No "Room Correction" Topic option. Why?
Built my own room years ago and one thing for sure, nobody can answer questions like you're asking. Not over the internet. Not without being there. Because there's far more to it than just sound. Its a room, in your existing home, with your existing structure and traffic flow and everything. Best you can do is read and learn all you can about various construction techniques then figure out for yourself what will work in your particular situation. One thing, I have no idea how you get 2 lines of 110 out of 220. No idea what you found but it doesn't work that way. You either move one wire over to neutral and have one 120V line, or what I would do, get a good quality step down transformer and run 240V in, 120V out to your system. That's what I have and it works great. Wouldn't recommend it if you didn't already have 240 but since you do https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Next, I hope you bought an exterior solid core door. Because normal inside doors are hollow and crap for sound. Solid core or bust. Also use weather stripping, just as you would an exterior door. This is easily your biggest most cost-effective improvement. Next is windows. You won't believe the noise comes in from windows. Absolutely will not believe. Curtains won't work. What you want are shutters. Will have to take more pics of my system so people can see what I did with the windows. 3/4" MDF shutters close over them most of the time. Stops 90% of the light and sound. Without messing up acoustics like curtains. Sheetrock, 5/8" costs almost nothing more than 1/2" yet stops sound almost twice as good. Then during construction be super careful to seal around all cracks and crevices especially outlets and light fixtures. The easiest route for sound going either way is holes like around a door, window, or outlet. Those four- door, shutters, sheetrock, gaps- are the end of the really highly cost effective construction techniques. They are just the beginning, but they are so dirt cheap you do them or regret it. Everything else from here costs a whole lot more, to the point you can easily get into six figures just on the room. But you didn't mention a budget so I'm just giving you the stuff anyone can and should do no matter what. |
millercarbon ... I have no idea how you get 2 lines of 110 out of 220 ...If you’re in the US, NEC allows a 240VAC line to be split into two 120VAC lines with a shared neutral. You can do this because the two lines are different phases. Each 120VAC line must be on its own breaker, and the pair of breakers need to be physically tied so that if one trips, so does the other. You’ll need to check whether your local code allows this use, but it’s likely that it does. |
The whole room matters, especially in non immediate reflection points. I'd talk to GIK who can give you great advice and products, but it depends really. If your whole room is well damped, rug over slate will work, but if the additional glass means you will be short of necessary absorption, go with carpet. Also, one overlooked area for absoprition is the floor between and behind the speakers. Damping this can often lead to a smoother sounding treble. |
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Chorus, It all depends on the room and the speakers. Carpet will absorb frequencies from about three hundred Hz up. Carpet will cut reflections of these frequencies. It will do nothing for deep bass. For point source speakers carpet or a large area rug are a good idea. For linear arrays it makes no difference. For subwoofers it makes no difference. Frankly, I would ignore the sound and do whatever you find aesthetically pleasing then deal with the sound afterwards which you will have to do anyway. Windows always resonate so I would certainly put drapes in front of the windows. I use digital room control and measure my speakers. The Right hand speaker is next to a window and it's upper mid range was considerably different because of the darn window. I put drapes up and there was still a difference but considerably less. |
Sorry, to be clear, what I meant to say was: The entire room contributes to the decay rates so in non-direct points, if you can't have enough absorption in one location you can mitigate it somewhat by adding elsewhere. For instance, if you have big glass doors on one side, adding more damping around the room is called for. |
Another fantastic example of the futility of trying to help someone with electricity. Inevitably people with some technical or code knowledge pop up and distract the poor interested party with a pointless journey through Wonderland. Keep the 240 and use a step down. This will be excellent, and extremely cost effective. Or use just one 120. Those are your options if you want good sound. Study my system, read my posts, not gonna keep repeating what people only argue with anyway. |
