Well, you’ve certainly got some great candidates, but as you well know at this level they’re all very good and it comes down to that magical thing called personal preference. If it’s me I’d go listen to the ones within an hour, and if there’s one that stands out I’d hope at that price the dealer would let you borrow the amp for a day or two (maybe when they’re closed) so you can demo it in your own system/room. If you don’t find “the one” that really does it for you I’d travel to hear the others and do the same thing. That’s how I’d do it anyway, and best of luck.
New Amp Advice
I'm considering replacing my amp in what I hope will be the last major upgrade for a long while. My current system is Roon Nucleus, dcs Bartok, Octave Jubilee preamp, Michi S5 amp, Sonus Faber Il Cremonese speakers, Audioquest Niagra 3000 power conditioner, Nordost Heimdall 2 cables, Clearaudio DC performance TT with Ortofon Cadenza bronze cart, Simaudio 610 LP phono stage. Room has been treated and is approximately app. 21x30. About 80% streaming from Qobuz or Tidal-the rest vinyl.
I like the performance of my system and spend at least a few hours every night listening. Made the very wise decision a few years ago to replace all the time I spent watching cable news with music. Varied taste in music-jazz, blues, R&B, country, old time rock, no rap, electronic and very little classical.
Logically, the Michi is the weak link but I think it performs at a very high level for its price, is extremely well built, and has plenty of power. Hard to describe specific improvements I'm looking for, maybe wider soundstage and better imaging.
I prefer to buy new and prefer hybrid or SS-ambivalent about the tube sound and, honestly, intimidated by the potential maintenance issues-I'm old and inept. My budget is approximately up to 40-45k, maybe a bit more or less depending on how smitten I am, but obviously happy to spend less. Exploring possibilities but only willing to make the investment if it produces a significant improvement. I've heard a couple of Macs-prefer what I have now-and the new Simaudio North 761-I like Sim products but honestly couldn't hear a significant improvement in my system.
I know I need to audition potential replacements so just trying to get a reasonable list of candidates. So far, considering Accuphase A-300, Audionet Maxx (intrigued by the soon to be released Schrodinger) Boulder 1161 (probably should wait for the new 1162 or 1163), Burmester 216, Bricasti M32, T+A 3000HV, Constellation Revelation Series 2 and Dan D'Ag s250-its a long list I need to narrow. The Dan, Constellation, Boulder and T+A are available at dealers within an hour or two-the others I'd have to travel to hear. Looking for a relatively neutral sound, I suppose, but sometimes I think, to paraphrase what Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography, you know it (the sound) when you hear it. This will be my last shot for a long while, that's what my financial advisor says, so I need to hit the target.
A long intro, but trying to anticipate questions any of you might raise. Thanks in advance for your thoughts- I respect the enormous wealth of knowledge on this forum.
