Moving to separates

Great question, and yes, a separate amplifier will very, very likely yield an obvious step up in terms of bass detail and overall solidity of the sound. I recall going from an integrated amp years ago to my first separate amp, and wow, no going back after that...it was an immediate step up. Now the question is which separate to get!

I’m gonna guess here with your aversion against cables and your inability to hear difference in power upgrades. There wouldn’t be much noticeable improvement on your current situation.
the question I’m asking is what is your speaker and before you go start buying an amps get a speaker. That will do justice to that new fancy dancy amplifier you’re gonna buy.

but, yes, I along with practically every single other person has noticed an improvement when they went to separate.

if you click on my name and go to my profile you will see a list of my components. It is also suggested that you do the same. There are people on this site that like to look at that for they feel it will help them help you which it will. Enjoy the musical journey.!

Ok, I have added some photos to my profile.

Well, I made the switch way back in ’94 in the oldy but moldy days of Dolby Prologic, and the AVR I had been using was a JVC (I forget which model). What I switched over to was a B&K HT digital preamp, a Cary SLA 70 Signature (amp) for the left and right speakers, a 30 wpc Rotel amp (I cannot remember the model, but later I guess I can check) for the rear speakers, and an identical Rotel amp, but in bridged mono, for the center channel speaker. At the time I was listening to a Carver CDP.

This was over 30 years ago, but as I remember the main improvement was not in the HT experience, but listening to CDs was more enjoyable. I don’t even do HT anymore as sometime in the later ’90s all my upgrades went into my two channel system.

If this is just for HT I wouldn’t bother unless the AVR just doesn’t have sufficient power, which it probably does. If it’s at all for 2 channel then get a stereo integrated amp and run the front L/R preouts from the AVR to the HT bypass or other unused line input on the integrated. Reason being that the preamp sections of mass market AVRs suck and preamps are important, so if you just replace the amp the preamp section of the AVR becomes a huge bottleneck to performance and using an integrated amp gets the AVR completely out of the signal path for 2 channel, which is what you want. Hope this helps.

. . . so anyway, OP, after that initial upgrade from the AVR to the B&K pre and the Cary amp, over a period of some time that gave me the luxury(?) of being able to replace my separates one at a time. Which I did. (And if I remember, when I started upgrading my separate components was when I started giving up on HT.) I first replaced the Cary amp with a pair of ARC monoblocks (I was still probably doing HT after I did that) and that was another improvement. Then in ’99 I found a local dealer who let me try out a second hand (2 channel) Cary preamp that he had, and that was one of the most noticeable improvements I ever made. But being it was a two channel preamp and I didn’t feel like buying any more processors, this was when I got completely out of HT.

Since then I have made further upgrades in preamps and amps, all of which have had their attributes, but being able to make those further changes on an incremental basis was another benefit of having separates.

Yes. I added a Rotel 250wpc amp to my system long ago... just blows away those integrated amps. Well worth it. 

I went from a Rotel integrated (RA1572, I think) to separates (see virtual system). The main reason was more control, particularly with phonostage. However, the comparison is not fair, as I replaced a 2K integrated with 15-20K in separates. Do they sound better than a 15-20K integrated? No idea. Accordingly, it is important to compare approaches on equal footing, while typically the change from integrated to separates also entails serious price jump. 

Generally it’s all about cost. A $10k integrated is going to beat a $3k separates. If you are going from a cheap integrated to a mid level separates then you’re on the right track. However, you could also consider a mid or high level integrated as well. Nowadays there are many good integrateds from various companies available for you to choose from. Gryphon, Vitus, Pass Labs, etc. and the list goes on.

Not all watts are created equal, and all certainly don’t sound the same. Most AVRs are sort of a jack of all trades, packed with conveniences, functions, and inputs, with high watt ratings, but not necessarily focused on best audio.

Not all separates are a best effort from the manufacturer, but many are, and typically have the lion’s share of advantages over an AVR. Each separate unit has it’s own power supply, which can be fairly significant, and many tend to use superior parts and design, and often have a more refined sound as a result. The physical separation into it’s own chassis can also help improve sound. Separates also offer more flexibility with matching to another separate amp or preamp...it adds another set of interconnect cables and cost to the equation, but can actually help find tune your preferred sound.

Regardless of the wattage rating, all the separate amps I’ve owned were simply capable of doing a better job of driving the reactive load that a loudspeaker poses, and some speakers pose a tougher load than others. Many cheaper amps in AVRs and receivers are rated by driving a test resistor, not a speaker, and aren’t at their best when pushed hard or challenged by a tough load. (My separate amps have been - Hafler DH500, New York Audio Labs Moscode 300, Discrete Technology LS-2, Mitsubishi DA-A30, Stromberg Carlson ASR-120, Dynaco 70, and now twin modified Dynaco 70s with VTA boards biamped, driven with a Lazarus tube preamp).