in 2004 i wrote an article on Positive Feedback online about building my room. it does address some of your concerns. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm i’m actually embarrassed to read some of what i wrote then, now 16 years later. i did not know then what i did not know. i have changed many things about my room since then, you can see it here. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 and the 3400+ posts attached to that room description does document many of my changes over the years. it was not a linear experience. but i enjoyed every minute of it, and still spend 30+ hours a week in my room. so my ROI is spectacular!!! know that building a room and then getting the maximum performance from it is more about you and learning than about gear or nails, sheet rock and power grids. best wishes with your room building process. |
Mike at least you can admit that a sign of emotional intelligence:-) I also have a 240 line split in two, easy and as the OP and others know easy to do and undo IF there is future desire to invest in a step down transformer. finally since we are on the subject of science based truth vs dusty old narrow experience, there are sources of excellent and effective acoustic curtains- just search on that subject line w Escondido, CA. In use at many mastering labs, recording studios ( ours included ), Kennedy Center, etc. pm me and I will walk you thru some low to no cost acoustical measurement tools to help you baseline and improve your room. Me personally I would put down a layer of sorbothane/cork w glue, paying close attention to stud sill plate ( wrap it up ! ) and then an engineered hardwood and then tune w area rugs, Labrador is an excellent absorber. best, cool post. |
Mike and All, Thank you for taking the time to educate me. I think for now I will go with carpet. I added more reflective surfaces with the 3 new 3x4 windows and the store door. I also removed a full sized slider and a 2nd door with 1/2 glass. I also goodwilled a huge credenza that was probably something of a diffuser. Mike-Looking thru your component list, can you tell me if the room correction equipment was a truly worthwhile move? My room is good with bass so I'm lucky. Thank you. |
Mike-Looking thru your component list, can you tell me if @Chorus when you use the term ’room correction equipment’ it’s unclear your intent. i view that term as some sort of DSP (digital signal processing) that adjusts your music to fit into the room acoustics. i don’t use that approach. my room is about being designed to be acoustically friendly with it’s shape, surfaces and method of construction. so no messing with the signal path. i keep my signal path all analog. i do have analog adjustments for my bass towers to optimize bass performance in room. to answer your question; yes for sure, i do think my efforts to optimize the music performance in my room by making the acoustical changes was worth while. part of those efforts is the balance between the carpet section for the floor, and the hardwood under the speaker end. i also filled in my windows with inserts. and these things are only briefly touching the surface of all the things i’ve done over my 16 years in the room. all that said; i think the most important tool to find musical harmony in any room is a musical reference in your head that you are striving for. or; delegate that role to someone you trust. it’s all about the room meeting your expectations. and......if you are not clear what you want.......drum roll please......then you have no business trying to build a dedicated room. how could you even know where you are going? find reproduced music that is doing what you want. get a solid memory of that, and then find that same type sound in your room. that is the proper way to judge results. listening. you might need to revisit that reference sound a couple of times to recalibrate your ears as time goes by as you are working toward that goal. everyone is different as to how easily they can retain their aural memory. and be prepared for the fact that as you evolve in your hifi hobby time and listen more your tastes and expectations will likely change, and what you expect from your room will evolve with you. and you will be able to make adjustments as you go along. measurements are useful for problem solving, but proof of concept is what you hear. |
I took one leg from my A/C and hooked it to a 20A GFCI outtet box. Plenty of power for a Pioneer pushing 3 pairs speakers in the shed, a homemade powered sub in the playhouse and a Traeger on the patio. Good thing I didn't have "no idea." I can offer no suggestions on building a room that sounds good to you except for to tame reflections. Too many other variables to recommend a floor surface but wood usually sounds better than tile to most ears... |
There has been solid science done on room size and dimension at the School of Acoustics at the University of Salford. They found that MOST rectangular rooms are poor, a quarter OK, and a few are good. Look up 'room ratios', but be prepared to design and build to tight tolerances. Also, you might want to build with Quietrock 545, a very thick and solid drywall. I also used a lot of elastomeric glue, M1 from Chemlink. Good luck! |
If you are building anyway, building for acoustics can make big differences. More than 8 ft ceilings and other dimensions is a start. Try books like this before you start.
