network product.
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@mswale I am confused on how mesh is crap and a repeater is superior. I would think they operate on the same WiFi principle except with mesh you have a consistent SSID & handoff. Then if you have an Ethernet backbone and attach your streamer via Ethernet, a mesh would be vastly superior to repeaters. Am I missing something? |