52 responses Add your response
Why would you want to spend $40-45K? I guess you belong to the 1% Class. There is nothing wrong with your Michi amp. It is competently designed. All competently-designed amps will sound alike. I recommend the Fosi V3 Monos with two 48 volt power supplies - 300+wpc@2ohms for $500. Your system is excellent! If you really desire a change in sound quality buy a different pair of speakers, say MBL omni’s. |
Your speakers are pretty sensitive compared to many out there at 92dB/watt. Unless you listen at very high levels, you don't need many watts. and most of the time, I bet youre listening to less than one watt. Once clear advantage of buying a smaller amp is less heat into the room. I'd be thinking 50ish wpc or less if you don't turn it up. Also, make sure you consider your new amp listening at low volumes. it is much easier to assess the quality by how it performs in the low volume. Turning it up makes everything sound better. Jerry |
@zlone Mind expanding on your comment that the Audionet amp was very different from the Coda amp? How? Which Coda amp? Thanks! |
I’m at the airport, where do you live, I just invited myself over. I never heard your amp or speakers, but my instinct is to change the speakers, not the amp. The Stereophile review of that amp https://www.stereophile.com/content/rotel-michi-s5-power-amplifier makes me want it, despite the fact that neither you nor I need anywhere near that much power, it’s too heavy to handle, and I have a rule about avoiding potential fan noise, and, I prefer tube sound and am willing to buy my own tube testers and put up with them. It’s a big room and a big budget, I would go for speakers with no ports, no side or rear output, properly aimed and angled to deliver maximum primary sound waves (improved imaging your stated goal), minimum floor, ceiling, side wall, rear wall reflections. I would love to hear these sealed boxes in your space Seller says Rosewood, but I believe they are simply a red stain on a more common wood. I owned and loved the JSE Model II’s, loved them, but missed my Vintage Horns/15" Woofer I inherited from my uncle. I still listen to them at my friend’s home, a big room like yours in a Firehouse he lives in. My speaker preference is directional horns, large woofer, efficient to avoid need for amps with cooling fans and to allow alternate use of tube preamp and tube amp(s). I understand hesitation to get into tubes, however, efficient speakers provides rather than precludes the option. Once you hear those Model II’s in your space, then I would strip the drivers, and have my woodworker cover them with a select veneer, make them look as gorgeous as they sound. I put some info about JSE Model II’s on this site https://www.audiogon.com/systems/11418
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Appreciate all of the suggestions thus far and hope for more.
has anyone heard what the specifications and price might be on the new Audionet and the new Boulder amps that are coming out? That could be interesting. thanks again for the suggestions. Cheers. |
The incremental improvement possible over the Mich is very, very small ( unless you move to tubes) and it can control every speaker you might desire - they don't get much better. There is considerable room for improvement to your speakers, turntable and cartridge. and you didn't mention any subwoofers. |
Also, I tried spikes, with my JSE Model II’s, heard no advantage, changed them to 3 wheels (more weight/per wheel than 4, and auto-level, no shims needed) (and anti-tipping blocks in the rear corners). It is far more important to maintain ability to re-position speakers for advantageous imaging in a space for single or two listeners, I put something here about that too Toe-In Alternates, Stereo and Video
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Synergy could be the issue. Of the power amps you have mentioned Burmester could be the best option. I heard the 218 at a dealer with the SF Lilium and it was sublime! All associated electronics were Burmester(Pre/Phono/CD) TT was an upper level Clearaudio with Transparent cables. A system at this level deserves the minimum of 2 dedicated lines which was not mentioned. Maybe an upgrade in Power conditioning(Stromtank?) and cables(Vahalla 2) could "open things up". The first step is the finding the best synergy with amp/pre/speakers then work on the rest. |
I have a Coda #8 amp, version 1. Up for sale if there is interest. I recommend you read through this thread where @sfpeloton decided to go with the same Audionet amp. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pass-xa25-for-my-system He might have some more comments to share. My comments from that thread below.