https://smile.amazon.com/Handbook-Sound-Studio-Construction-Recording/dp/007177274X/ref=sr_1_38?dchild=1&keywords=building+a+home+studio&qid=1597839007&sr=8-38
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chorus, sounds like you have the bases covered in your project. I too have an exterior wall down to the studs that will be going back together in pretty short order, just need some electrical work, lighting etc. Covid has slowed the process. I will be soundproofing that wall because the A/C compressor is on the other side and I can (barely) hear it, very annoying. You may be interested in this YouTube vid "Green Glue vs Mass Loaded Vinyl": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmgAgFZomd8 To all: Does anyone have first hand experience with either of these products? I do believe that either will block the exterior noise, but I'm concerned that they may "deaden" my music room. All comments are welcome. BTW the floor is concrete. Thanks. Regards, barts |
With regard to carpet: do you have any down-firing subs? I have owned a few, and have experimented with them on wood floors and concrete floors, with and without carpet. Carpet vs. hard surface under a down-firing speaker may get different results. May also be true of speakers with down-firing ports or down-firing passive radiators. |
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Decided against green glue and acoustic drywall. For one thing, it isn't a glue, IIRC. I had some experience with low VOC elastomeric glue, and went with modern incarnations from Chemlink. Also, I suggest a supplier of commercial/industrial specialist drywall. That stuff has to make spec or there is hell to pay. I used Quietrock. Their 545 has a layer of sheet steel embedded into several (5?) distinct layers of drywall. It works. And it’s specced. Or you could go to the friendly folks who don’t know much at your local building store. |
Acoustic Sciences Corp. offers a fantastic product they named Wall Damp. It is part of a complete wall construction system, Wall Damp being a thin (1/16" iirc) viscoelastic material, available in 4" x 4" squares and long strips. I heard a mighty fine hi-fi in a room built using the complete ASC system, that of Audiogon member Folkfreak. Outstanding! |
In room treatment there is 3 possibilities: You pay 50,000 dollars for an acoustically engineered room or even morre... Or you buy costly acoustical materials and you made it yourself... But the cost will be a couple of thousand dollars mostly for quality materials.... But it will be a PASSIVE treatment made for the geometry and content of your room... (I used this passive way also but with cheap materials i dont have much money) But if your room is not ideal, with odd dimensions and one the speaker is at an odd place in a corner (like mine), you are in a really bad shape.... :) Passive treatment work in some degree, with some limit... But most people, dont know that it is possible to use ACTIVE controls to change the room acoustic.... Not by electronical equalizer.... But with a grid of ACTIVE generators connected to some grids of active resonators.... Then the sound image become totally holographic and completely decoupled from the speakers.... Yes it is possible, and the good news is that the cost is low.... My best to all... |
Others here have suggested it, but I will reiterate that the most significant positive thing you can do for a room's modal distribution is to design it with modal distribution in mind. With good H:W:D ratios you can do more to make a room sound good than any treatment added after the fact. Way more. Trying to fight bad room dimensions is a bandaid at best and phenomenally expensive if good. Spend some time reading some acoustics books on studio control room design to understand how to control first order reflections without treatment, and how to use treatment to fine-tune, not "fix" your room. "Room correction" EQ remedies anomalies at the spot where the measurement is taken and usually makes things sound worse elsewhere. You're in a unique position to fix your room problems at their root. It would be a shame to just put it back together the same way and add various treatments (some which may work, some which may not) that fit a visual aesthetic when good ratios, construction, and geometry look purposeful and beautiful all by themselves. |