An audio buddy of mine recently switched from a big Onkyo Integra receiver to a Linn LK85 with a Schitt Saga 2 preamp, and was astounded at how much better the Linn amp and Schitt preamp sounded. He’s now a convert. Sometimes it’s just synergy between components, but in general I think you’ll find separates to be a step up. If you get a separate amp, you may find that adding a separate preamp down the road sounds better too.

Agree with @ryder on the statement of the integrated. Many times, using an AVR as a 2ch preamp is not an optimal solution, and you won't get the best performance out of a better 2ch separate amp. It may be better to have a high quality integrated amp with a good preamp stage built in and home theater bypass so the analog signal is completely processed by the integrated vs the AVR.

My current system is two channel combined with surround sound via my preamp’s HT bypass. I use a Jeff Rowland Corus preamp for my 2-channel and Trinnov Altitude 16 AV preamp. Out of curiosity I took the Corus out and only used the Trinnov. The soundstage shrunk, less detail, and I thought I lost some musicality. Not night and day differences, but enough differences that I could never use the Trinnov as my 2-channel preamp. Some believe the preamp is the heart of a system.

I made the jump years ago by going from an AVR to an amp driven the AVR, then to a combo dac/preamp which bypassed the avr entirely, then to a pre and dac separates.  . My avr was not as good as yours. The biggest gain to be had is getting the avr out of the two channel system entirely (although I still have an AVR for HT use and use the external amps and speakers for HT, but the AVR/TV is off for two channel listening). The DAC and pre in the AVR are good, but not as good as well selected separates. Several small steps result in a big step. Honestly, you really need to try it and see how it sounds to your ears on your speakers.

BTW, I admire your room treatment and the effort you put in to improve your room before spending on electronics. I need to do a better job at that.

An AVR contains EVERYTHING in the same box, hence the inevitable close interaction between all the parts in it. Separates do just the opposite, separating all the parts so there is no negative interactions. The result should always be a purer, cleaner sound as long as carefully assembled with adequate cabling. It's expensive and  time consuming to build but plenty worth it imo.

The best is to decide what your long term plan is. For me, I have two main systems. My stereo system and my home theatre system. I went to separates for both of them a long time ago and I stick to A/B amps. For example, in my home theater, I upgraded my pre-amp twice, and my speakers twice, but, the old ADCOM GFA-5503 three channel amp, and the old ADCOM GFA-585LE 2 channel amp from the 90’s are still in service - but, I did have to service them because of their age and some leaking caps. If you plan to go separates step by step, then, using your AVR as a preamp, and starting your journey with amp separates with a lot of power that you plan to keep for a super long time is for me the correct way to start. This is exactly how I started with my stereo system. I bought the one ADCOM 585LE and used my old Sony Receiver as a preamp. When I build my first home theatre system, I moved the ADCOM 585LE to the Home Theatre and bought a matching 3 channel amp. In the mean time, I decided to go to two McIntosh MC275 tube amps for my Stereo, etc.... So, separates can give you a lot of flexibility - especially with amps, which you can keep for decades. 

I don't plan on replacing the Integra any time soon.  It's the flagship model, the DRX-8.4.  It has Dirac, which works wonders.  And it sounds really good.  I don't do vinyl, source is digital (my computer), and I do need video so an integrated amp is not in the cards.  Haven't added or upgraded anything in 8 months so I'm feeling the itch, but an amp is about the only thing that seems reasonable.

How about you dump that computer as your digital source and look into INNUOS. https://innuos.com/pulse-mini/
getting a dedicated music streamer can be a real eye-opener.

Nice listening room you have there.

@gkelly If it is bit-perfect digital all the way to the Integra, how would the source make any difference?

skeptikal,

"I don't plan on replacing the Integra any time soon.  It's the flagship model, the DRX-8.4.  It has Dirac, which works wonders.  And it sounds really good."

I hear you. My Trinnov is very good as an AV preamp, but not for 2-channel.

Regarding the source...why don't you try to get a home audition and see if it makes a difference in your system?

I do need video so an integrated amp is not in the cards.

You would still be using the AVR for video/multichannel and the integrated would take over for stereo, and you could toggle between the two with the push of a button.  But if you need/want the Dirac for 2-channel as well then yes you couldn’t use an integrated amp.  By the way, if it’s still available this McCormack is an excellent 5-channel amp and is a screaming bargain at the price. 