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@kerrybh you have some fine choices in amps. Most would be end gamers for sure but I’ll just say I’ve heard the Bricasti M28’s and was VERY impressed. That would be my end game amp. The M32 are most likely overkill for your speakers unless you listen in a cathedral or want to listen to jet engines at 105dB or greater 😉 |
@lloydc Unless you have heard his system its very irresponsible to claim "minimal" improvements. An example of this was a SF Amati G5 paired with 2 Atoll AM 400/PR 400 and the results were disappointing at best. A McIntosh MA 12000 was substituted and the Amati came to life. My point is you can't minimize the importance of 1 component or cable change in a HEA system. |
I am curious of what an amp for 50K can do better than an amp for e.g., 5K. In a limited/smallish space. I always want to learn, even with my limited cognitive skills. I kind of understand why a Ferrari is 10 times the price of a Hyundai. (And I am on the market for an amp for a fraction of 5K, any info is somewhat relevant) |
Speaker placement and listening chair placement have much influence over soundstage and imaging. It can take weeks of trial & error - moving by inches to get it right. If you’re not satisfied with the dynamics, tone & timbre, that’s something else. My modest system jumped a few levels when I converted over to a later generation of Synergistic Research cabling. It all began with this review. Good luck! Enjoy the journey! |
What an amazing system you have. I can almost hear it. Obviously this has taken an incredible amount of time and effort to assemble. I’m an old guy as well. I stayed away from tubed amplifiers for forty years for the same reasons you state. Wow, what an incredible mistake that has been for me. When Audio Research offered an Auto biasing and soft start amp I instantly took the plunge. From that moment forward there was no going back. As you age I think experience allows you to appreciate the more nuanced and subtle aspects of life... and of course music. While I was really excited by a powerful kick drum or loud guitar solo as a young adult, I now get the subtitles of great performances and venues. After attending the symphony for over ten years in the seventh row center seats... the Audio Research amp changed my system from a sound spectacular to sounding like real music. Completely changed the character to sound natural and musical. There is a known synergy between Sonus Faber speakers... which I have and Audio Research. Given your budget you owe your self a trial. Find yourself a ARC dealer and have them bring over a set of Reference 160m mono blocks. They should set them up and leave them at your house for a week or two. This is what my dealer did. I left my old Pass x300 sitting next to it so I could swap in and out to decide which I wanted. Within a minute I realized there would be no swapping... they would stay. The reputation of tube amps has outlasted its useful life. With auto biasing and soft start these are very reliable amps... know I have put well over 5,000 hours of time without any hiccups. If you are getting absent minded, as I find myself... don't worry after two hours without a signal, the amp turns itself off.
Life is too short to compromise. |
@zlone You have the $18k Audionet monoblocks? |
can't get any more relevant than @ghdprentice's experience! |
@zlone Well, that one looks plenty nice! |
@sls883 Whoa! That’s a nice system! I am envious of the cables alone. 😀 The Coda is an excellent amp, the Audionet just suits my listening habits and my room a little better. |
@zlone Your system looks awesome. I'm sure it sounds great. The cat and dog seem to be enjoying it. :) |
I’ve heard that very fine Michi amp in a similar system and have to ask: Is there something actually lacking with the Michi or is its designation as weak link purely price based? Some products are simply much higher value than others. If one has money to burn, then no issue. That’s fine.
Personally the only issue I would have with the Michi is size and weight. I am only interested in down not up-sizing my system. |
''New Amp Advice'' see here Mike |
I just read through these responses and thanks to all who offered advice.I'm going to consider all of it-trying to figure it out is half the fun, and this exchange has given me some good information to think about. @ghdprentice I appreciate your always thoughtful advice and will give your observations careful consideration. I was a gearhead when I was young, then got away from it with kids, etc., got back into it about ten years ago and a little intimidated by some of it-appreciate your thoughts. Cheers and thanks to all. |
I just switched from a Boulder 866 (with DAC) to a D'Agostino Momentum 250MxV. Before making my selection, I listened closely to the Boulder 1061 and 1161, as well as the D'Agostino. All four were compared as amplifiers over several listening sessions using a Bartok APEX as a pre, DAC and streamer (the 866 sounded better with the Bartok APEX than with its internal DAC -- no surprise there, though I was rooting for the 866). I wanted to chime in to report simply that there were noticeable improvements from the 866, to the 1161 and also from the 1161 to the 1160 and the D'Agostino. I narrowed it down to the 1160 and the D'Agostino, which both sounded wonderful to me and noticeably better than the 866 (which I loved). I would have been happy with either, but ended up buying the latter for a number of reasons, including the fact that the 1160 would have required me to completely redo my set up -- rack, system placement, etc. -- and my room won't allow for that. In sum, I have never heard the Michi; from what I've read, I'm sure it sounds great. The 866 also sounds great. But I suspect that, as with my leap, the type of jump you are considering will likely allow for significant improvement in sound. |