Egan, you are absolutely right. The first thing one notices upon entering my music room is the quality of the silence. Not only are there no distracting noises, but the room has a positive quality of its own - sorry, but that’s the best description I can write. Could be as Tomic says, "the baseline noise floor of the room." I would add that books and articles on acoustics often discuss H x W x D in terms of opinion and rumour instead of science. The only way, IMO, is to do very many computer simulations. Cox and D'Antonio at Salford have done all this - all the heavy lifting. I am just the beneficiary. @tomic601 , I had the same experience at Quietrock. After talking with them I bit the bullet and paid the bucks. May your project prosper! |
Agree, IF luxury get the room dimensions correct - golden ratio , Fibbonachi sequence, yes!Then room noise floor The stereo illusion is fragile at best, I myself mostly a seated listener don’t mind 11 bands of analog EQ below 120 hz w typical room node centers and cut 2x boost. but of course there are other ways i find real living spaces often far exceed over treated dedicated rooms, not always but often. best to all |
Chorus, I suggest that you also consider the lights themselves. LED's and fluorescents tend to create electrical noise which can get back into your equipment - certainly through the line, but also perhaps through EM radiation. Does not apply to strips of bare LEDs, and maybe some other LED fixtures. I used 12V quartz track lighting throughout, powered by 20 little toroidal transformers mounted outside the room (in case they hummed). The electrician was great and did all the hard work, leaving me to sort out logic and connections. |
The editor of Stereophile had an interesting editorial regarding rooms that I totally agree with...a room often adds a sense of reality that renders digital "correction" unnecessary. Digital "nannies" might be useful if your room has no furniture and glass ceilings or you live in a dumpster, but, for example, digital bass correction puts in a slight delay and adds phase issues to a signal that isn't worth it. For my room, furnishings are all the correction I need...for you, buy stacks of bass traps and heavy curtains and you can reach for a sound devoid of life. |
Acoustical embedding are the more important..... More than mechanical and electrical one in power to deliver S.Q. Passive materials treatment are only HALF of the story.... Active device controls can make your audio system to be freed from the limitations of the room...(i mean non electronical device by the way) Almost nobody speak about that....Except some sellers of very costly device....It is not necessary to buy one if you know what to do..... Cost: peanuts..... "Generic" designed speakers dont have soul and body, without a "specific" room designed by you to be his working organ synchronizing with your ears.... :) |
One can split a 220VAC line and both are already on the same side of the buss, however if you have two high current monoblocks, the ground or “common” will not be able to carry the amperage that one will need for each amp. If you have a stereo amp and simply want to connect your low power equipment to the other line, it will work. If you have a 40 amp breaker, you’re in luck. Codes however, may be a problem. |
Thanks to all for the discussion/ideas of soundproofing, regards to chorus who I hope doesn't think I meant to hijack his thread. @tomic601 Totally agree with you that I'm looking for the lowest "noise floor" I can achieve in my music room, although not at the expense of making the room dead. @terry9 Thanks for the leads to other products I will consider. @eganmedia I have to live with with the room I have, I consider myself fortunate to have a room I can do whatever I want to. I have not heard anyone mention that all this soundproofing made the room dead. So, my original fear of over doing it to achieve the lowest noise floor seems to stand on it own and doesn't make the room dead, just quiet from invasive noise. Regards, barts |
handymann One can split a 220VAC line and both are already on the same side of the buss, however if you have two high current monoblocks, the ground or “common” will not be able to carry the amperage that one will need for each amp.If we are talking about residential use in the US, this does not make sense. A 240VAC line would consist of a pair of 120VAC lines each fed from a different bus. There’d be no way to have them on the same leg. NEC allows the 240VAC line to be split into two 120VAC lines with a shared neutral. Each 120VAC line must have its own appropriately sized breaker, and the breakers must be tied together so that both trip simultaneously. You would need to check with your local inspector to determine if such connections meet local code. |
This may be of use. https://www.acousticfields.com/ten-guidelines-for-room-acoustic-treatment/ i prefer natural absorption w rugs and furniture, hiding acoustic absorbers behind artwork, acoustical curtains if absolutely necessary, plants as diffusers and RPG wood diffusers. |