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/650104997-mccormack-dna-ht-5/
 

I am in no ways, smart enough to explain to you how a bunch of computer Nerds, who happened to like music. Were able to take a bunch of wires, capacitors, Diodes, transistors, toroidal transformers and put it in a box, mix it all together with some fairy dust To get glorious music to come out of it. I have no clue 🕵️. But apparently they have and and all I can say is thank you very much for your contribution to society.

… but an amp is about the only thing that seems reasonable

High-end audio is a small niche market above box store offerings, and can get very expensively “unreasonably” quickly. For Sonics, the entire audio chain matters: including source(streamer+DAC), preamplifier, amplifier, speakers, and cabling.

While the OP seems to have a great surround system, simply switching from the internal Integra amp to an external amp will have limited effect as the rest of the audio chain will likely limit Sonics. Usually it’s much better to split surround and 2channel audiophile systems as it’s extremely difficult to lift 2 channel Sonics to satisfying levels.

So to answer the OP’s question a better amp would likely be sonically better, but trying to squeeze great 2 channel sonics from a surround system is extremely difficult as better 2 channel components simply perform better.

I should clarify that on my computer I have a mix of stereo and 5.1 music, and they play randomly and intermixed.  Windows is set to 7.1.  Kodi upmixes songs to 7.1 automatically given whatever the current song contains.  I know most of y'all seem to like stereo music but I would never give up the surround sound.  Even when upmixing is required, it sounds much better to me.  And songs that are mastered to 5.1 are absolutely fantastic.  Envelops me from all directions.  This is why I am resistant to streamers, integrated amplifiers, and moving away from the Integra + Dirac.  Sounds so good, I'm not even sure I need an external amp.  Would be a real bummer if I spent the money and couldn't tell the difference.  Money might be better spent on speakers. Or a new house, lol.

Buy a good intergrated amp, more bang for the bucks.

An interesting topic.  I do have seperates, mono block s/s amplifers and tube pre amplifer.  I am now testing an integrated platform and have been impressed!  Not all assumptions are true in audio.  This is enough of a postive change to move me to the integrated.

Thanks for clarifying — that helps a lot. Since you listen to multichannel music I’m gonna reiterate my recommendation for the McCormack amp I linked above, and for only $800 I’m confident you’ll hear a substantial improvement over the amps in your AVR.

If motivated, one can opt for a distribution amp with 6x 2chan. after your pre.

Since some can either run off it's buss line and have a different source for one or more.

Buss line to a separate amp or receiver line in.

Put anything you want in between either.

I like mine. ;) 😎

I went from a top of the line Denon AVR putting out 125 WPC at 8 ohms to Rotel separates.  My Rotel RB1582 MKII amp puts out 200 WPC into 8 ohms and 350 into 4 ohms.  The bigger Rotel amp was too big for my shelf setup.  I noticed better bass control and more headroom with my Arendal 1723 towers that run at 4 ohms.  Plus the separates look cool which matters to me.  I now have all separate components in my main music only system.  Makes it easier to tweak and upgrade components over time.  A great part of the hobby in my experience.  

Moving away from Audio/Video receivers was one of, if not THE biggest improvements in sound quality for me. Specifically, I went from a Sony AVR, then an Integra AVR at 90 or 100 wpc (forgot the model number) to an NAD 316BEE integrated amplifier at 40 wpc.  I probably could have been quite happy with that integrated, had I stopped reading the audio forums and reviews and the for-sale ads.

Almost all AVR's lie about RMS power. They show 100w, but that is 2ch mode, in all ch mode, they put out 60w or less. If you have ever opened up an AVR compared to a 2ch integrated, it's amazing how much stuff is packed into the AVR.

Yes, dollar for dollar you should notice an upgrade with separates. The big downfall of separates are all the cords. With an HT setup, you are talking about a dozen RCA cables, a dozen speaker cables, then all the power cables. 

Have an TOTL Marantz AVR running 9.4.2, it's amazing for what it is, if the music is Atmos encoded it's cool, but my 2ch (separates) sounds so much better. 

@bassbuyer Thank you, you are in almost my exact situation.  I also have Arendal 1723's.  That is helpful.

@skeptikal -  There has been a lot of good suggestions and info supplied already.  I I looked at the pictures you took of the room as well.  Looks good, nice acoustic treatments as well.  (Although the two small sofas directly in front of the speakers are probably not helping things.)   After being in this hobby for 40+ years, the best suggestion I can make to you right now is to borrow a decent stereo power amp (for the front L/R speakers) and set of decent interconnect cables and give it a try.  While upgrading to a better preamp, streamer, etc. should (and I stress should) be an approvement over the AVR, don't worry about them yet.  Start with the 2 channel amp. You might like it, you might not.  Either way, it may give you a better idea of what direction to go.