@mapman you are right, I have not pinpointed a particular weakness with the Michi and have always thought it performed well, certainly at theprice point. as I have upgraded my system, the amp is no longer a match in terms of price. I know that price doesn’t always equal performance and I generally think to get a significant increase in performance You usually have to go up two or three times the price. my feelings won’t be hurt if the right conclusion is to stay put, just exploring the options and I appreciate your comments. |
To @sls883, if you don’t mind sharing a few details, what is that you feel your are missing or yearning more of from the Coda No V1. Are you effectively looking for a different type of sound and if so, can you describe a little more about what that might be, in your own words? Sure we’ve read the comments where some have jumped to the 16 and yet while I’ve not tried the no 8 personally or the newer 5.5, or S20 myself, I might have a chance soon to demo one of these and interested in your feedback on the no. 8. Thanks in advance for your reply. |
My advice is to try to get hone auditions for amplifiers that you are interested in hearing. We don’t know, what we don’t know and the only way to find out is through listening. You may come to the conclusion that what you have is enough or that you are correct that your current amplifier is your weak link. One of my close friends frequently asks me about certain components. I finally told him to stop asking my opinion, because only his ears count. One thing I’ve learned is no one can tell you what will work best in your system, your room, based on your preferences. |
@decooney I'm not at all unhappy with the Coda No 8. It's more than likely the last amp I'll own unless I live to be really old. Zlone had made the comment that he preferred the Audionote over the Coda, so I was just commenting that I'll have to be happy with what I have. I have no urge to upgrade. |
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Got it. While I rotate both, mono block tube amps and Class A solid state amps, there can be a preference for both for different reasons. Yes, AudioNote tube amps having a notably different sound profile compared to Pass, Coda. Slow vs fast, plush and smooth versus huge, open, dynamic and detailed, whatever you like - it really comes down to a matter of "preference". Preference can vary greatly from one individual to the next. Listening to both at a local audio store well stocked with both types is becoming a rare experience any more. Deciding a direction from forum member replies is a crapshoot at best imo. |
There appears to be a lot of love for the Michis; regarding sound quality, they present a good value/performance option; however, they are not in the class of the amps on your wishlist—anyone who tells you other needs to see an audiologist. I directly compared the Michi monoblocks vs. the Luxman M10X; the Luxman was clearly better in every aspect. Best of luck on your journey!! |
This guy is looking for an end game amp. As usual we get, treat the room, get new speakers, change something else. Obviously, you want a new amp, and are just looking for someone to help you justify it. Your current amp is amazing, but with everything audio, there "maybe" something better. Have never listened to your amp. But I have used both the Benchmark and Constellation. Both are amazing! There is no wrong choice. While we are spending so much money, have you looked at the Burmeister amps? They are the size of a dog house, but are also amazing! My advice, find out what is local to you, give them a listen, buy what moves you! A lot of shops will also allow you to trade in your Michi. |
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@kerrybh burmester without question |
It seems to me you have a very nice system. Some have suggested upgrading your speakers instead. I disagree. Those are particularly nice speakers and it would cost a great deal more than $40k to meaningfully improve upon them - if that’s even doable. I have found more expensive speakers to not necessarily be “better”. Just bigger in scale or complexity. Many have recommended replacement amps as requested. But I personally don’t think your amp is the weak link. If there is one - it might be in your Heimdahl cables. I’m a fan of Nordost and many will suggest Heimdahl is the sweet spot. Personally, I think you might be surprised if you auditioned Tyr II or Valhalla IIs in your system. You might find another level of resolution and musicality. An audition would cost nothing. And, if you moved ahead, you’d still be way below your proposed budget. Lastly, I would politely suggest that if you did move upstream on your amp, you’d likely want to do the same with cables anyway. My suspicion is there’s a lot more available from your current amp. Enjoy the music, mgrif |
kerrybh, jefferyw, Take a look at this review about the Michi 8. Rotel Michi M8 monoblock power amplifier Page 2 | Stereophile.com ozzy |
I think I'll have to be happy with my Coda No 8, V1 for some time. It seems to work well with the rest of my system.