In the end, it is all about what you like and makes you happy.

... my 2 cents...  

Jeff

I'd suggest getting out and listening to few systems either through local shops or audio members. If you arent sure if you would be able to tell the difference the first thing you need are a few good reference points. Otherwise you might spend significant money for gains that you might not even care about hearing.

Good luck and have fun.

My first system growing up was separates.  A few years ago, I thought about going the other way and I bought a Hegel H390 and it really sounded good, but I went back to separates just a couple years later.   I changed for a change in the second and no other reason.  I guess I’ll reinstall the Hegel this weekend and double triple check.

first off find a high end dealer that can "loan" you a few amp's to try in your system. I didn't see where you mentioned your budget, nor what you wish to improve. Here on Audiogon, The Music Room, etc. you can find a variety of used power amplifiers (two or three or five or seven channels) that can add to your listening experience. Do your front speakers allow for bi-wiring/bi-amping? What is their impedence curve? Most A/V receivers don't double the power into lower ohms, so if the speakers go into lower 6 ohm or 4 ohm territory, a power amp that doubles from 8 to 4 ohms will definitely sound better than the current setup. There are many variables, but if you are looking for "oomph" and bass slam I personally can recommend Krell & Aragon. Krell make some nice A/V style amps that are less in the A/AB power output than their bigger amps, but can still drive lower impedence speakers. Have fun looking for the next improvement to you system, and be sure to listen to it with your normal music.

the most expensive and subject to the most cost cutting will be the power amp section. Typically the power supply is a very large transformer (high cost), several very large energy storing capacitors.  heat sinks, power transistors.

Receivers/avrs are very cost effective in terms of functionality provided, but cost cutting will occur in the power amp section. The cost cutting would manifest itself as the amp not delivering the current required to meet output specks. Most loadspeakers hit a low impedance somewhere near 100 hz, Thus this would result in your 100 wpc delivering say  20 watts. It would be noriceable,

Take the preamp out to a decent 200 or more wpc  amp and you may here a substantial difference, dependent upom the speakers.

Thus when people say that speakers are the most important to upgrade, there is an asterisk that should say “dependent upon power amp specs.

Love this topic!  Over last 30 years I went from a 5 channel Sony consumer to a 7 channel Arcam receiver with Sonus Fbr Conerto surround spkrs system to to a 9 channel Onkyo consumer because the Arcam kept breaking.  Then to a Parasound Halo A5 with P7 pre, then added a Marantz AV 8805. Then upgraded cables to mid grade and now the Surround is complete and any upgrades are not worth the cost to me.  It sounds awesome with movies and pretty good with music.  A serious 2 channel is my next step in a separate room with separates.  No technical data here, just 56 yrs of listening to music.

I have the following integrated amp replacement stack from Schitt Audio in my office. It is my second best system.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

My DAC is the Schitt Yggi+ OG, but I would get the lower cost DAC offered in the Gigastack package since it is also very good. I also got the Kara F preamp and had the Freya+ previously. I like the Kara F more.

It is as good as the following gear I had previously (maybe a bit better and more features for sure)

- 8k amp, 9k amp, 7k preamp, 15k DAC and streamer, 8k integrated amp 7k integrated amp

The Wotan amp is one of the most powerful amps I have owned. It needed about 2 months of heavy play to sound as good as it does now.

You also get a 15-day home trial period to hear it before you commit. Though the amp and DAC will need more time to sound their best.

I have considered an integrated amp to replace my separates, with which I am happy (incl an Odyssey Khartago++ amp). Why? Amp/preamp synergy in one box, eliminating interconnects. Two are on my short list because they "play well" with my Vandersteen Treo CT speakers:

1 - Aesthetix Mimas

2 - Ayre AX-5 / Twenty

3 - A few others including Constellation and Soulution, which are quite a bit more expensive and therefore out of reach, though excellent.

I like the idea of simplifying my system to just an integrated plus DAC (maybe even internally...Aesthetix does a good DAC card), and streamer and CD player.

OR— I will got the other way and get monoblocks! Oy. Choices, choices.

@OP. If you are not interested in two channel audio, I would leave things as is. Congratulations on your room treatment. You are losing some of the benefit of it by having furniture covered in reflective materials and also the very large table between the couches. I'm presuming you move the monitor on the arm out of the way when listening to music.

Audio is audio and video is video. Putting 2 channel through a video system is a  big compromise. Now if you are talking 2 channel audio, an integrated amp will be more cost effective (and save space) since there are less boxes and cables, but separates will provide more flexibility, and probably offer the highest potential power output with separate monoblocks if your speakers or room requires it.